Clan Military Logistics - Wyter Magic

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Some Wyters have Rune Points, which function normally, which suggests they are at least initiates.

I've not thought about that point. Thanks.

[davecake]

51 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

which it could just be commanded to DI - if necessary.

I don’t really like the idea of anyone being commanded to DI on command. Opens a big can of worms. And wyters already have  big, much more well defined, list of powers. 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Wyters of Temples are initiates, as they are Temple Guardians.

Are they? Allied spirits are initiates, not sure that temple wyters are. I don't think that they should have DI. It's too risky for a community spirit to cripple itself like that.

50 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don’t really like the idea of anyone being commanded to DI on command.

I agree, you don't get to compel anyopne or anything to spend of POW unless you are a vampire.

Edited May 28, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[davecake]

In the general spirit of trying to interpret a lot of info from the dense but lacking in detail info in the Bestiary, I want to look at the  example wyters in the Bestiary.

i don’t think the mechanic of ‘spending POW to get big magic’ is the mechanic you be looking at to work out how wyters normally work in warfare, or anything but extremis. The wyter is deeply weakened, and that weakens the community, and it is hard to recover and seldom timely. It is the equivalent of eg permanent reduction in clan Magic rating in Hero Quest, or at least significant temporary. You try to avoid it, and when it happens it’s better than having the clan killed etc but it’s still a heavy price to pay. You do it only to prevent worse things. You don’t do it as part of your normal strategy, you do it when your normal strategy has gone wrong.

DI even less. DI risks the destruction of the wyter, which is in effect the destruction of the clan as an entity, every time (if it’s initiate DI). You do it only when the destruction of the community is already a possibility. 

But various other things to note.

1) wyters can engage in spirit combat etc, and this helps protect against, among other things, attacking wyters. Consider it part of your units MgF in Dragon Pass - even if it makes no difference offensively, still useful. They can also be used to provide magical attacks on enemy leaders - the priest can cast his spells using the wyters POW. And many case manifest physically in an imposing manner. All very useful as clan defences or on a HeroQuest. 

2) wyters can have their own Rune Points - and generally will have a fair few points, and thus is able to cast them with a large POW, and this is effectively at least adding an extra Rune level to the community, potentially much more. 

2) wyters can provide the whole clan with some special magic (as Snake Daughters provide Creative Fissure). Usually a single spell, but it can be pretty nice. (Note that a powerful Create Fissure is very effective battlefield magic!) Regimental wyters often have spells such as Morale, which is very effective. Even if wyters do nothing directly, they can make a big difference.

4) I think dedicated ‘offensive’ wyters linked to a magical unit generally alsohave a special power that is offensive but does not cost POW, similar to the way She That Strikes From Afar can mass cast Madness for magic points. Probably the wyter of the Eaglebrown warlocks might similarly cast Lightning or Thunderbolt. STSFA can act as a Large Lune as well, and so on. 

5). The wyters that appear as Dragon Pass unit spirits are more than just wyters, and involve the mysterious techniques of many Illuminated magicians working together. Such wyters will have multiple powerful magicians (and whatever spirits they may be able to supply) defending it, and feeding it magic points. In such a circumstance, the power of the wyter are very extensively leveraged. When a Minor Class unit magically attacks using her as their wyter, She That Strikes From Afar will be powerfully defended against magic attack, and able to cast, over the duration of an attack, Madness on literally hundreds of people - while multiple other spirits and magicians, follow through to cause huge damage to the unit while mos5 are incapacitated by Madness. 

And what’s more, they can do so without expending POW, only Rune Points and magic points, which means they can probably do it multiple times a season without weakening STSFA.

 

[EpicureanDM]

I've somehow missed during this discussion that while wyters in the Bestiary have Rune Points included in their listings, the rules say that wyters cast Rune magic using their POW rather than Rune Points. Why exactly do they bother having Rune Points, then? Can Rune Points be used for something other then casting Rune magic?

EDIT: Is it to measure how many points of Rune magic spells a spirit has access to? So a spirit with 8 Rune Points has 8 Rune magic spells? That doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that a GM would leave to chance (e.g. a GM wants designs a powerful Snake Daughter with 11 particular Rune spells, but only rolls a "9" on 4d6, so they change their concept to fit the random roll). 

Edited May 28, 2019 by EpicureanDM

[PhilHibbs]

19 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

I've somehow missed during this discussion that while wyters in the Bestiary have Rune Points included in their listings, the rules say that wyters cast Rune magic using their POW rather than Rune Points. Why exactly do they bother having Rune Points, then? Can Rune Points be used for something other then casting Rune magic?

I'd much rather use a Rune Point than a point of POW!

[Kloster]

21 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

I've somehow missed during this discussion that while wyters in the Bestiary have Rune Points included in their listings, the rules say that wyters cast Rune magic using their POW rather than Rune Points. Why exactly do they bother having Rune Points, then? Can Rune Points be used for something other then casting Rune magic?

I've not yet read the bestiary, so I can't be sure, but for me, Rune Points can be regained. POW points are spent and must be given again by members of the community.

[EpicureanDM]

16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'd much rather use a Rune Point than a point of POW!

I'm sure that wyters would too if they had the option. Do they?

Naturally, the Bestiary contains Kogui, a village deity who breaks the general rule by specifically stating that it can spend Rune Points on certain Rune spells. So Kogui can spend both Rune Points and POW on Rune spells, I guess. 

C'mon, Chaosium. *rubs eyes*

Edited May 28, 2019 by EpicureanDM

[EpicureanDM]

3 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I've not yet read the bestiary, so I can't be sure, but for me, Rune Points can be regained. POW points are spent and must be given again by members of the community.

I realize now that people haven't read this paragraph from the Bestiary's entry for wyters. This same language appears on pg. 286 of RQG:

Quote

The wyter can cast any Rune spell or spirit magic spell known by its priest (assuming the priest is within range of the wyter). A wyter spends points of its characteristic POW instead of Rune points when casting Rune spells with a chance of success equal to its CHAx5.

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by EpicureanDM

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'd much rather use a Rune Point than a point of POW!

1 hour ago, EpicureanDM said:

I'm sure that wyters would too if they had the option. Do they?

Apparently so.

On 4/7/2019 at 1:29 PM, Jason Durall said:

Those wyters described with Rune points can use those Rune points in place of characteristic POW, and can recover their Rune points in the same fashion as adventurers. 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Austin]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Can a Wyter DI?

Maybe another way to think about this is that a wyter using its powers is a Divine Intervention? Given the scope involved, so much beyond what most mortal worshipers could achieve.

[EpicureanDM]

Thanks for digging that up, @PhilHibbs. The answer could be nudging some annoying, follow-up questions in the back of my mind, but I'll ignore that feeling for now.

[PhilHibbs]

The way I see it, a Wyter will have a Rune Point pool that it can use like an initiate, and if that runs out, it can use its POW. As to why a wyter wouldn't always have as many RP as it has CHA is a mystery, surely it makes sense to keep the RP at maximum to avoid wasted POW. Adventurers tend to have RP much lower than their CHA only because they haven't had time to stack POW into RP. I'd expect any wyter that's been around for a generation or two to have capped out its RP. In order to explain that, there would have to be some balancing factor that keeps the RP down.

I suspect that only POW can be used for the spell replication trick, and not RP. Or, it can spend permanent RP to do it. In effect you get a "Replicate" stackable, on-use spell that copies a spell onto another community member. Oooh, Bless Pregnancy... nah, keeps the wyter's powers tied up for too long. Unless a small group with a powerful wyter retreat into a temple's protection for the duration of the pregnancies. I imagine an itinerant group of crones with an ancient fertility wyter moving once a year to a new community and bringing its blessings in return for protection.

Maybe they came to Clearwine in 1603...

Edited May 28, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[davecake]

Thank you to Phil for digging up the clarification from Jason. This wyter POW vs RP thing bothered me so I asked Jason for clarification a while ago. Still a bit confused - sometimes a wyter spends POW, some times RP, sometimes a mere magic point, to cast a Rune Spell.

and we haven’t even got onto sorcery! My suspicion is the wyters of largely sorcerous magical units like the Free Philosophers and Sir Naribs Company substitute for the old Multispell manipulation, allowing an extra target per magic point or so, but that’s still very speculative. 

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

I don't see Ancestor worship giving access to DI. Perhaps have I deviated from rules, but this is my perception.

If Ancestor Worship gives DI, I would assume it would have to be germane to worship of ones ancestors... perhaps the ability to manifest a great ancestor briefly... As the ancestor will not be in full possession (pun intended, surprise!) of his new senses a penalty mightt be in order. 

[Kloster]

36 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

If Ancestor Worship gives DI, I would assume it would have to be germane to worship of ones ancestors... perhaps the ability to manifest a great ancestor briefly... As the ancestor will not be in full possession (pun intended, surprise!) of his new senses a penalty mightt be in order. 

In fact, my reasoning is that when you worship ancestors, you don't worship a god (I know trolls have Kyger Litor as an ancestor), but ... ancestors. Thus, there is no god to intervene, so no DI.

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

I don't see Ancestor worship giving access to DI. Perhaps have I deviated from rules, but this is my perception.

They don't in the rules, but most people I know will send an Ancestral Spirit to help for a Divine Intervention.

 

Firshala and Mistress Sazdorf get DI, but the DI just incarnates Firshala or Mistress Sazdorf. Maybe that's the way to go. Your Wyter incarnates the Hero or Founder.

Edited May 28, 2019 by soltakss

[Bill the barbarian]

Agreed Kloster and soltakss, strictly conjecture.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Are they? Allied spirits are initiates, not sure that temple wyters are.

There is a strong likelihood that they were initiates or ifbefore they passed on and were summoned.

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that they should have DI. It's too risky for a community spirit to cripple itself like that.

Yes. A Rune Lord's DI wouldn't be that disastrous.

 

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

I don’t really like the idea of anyone being commanded to DI on command. Opens a big can of worms. And wyters already have  big, much more well defined, list of powers. 

 

15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I agree, you don't get to compel anyopne or anything to spend of POW unless you are a vampire.

Under Wyter it says  that the priest they're attached to gets to tell the wyter to cast spells, attack enemies, etc...

Wyters lack INT, so they're not capable of deciding whether an action is good, bad, sound judgement, etc

And, lastly, I wouldn't expect such a request to happen except in the most dire of cases, as in, almost out of POW, and the entire regiment is about to get wiped anyway (and, no-one in the regiment can DI). Huge avalanche that's about to take everyone (and everything) out. (not a great example, but it just came to mind)

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

In fact, my reasoning is that when you worship ancestors, you don't worship a god (I know trolls have Kyger Litor as an ancestor), but ... ancestors. Thus, there is no god to intervene, so no DI.

DI doesn't mean that a Divine Entity suddelnly shows up and automatically saves the party. It just means that an aspect of the entity grants a little bit of its power by taking some from the caller, to help it do something that it is capable of, but the caller isn't able to do (or, sacrificed POW for RPs, or has enough CHA, etc.) In the RGQ example, all that is given from the DI is a 6pt Lightning (with the loss of only 1 RP - would have been a bit more sucky if that cost 10RP/POW -b ut maybe the GM would have adjusted the Lightning). Said Lightning did 6D6 - 20pts of damage.. which just happens to hit the head. If the dice had've been nasty, 10RP/POW could have been lost for a measly 5pts of damage, and thus the DI was almost a complete waste of time!

I'd say - Ancestor Spirits would be quite limited in their abilities to help - much more so than the gods. Maybe cast a couple of spells, or enter spirit combat or something... But, sometimes, something is better than nothing.

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Under Wyter it says  that the priest they're attached to gets to tell the wyter to cast spells, attack enemies, etc...

Wyters lack INT, so they're not capable of deciding whether an action is good, bad, sound judgement, etc

Fair point.

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

DI doesn't mean that a Divine Entity suddelnly shows up and automatically saves the party. It just means that an aspect of the entity grants a little bit of its power by taking some from the caller, to help it do something that it is capable of, but the caller isn't able to do (or, sacrificed POW for RPs, or has enough CHA, etc.) In the RGQ example, all that is given from the DI is a 6pt Lightning (with the loss of only 1 RP - would have been a bit more sucky if that cost 10RP/POW -b ut maybe the GM would have adjusted the Lightning). Said Lightning did 6D6 - 20pts of damage.. which just happens to hit the head. If the dice had've been nasty, 10RP/POW could have been lost for a measly 5pts of damage, and thus the DI was almost a complete waste of time!

I'd say - Ancestor Spirits would be quite limited in their abilities to help - much more so than the gods. Maybe cast a couple of spells, or enter spirit combat or something... But, sometimes, something is better than nothing.

What I understand is that Ancestor spirits are not divine, and are thus prevented to perform divine actions, such as Divine Intervention. I perfectly understand that it can be understood your way. OGWV.

[davecake]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Wyters lack INT, so they're not capable of deciding whether an action is good, bad, sound judgement, etc

I don't know where you go that at all - all three example wyters in the bestiary have an INT stat. And I think many provide moral or tactical guidance as part of their role. 

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Under Wyter it says  that the priest they're attached to gets to tell the wyter to cast spells, attack enemies, etc..

The phrasing used in the RQ Bestiary is 'direct', not command. They can tell the wyter what they would like it to do, but I don't think the wyter is compelled to do it. I don't think the priest could command the wyter to act against its own cult, for example. 

[PhilHibbs]

28 minutes ago, davecake said:

The phrasing used in the RQ Bestiary is 'direct', not command. They can tell the wyter what they would like it to do, but I don't think the wyter is compelled to do it. I don't think the priest could command the wyter to act against its own cult, for example. 

Interesting. If a wyter's priest is illuminated, but the wyter isn't, that presents interesting situations. Also I wonder how successful the God Learners were at manipulating wyters.