Clan Military Logistics - Wyter Magic

[Pentallion]

17 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

Under Wyter it says  that the priest they're attached to gets to tell the wyter to cast spells, attack enemies, etc...

Wyters lack INT, so they're not capable of deciding whether an action is good, bad, sound judgement, etc

And, lastly, I wouldn't expect such a request to happen except in the most dire of cases, as in, almost out of POW, and the entire regiment is about to get wiped anyway (and, no-one in the regiment can DI). Huge avalanche that's about to take everyone (and everything) out. (not a great example, but it just came to mind)

The Eleven Lights just brought down Skyfire upon you and being Fazzur Wideread, your standard must be saved at all costs so you expend your wyters Power to erect a sufficiently large enough shield spell to protect you and your bodyguards and your banner.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, davecake said:

I don't know where you go that at all - all three example wyters in the bestiary have an INT stat. And I think many provide moral or tactical guidance as part of their role. 

That's the difference between the generic stat block and the examples given... and that's in both the RGQ and the Bestiary.

So, either the stat block is wrong (incomplete), a specific line about INT is missing, or the examples are exceptions... RQ has lots of exceptions to rules.

 

11 hours ago, davecake said:

The phrasing used in the RQ Bestiary is 'direct', not command. They can tell the wyter what they would like it to do, but I don't think the wyter is compelled to do it. I don't think the priest could command the wyter to act against its own cult, for example. 

That would depend upon the above...

Also, what about one aspect wyter vs another? I can imagine the Samastina and Hendira in Notchet using different Wyters to power up and fight each other...(whether that's "acting against it own cult" would be up for debate )

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Shiningbrow
2nd quote

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, Kloster said:

What I understand is that Ancestor spirits are not divine, and are thus prevented to perform divine actions, such as Divine Intervention. I perfectly understand that it can be understood your way. OGWV.

I'm using a looser definition of 'divine', as I think most ancestor worshippers (both on Glorantha and Earth) would do.

And, this "Divine Intervention" is merely our meta-term for an in-game action. In their world, they would "call upon all the great ancestors to come and help us in this dire moment of need", and infuse their call with their POW.

[davecake]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:53 AM, Shiningbrow said:

That's the difference between the generic stat block and the examples given... and that's in both the RGQ and the Bestiary.

There is no generic stat block in either. In both cases, there is a clearly labelled Size chart. You are confusing a Size chart with a Stat block. The absence of INT doesn't mean they have no INT, it just means it doesn't vary with community Size. 

On 5/30/2019 at 11:53 AM, Shiningbrow said:

So, either the stat block is wrong (incomplete), a specific line about INT is missing, or the examples are exceptions... RQ has lots of exceptions to rules.

 

Or there is no stat block, and you've confused yourself. If you read the text, it is implied that even types of being that normally lack INT, such as elementals, generally have iNT as a wyter. 

It is certainly true that wyters vary widely, and an 'artificial psychic construct' is likely to have a very different kind of mind, but sapience certainly seems the standard, both from the description and the examples. 

On 5/30/2019 at 11:53 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Also, what about one aspect wyter vs another? I can imagine the Samastina and Hendira in Notchet using different Wyters to power up and fight each other...(whether that's "acting against it own cult" would be up for debate )

What wyters are they? Esrolian Houses are going to have wyters relative to the size of their houses, and queens of their houses are going to be able to command their wyters, and it is part of magical contests between houses - totally fine. Being able to command the backing of the wyter of your house is one of the privileges of being the leader of your house - and while using a lot of POW of your wyter in such a contest is probably a bad idea (reducing the integrity of your community in pursuit of a short term goal doesn't sound very sensible), the authority to make risky, possibly bad, decisions probably comes with being Queen (at least, until the Grandmothers decide to remove you). They probably don't fight each other violently (they are Ernaldans of course) but they have plenty of other options for magical contest. 

If either one is trying to use a bigger wyter (such as the wyter of Nochet itself) against the other, then you have to consider by what authority they are able to command it, and what consequences there are for potential misuse of that authority. 

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

If you read the text, it is implied that even types of being that normally lack INT, such as elementals, generally have iNT as a wyter

Please quote... 

I have read it numerous times (in both books), and don't see anything that merits such an obvious implication - especially since it's not actually mentioned anywhere else - and certainly nothing so useful as a quantifier. 

The "size table" is the closest thing to a stat block that's been given for the generic wyters. So, while it's not typical, I think it qualifies.

 

For the Ernaldan, I can see different sub-cult wyters being used. Of course, maybe they didn't. And, yeah, it would be really bad form... But, we don't know. And I can still see it might happen.

[davecake]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

11 hours ago, davecake said:

If you read the text, it is implied that even types of being that normally lack INT, such as elementals, generally have iNT as a wyter

Please quote... 

RQG pg 286 when it lists the types of spirit that may be wyters "The origins of an individual wyter varies, and wyters include the spirits of dead heroes, genius loci, children of gods, artificial psychic constructs, souls of extinct spirits, intelligent elementals, and many other possibilities." - why would it say that, if not because unintelligent elementals would be inappropriate as wyters?

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The "size table" is the closest thing to a stat block that's been given for the generic wyters.

I guess, but that doesn't mean it is one

 

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, while it's not typical, I think it qualifies.

.No, still just isn't. Do not use a thing clearly labelled as something else and then expect it implications to make sense. 

I think the implication of the lack of a stat block is that there is no such thing as a 'generic' wyter - they can be from many many different origins, and have many different properties as a result. A wyter is not a species, it is an entity transformed through a magical relationship to a community (much like, eg, a rune lord isn't a species, but a mortal transformed by a magical relationship to a deity). 

We can certainly agree that this section is badly edited, and confusing - my question and the answer from Jason clearly indicated that, and I think clearly also showed that the implications from the examples may make more sense than the text. Sure we can continue to have a few difficult questions until these things get properly clarified, probably in a future book. 

 

[davecake]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

For the Ernaldan, I can see different sub-cult wyters being used. Of course, maybe they didn't. And, yeah, it would be really bad form... But, we don't know. And I can still see it might happen.

I'm not sure that there are usually sub-cult wyters - I think most sub-cults are somewhat dispersed through the cult and don't form a specific community - sub-cult heroes or minor deities etc might certainly exist, just may not be wyters. And even if one did, would face the problem of the sub-cult being dispersed between factions. And we don't generally see sub-cults with individual Passions. Clan and family wyters are much more a classic wyter situation. 

And, yes, something that is really bad form can still happen. Leaders damaging their own clan by over committing to defeat of a rival, through ego or vengeance etc, is a classic literary trope. Leaders doing foolish things for bad reasons drives story. 

But even then, significantly weakening your wyter for temporary political advantage seems like such obvious poor judgement as to likely lead to the downfall of the leader in question. You would only reduce a wyter to a tiny faction of its previous power if you were saving the clan from literal destruction. 

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

We can certainly agree that this section is badly edited, and confusing - my question and the answer from Jason clearly indicated that, and I think clearly also showed that the implications from the examples may make more sense than the text. Sure we can continue to have a few difficult questions until these things get properly clarified, probably in a future book. 

 

Alas, we might be hosed until RQ8 for it all to come together.

A lot of new rules being put together by a lot of new people, doing it under the scrutiny of many many many grognards all making demands. It is a complicated beast and it won't be the first time that hobbyist have had to get together, form ranks hold hands help each other and even help the hobby's designers as well (what, help those billionaire bastiches (as the main man always says) what have they ever done for us, huh?). In the end it (RQ G) holds together pretty well for an old girl with a fresh coat of paint. and where it doesn't we can make it work.

No problems, been there done that and ruined a few t-shirts with spilled cokes and doritos.

Cheers

Edited June 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Alas, we might be hosed until RQ8 for it all to come together.

I actually have real hope that a lot of these questions will be more clearly answered in books in actual production now. 

 

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

In the end it (RQ G) holds together pretty well for an old girl with a fresh coat of paint. and were it doesn't we can make it work.

It does. Questions like exactly how wyters work in magical warfare are things most games won't need much. We've already got a LOT more detail than we ever had. We are in the very early stage of RQGs production cycle, there are much more important things (like those juicy full length Cults books, and some heroquesting rules), in a couple of years we will probably have a lovely rich collection of resources that answer a lot of these questions. We just aren't there yet. 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, davecake said:

It does. Questions like exactly how wyters work in magical warfare are things most games won't need much. We've already got a LOT more detail than we ever had. We are in the very early stage of RQGs production cycle, there are much more important things (like those juicy full length Cults books, and some heroquesting rules), in a couple of years we will probably have a lovely rich collection of resources that answer a lot of these questions. We just aren't there yet. 

 

Thank you, a cup half full type...

And it does seem to take long. Still telling the Chasoium boys and girls day after day that we hate their products and why we do and and and... really?

I would much rather say, hey, here is a problem found it, now do I get a no-prize? ...and why we think it is a problem, and how we would fix it and could you look at it, peers or management either will do, and tell me how to fix it for this weekend's game and I will help you next time. You know, good old community like we have here, just don't forget to let the designers join us, They're gamers too.

Cheers

Edited June 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I'm not sure that there are usually sub-cult wyters - I think most sub-cults are somewhat dispersed through the cult and don't form a specific community - sub-cult heroes or minor deities etc might certainly exist, just may not be wyters. And even if one did, would face the problem of the sub-cult being dispersed between factions. And we don't generally see sub-cults with individual Passions. Clan and family wyters are much more a classic wyter situation. 

And, yes, something that is really bad form can still happen. Leaders damaging their own clan by over committing to defeat of a rival, through ego or vengeance etc, is a classic literary trope. Leaders doing foolish things for bad reasons drives story. 

But even then, significantly weakening your wyter for temporary political advantage seems like such obvious poor judgement as to likely lead to the downfall of the leader in question. You would only reduce a wyter to a tiny faction of its previous power if you were saving the clan from literal destruction. 

This sub-cult idea was suggested previously, and so we're currently running with it (until further evidence suggests otherwise).

Re: Notchet... I think the whole events that occurred is really good evidence of a community starting to crumble, and disaster occur. Lots killed, buildings destroyed, etc. And mostly from within. Civil War... Yes they'll be used!

The only really good reason to maybe suggest wyters weren't involved is being Ernaldan, there's not a lot of offensive capability.

[davecake]

14 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

This sub-cult idea was suggested previously, and so we're currently running with it (until further evidence suggests otherwise).

Sure, but that implies to me it is as much a religious schism destroying the Ernalda cult rather than a civil war over leadership. That may totally be what you want. 

And there certainly is that element - though it isn't clear to me which sub-cults are on which side. 

14 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Re: Notchet... I think the whole events that occurred is really good evidence of a community starting to crumble, and disaster occur. Lots killed, buildings destroyed, etc. And mostly from within. Civil War... Yes they'll be used!

Sure, the question is how? My point is that IF you think the wyter is being used in such a way as to greatly reduce its POW for magical attacks etc, then the corollary is that the related communities are falling apart and maybe being destroyed in the process. Using a wyter as a magical weapon in a way that risks its existence or reduces its POW hugely is to risk the communities existence - quite consciously understood I would think. If you think the Esrolian civil war gets to that level, that eg Queens are willing to risk the destruction of their clan, on a gambit - then that is your story. 

I'm just arguing against the idea that using a wyters POW, especially on a big scale, using a significant %age of it, is a routine tactical strategy. It is always damaging and costly, and usually reserved for fairly dire straits by most rulers. Other ways of using a wyter (using it to scout, protect from spirit attacks, whatever native abilities it may have, its rune points, etc) are much more routine. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by davecake

[Bill the barbarian]

8 minutes ago, davecake said:

I'm just arguing against the idea that using a wyters POW, especially on a big scale, using a significant %age of it, is a routine tactical strategy. It is always damaging and costly, and usually reserved for fairly dire straits by most rulers. Other ways of using a wyter (using it to scout, protect from spirit attacks, whatever native abilities it may have, its rune points, etc) are much more routine. 

When playing King of Dragon Pass, it seems that a majority of wyters my clans had helped in real ways. A cauldron that amongst its many powers would always have a bowl of porridge for the hungry no matter how bad the famine. A sewing wheel that... well,  Or the red bulls that sired especially good calves,  of Red Cow fame. . Would one imagine a majority of Wyters are warlike or more peaceable.

Cheers

[Shiningbrow]

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

I'm just arguing against the idea that using a wyters POW, especially on a big scale, using a significant %age of it, is a routine tactical strategy. It is always damaging and costly, and usually reserved for fairly dire straits by most rulers. Other ways of using a wyter (using it to scout, protect from spirit attacks, whatever native abilities it may have, its rune points, etc) are much more routine. 

I didn't think I had suggested or implied otherwise.... Nor indicated the amount of POW used up (for a Wyter to be useful, its POW must be used, and refilled. Having it remain stagnant and untouched would be rather pointless most of the time). Going from 50POW to (say) 10 would be (sort of) acceptable.

 

12 minutes ago, davecake said:

then the corollary is that the related communities are falling apart and maybe being destroyed in the process.

That would be part of my definition of a Civil War - yes.

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

If you think the Esrolian civil war gets to that level, that eg Queens are willing to risk the destruction of their clan, on a gambit - then that is your story. 

And, perhaps the use of the wyter to hold onto one's power fits with the ideas above - and good reason for why Samastina needed to be replaced... We really don't have a good reason to think that the community leaders are always going to be the most stable, wisest, honourable people in the community.

[Shiningbrow]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Or the red bulls that sired especially good calves

Why not Red Bulls that kept people awake for long periods of time?

[Bill the barbarian]

33 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why not Red Bulls that kept people awake for long periods of time?

SECURITY over here please, thank you.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[davecake]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

When playing King of Dragon Pass, it seems that a majority of wyters my clans had helped in real ways. A cauldron that amongst its many powers would always have a bowl of porridge for the hungry no matter how bad the famine. A sewing wheel that... well,  Or the red bulls that sired especially good calves,  of Red Cow fame. . Would one imagine a majority of Wyters are warlike or more peaceable.

 

Just the fact that there is more than one per clan shows that it isn't a wyter. Most of the things you are talking about are clan treasures usually have nothing to do with wyters. 

But yes, wyters help in multiple ways. Usually an individual wyter has a bunch of special abilities, that may manifest as wyter magic (such as being able to cast particular spells with magic points, or an innate ability, etc), spells it may teach as a sub-cult (like the snake guardian does), or even secret heroquest paths it knows or similar. Most of them do not involve the wyters POW sacrifice. 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

Most of the things you are talking about are clan treasures usually have nothing to do with wyters. 

Thanks, I forgot. I have not played in a very long time, It not being  available for OS X or linux (my os s of choice). Oops

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, davecake said:

But yes, wyters help in multiple ways. Usually an individual wyter has a bunch of special abilities, that may manifest as wyter magic (such as being able to cast particular spells with magic points, or an innate ability, etc), spells it may teach as a sub-cult (like the snake guardian does), or even secret heroquest paths it knows or similar. Most of them do not involve the wyters POW sacrifice. 

So I infer that there should be a story that defines what it is and how it interacts with the clan first (spidey's origin story for lack of a better analogy) followed by stats after... 

[davecake]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Nor indicated the amount of POW used up (for a Wyter to be useful, its POW must be used, and refilled. Having it remain stagnant and untouched would be rather pointless most of the time)

No, wyters have plenty of other useful properties, as I tried to make very clear earlier in the thread. Especially when you look at specific wyters, that usually have unique useful abilities. 

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Going from 50POW to (say) 10 would be (sort of) acceptable.

First, looking at that Size chart you are so fond of, even the qyter of a Metropolis usually only has a POW around 40. And that is reducing it to less than that of a shrine or small village. A lot of magicians could pretty easily destroy such a spirit (causing the whole city to basically collapse, its citizens fleeing, its government dissolving) or capturing and magically enslaving the city. 

Second, its going to weaken that community drastically in the mean time. People begin ignoring the leaders, unity disappears, social institutions fail. Reducing the wyter that drastically has a massive cost, its not just POW. 

Doing so for short term advantage is criminally irresponsible. You would do so only when the entire city is threatened. 

So no, I think it is wildly unacceptable for a leader to do that in almost any circumstances. 

 

[Shiningbrow]

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

Second, its going to weaken that community drastically in the mean time. People begin ignoring the leaders, unity disappears, social institutions fail. Reducing the wyter that drastically has a massive cost, its not just POW. 

You mean... civil war?

16 minutes ago, davecake said:

Doing so for short term advantage is criminally irresponsible. You would do so only when the entire city is threatened.

You mean, like how one perceives what is happening to the city and people during civil war??

17 minutes ago, davecake said:

So no, I think it is wildly unacceptable for a leader to do that in almost any circumstances

"...almost any circumstances"... except, maybe... civil war?

[davecake]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

So I infer that there should be a story that defines what it is and how it interacts with the clan first (spidey's origin story for lack of a better analogy) followed by stats after... 

Yes. Its POW and CHA should generally just come from that Size chart for the community, that bit is easy. But the nature and origin will make a lot of difference to how it manifests and interacts. For an Orlanthi clan, it might be an ancient ancestor, or a spirit of the place where the clan settled in, or a heroic clan founder. For a temple it is usually a minor godling (and its lineage will matter) , but could also be a ghost of a founder. Etc. The special abilities of the wyter are the ones you probably know the best, because they are the ones that are either used regularly and/or in well know myths. A wyter has its own runic associations, they make a big difference to its powers (and literally could be anything that a humans could be at least), and they make a real difference. 

 The example of Many-Breath from The Coming Storm is a good one. An ancient chieftain, when the clan re-entered Dragon Pass and settled they found his old Barrow Mound and convinced him to protect the clan. He was an Orlanthi Chief and has Air and Movement and abilities related to rain and has the abilities 

• Cause Rainstorm
• Drown Ogre
• Find A Way Out
• Get Help From The Stars 

• Open Asrelia’s Larder

• Rain that Burns Chaos

The Wyter of the Cinsina tribe, Blue Ghost, is an ancient Vingkotling warrior. The wyter of the Dolutha is too, with Air and Death runes - but his clan has turned away from Orlanth, so he is weak, and the clan lacks unity. The wyter of the Two-Pine Clan, Greatblade, has the Death and Mastery runes, and was a Humakti, so the clan always has good war magic, but limited fertility. 

Some of those abilities can be translated easily to Rune spells in RQG, some not so easily. 

There are also city wyters, these are known for most of the Sartarite cities - eg Hauberk Jon, the first mayor, for Jonstown. 

And there are smaller wyters, usually not much more powerful than an allied spirit at least at first, but possibly becoming a potent force, for warbands and bands of magicians - and this might be the sort of wyter that your players might command directly, having founded some sort of group through heroic action. There is an example of PCs creating on in the Coming Storm. In this case, you would want to have a very clear idea of its powers, perhaps have powers gradually added through heroquest etc. 

[davecake]

 

15 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

33 minutes ago, davecake said:

Second, its going to weaken that community drastically in the mean time. People begin ignoring the leaders, unity disappears, social institutions fail. Reducing the wyter that drastically has a massive cost, its not just POW. 

You mean... civil war?

I mean drastically lowering its POWer is a short cut to losing a civil war. Or creating one. 

If you drastically weaken the wyter of a community, that is a good way to create a civil war. It is also a good way to weaken the unity of your community to the point you are guaranteed to lose. Eg - you use 80% of your wyters POW to strengthen your warriors and win a strategic battle. And most of the commoners decide that the price of war is not worth it, flee the clan as refugees, your council turns against you and will no longer support your leadership, and your warriors morale is low and many of them no longer wish to fight for the clan and begin looking around for mercenary gigs.

Have you won? Is it worth it? 

Within a few weeks, your clan is smaller, without resources - and then your enemies attack with their powerful magic, and your wyter is too weak to defend you.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it will generally be understood as the mad hubris of leaders who want to win at all costs, rather than the wise tactics of a war leader. But leaders destroying their communities in order to win IS a core part of any civil war story. 

So yes, the tactics you describe will get used in civil wars - because civil war stories are about hubris, foolishness, and the destruction of communities by people who should know better.

Even then, they are the tactics that get used by the losers of civil wars. The people who win them are the ones who keep their communities together and strong. 

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

 

I mean drastically lowering its POWer is a short cut to losing a civil war. Or creating one. 

If you drastically weaken the wyter of a community, that is a good way to create a civil war. It is also a good way to weaken the unity of your community to the point you are guaranteed to lose. Eg - you use 80% of your wyters POW to strengthen your warriors and win a strategic battle. And most of the commoners decide that the price of war is not worth it, flee the clan as refugees, your council turns against you and will no longer support your leadership, and your warriors morale is low and many of them no longer wish to fight for the clan and begin looking around for mercenary gigs.

Have you won? Is it worth it? 

Within a few weeks, your clan is smaller, without resources - and then your enemies attack with their powerful magic, and your wyter is too weak to defend you.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it will generally be understood as the mad hubris of leaders who want to win at all costs, rather than the wise tactics of a war leader. But leaders destroying their communities in order to win IS a core part of any civil war story. 

So yes, the tactics you describe will get used in civil wars - because civil war stories are about hubris, foolishness, and the destruction of communities by people who should know better.

Even then, they are the tactics that get used by the losers of civil wars. The people who win them are the ones who keep their communities together and strong. 

Yes, that's what I was getting at...

 

Is it worth it? Depends on how much power (POW?) you use... and how quickly you can get it back. There will certainly be situations where a wyter's POW is drastically reduced in emergencies, but the community would come together and re-power (POW) it.

So, at the end of the civil war, I imagine that the new queen (damn - I mixed up my queens before!) would gather everyone back for a big worship ceremony to restore the peace (and wyter).

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is it worth it? Depends on how much power (POW?) you use... and how quickly you can get it back. There will certainly be situations where a wyter's POW is drastically reduced in emergencies, but the community would come together and re-power (POW) it.

Yes, that is the basic tradeoff - but I think we very much differ on where the trade off points lie. You are talking about using 80% of a wyters power - at that level, I think you are essentially accepting that you have probably destroyed your community in its functional form, or at least medium term reduced it to that level, so you would never do it to 'win'. You do it to avoid annihilation when you have already lost. You might try to get together and re-POWer it - but you would be accepting that that outcome might likely never recur. 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, at the end of the civil war, I imagine that the new queen (damn - I mixed up my queens before!) would gather everyone back for a big worship ceremony to restore the peace (and wyter).

Or the city is destroyed in its current form, and later survivors form a new social structure, with a new wyter, from the ruins, probably one that no longer has a Queen at all. If you reduce the wyter of a metropolis to one less powerful than an average ghost, you risk that alternative outcome. And those that the Queen depends on for power and support know that, and may judge her accordingly. 

Eg if you have reduced the wyter to one that weak, a wicked magician could easily destroy or capture it. A hostile foreign forced could take the city, and without the power of the wyter, the inhabitants might just let them. 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by davecake