Road to Rune Lord (House Rule)

[Tywyll]

21 hours ago, Crel said:

1) Poo on you, I like RQ3's familiars.  Of course we did some really weird stuff with them, which definitely wasn't in RQ3-base. I may have turned an AD&D miniaturized iron golem into my familiar and dumped way to much POW into it...

2) More seriously, I like the quoted idea. It makes a lot of sense to me to tie fancy new abilities to character advancement. Honestly, maybe you should think about foregoing the sacrifice, and it's just an opportunity to get X ability for Y geas? (It's not a taboo, only dirty primitive shamans have taboos!) Set it up so there's five or six abilities to pick for each deity to start from, something like that. You could even phrase the basic Rune Lord benefits (D10 DI, POW21 resist) in that way--when you've assembled all five powers, you're now that deity's RL. (IDK if that's a good idea--I'm musing.)

Based on @Crel's comment above, I got to thinking. I don't use shaman in my game for various reasons, but I like their abilities and want to use them in game. So I thought they should be folded into Rune Level Characters. Here's my first stab at Rune Lords getting the abilities. Haven't sorted it out for Priests or God-Talkers yet.

This is a dramatic change from the default and provides characters with access to those abilities but in a 'tiered' method. The nice thing is that even thought it can provide a wide variation in what RLs look like, they can simply take the default powers and leave it at that (i.e. no changes are necessary when using pre-stated NPCs...just assume they went for the standard abilities and no additional sacrifice). 

So, rought draft here, be gentle (literally I just wrote this over my lunch break)-

Road to Rune Lord

Initiates who are not Rune Lords or Rune Priests of other faiths gain new abilities as they advance towards Rune Lord status within their chosen cult.

Upon Mastering (90%+) their first Cult skill, they gain one of the following abilities:

They can teach any other member of their Cult spells (as per 281-this is a one point ability without additional levels), gain Second Sight (as Shaman), gain Hide Soul, Magic Attack, Magic Defence, Spirit Affinity, or Spirit Defense. To gain the ability, the character must attend a week long ceremony starting or ending on a holy day of their god. A character gains these abilities without geas or other cost, however they may choose to sacrifice attributes once for additional levels in any of the above abilities. So, for example, RL masters a skill, worships, gains a free ability, sacrifices 3 POW for 2 extra abilities, takes a geese and then sacrifices 1 Dex for a third. Next time they Master a skill, they will need to sacrifice 2 attribute points for additional abilities (unless they immediately take a geese).

Upon Mastering their second and third skill, they can choose to either increase the previous abilities they gained, of pick from the following:

Access to Enchantment Spells (one point ability), Allied Spirit (first level grants standard allied spirit, each additional level grants the spirit +1d6 CHA or +1d3 POW), Cure Disease, Expanded Presence, Power Within, Second Sight (Enhanced)-you must have Second Sight to take this power, Show Spirit, or Spirit Mastery. As above, a character gains these abilities when they master the skill and attend the religious ceremony. Each mastered skill requires a different ceremony for its ability, and each ceremony allows the prospective candidate to sacrifice for additional levels as before.

Upon mastering their 4th skill they may either increase previous abilities or gain the standard Rune Lord’s Improved Resistance to Magic. Alternatively they may gain Spell Barrage, Spell Extension, or Statistic Expansion (each level increases one stat by +1, does not increase racial max but can boost a stat beyond max).

Upon Mastering their 5th skill they gain a Rune Lord’s Divine Intervention ability. They may also choose to sacrifice for additional abilities, including Self-Resurrection (rune Points may be sacrificed permanently in place of and in addition to POW) and Soul Expansion.

After mastering their 5 skill, they are true Rune Lords and gain all the social benefits of being a rune lore (Easier Rune Point replenishment, Support of the Cult, Use of Rune Metals, and Further Training and Experience).

At this point, the character can improve or gain new abilities in the same manner whenever they attain mastery of a new Cult skill or on the Cult’s high holy day. Once they have mastered all the cult skills, they may sacrifice on every seasonal holy day. As with Shaman, Rune Lords can ‘reset’ the cost of their sacrifices by taking a geas (aka Taboo). These should suit the cult so a GM should feel free to substitute new ones in place of the default ones presented in the rules.

I modified the Taboo chart to be a bit more generic and a bit more theistic-

Taboos/Geas

D100 Taboo/Geas

1-4    Blessed (no Taboo)

5     Never eat meat you or a RL of your Cult hasn’t personally killed

6–9     Never eat herd animal meat.

10–12 Never eat avian meat.

13     Never eat any meat of any animal sacred to your cult.

14–18 Remain celibate during Sacred Time.

19–23 Remain celibate during a given season (usually corresponding to the rune level’s strongest Rune).

24–26 All celibacy requirements above.

27     Total celibacy always.

28–29 Speak only Truth to everyone.

30     Attack <enemy race> on sight.

31–32 Always/Never show mercy to a surrendering or helpless foe

33–34 Always play <instrument> while spellcasting.

35–36 Always dance while spellcasting.

37–38 Always sing while spellcasting.

39     Only use <Elemental> speech while casting spells.

40–41 Sleep outdoors one day every week.

42–43 Never let an animal sacred to the faith suffer needlessly.

44–45 Never wear leather armor.

46–47 Never wear metal armor.

48     Never wear any armor.

49–50 Never wear anything on the head.

51     Never wear any clothes but religious vestments.

52     Never use any shield.

53–54     Never use any axe.

55–56     Never use any bow.

57–58     Never use a flail or whip of any kind.

59–61     Never use any spear.

62–63     Never use a sword of any kind.

64–66     Never use any weapon but Cultural and Cult Weapons

67–69     Make pilgrimage to a Holy Place each Sacred Time.

70–72     Make pilgrimage to a Holy Place once each season.

73–76 Drink no alcoholic beverages

77–79 Double magic point sacrifice each holy day

80–82 Challenge all <pick enemy god> cultists on sight.

83–85 Never speak to or help followers of <pick unaligned God>

86–88 Never speak to or aid <pick race> in anyway

89–91 Never love any but <aligned cults>

92–93 Never take a slave

94     Make a blood sacrifice to god every holy day (animals will suffice)

95     Never eat the meat of horses.

96     Surrender any children you bare/sire to the Cult.

97–99 Roll twice more.

00     Roll thrice more.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Tywyll

[PhilHibbs]

42 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

I modified the Taboo chart to be a bit more generic and a bit more theistic-

Taboos/Geas

D100 Taboo/Geas

 

53–54     Never use any axe.

55–56     Never use any bow.

57–58     Never use a flail or whip of any kind.

59–61     Never use any spear.

62–63     Never use a sword of any kind.

How about merging these into one "Never use any <non-cult weapon type>"?

 

[Tywyll]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

How about merging these into one "Never use any <non-cult weapon type>"?

 

Ah...good idea.

I changed it to:

53–63     Never use any <Pick one non-Cult Weapon Type>

Thanks!
 

 

[gochie]

I like it, but in RQG most players (warrior cults at least) will likely have a 1st level gift at the very start (not necessarily a bad thing, but something to consider). 

[Austin]

Some general thoughts, not necessarily in a particular order...

How does Magic Defense stack with the Rune Lord spell resistance?

What about some of the "natural" shaman abilities being on the sac-list? Ex. shaman Discorporation.

Allied Spirit at second cult skill mastered seems really strong. The notion of getting to "power up" your allied spirit is interesting. I think I'm into it.

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

A character gains these abilities without geas or other cost, however they may choose to sacrifice attributes once for additional levels in any of the above abilities.

Emphasis added; portion reads to me like they can only do so one time, presumably when they gain the ability.

I feel like the text reads as though you master the skill, worship, gain an ability (or the next level of a prior ability) at no cost, and then may sacrifice attributes to increase the newly-bought ability. It seems gaining geese doesn't occur until full RL?

Statistic expansion feels weird due to the "sacrifice attributes" part of these abilities still in play. I suggest instead increasing the adventurer's species max for the characteristic (like Soul Expansion). In particular, it feels underwhelming to gain +1 to a characteristic in comparison to the other abilities on offer at that tier, like RL Resistance and freaking Spell Extension.

Could you use Rune points for a theistic self-resurrection? Probably permanent loss, to compare to permanent loss of POW. Generally, without the fetch as a POW bank I think self-resurrection isn't as good as you think it is (though I certainly may be wrong).

I don't think easier RP replenishment is a social function of being a RL--I think it's a magical function. That being said, I agree that it belongs as part of a "full" RL's kit. Maybe an option at tier 4?

One of the challenges with this set of houserules is that, frankly, it's hard to believe that someone would pick the shaman abilities over the pre-slotted RL ones--like Allied Spirit, RL resistance, and DI. So although you're trying to let each RL be more varied, ultimately they'll end up with similar major features, and a few alternate minor ones. This does change once the RL progresses beyond 5 masteries and begins saccing characteristics for more abilities.

I think each cult should probably have its own set of abilities to choose from. I like your tiers generally, but I think it would flavor each cult further if maybe the first ability is mandatory for some cults--like Chalana Arroy initiates must learn Cure Disease. Perhaps this should connect to the cult skill mastered (Ex., must learn Cure Disease after mastering Treat Disease, or may only learn it after doing so). This also gives more space to develop new abilities, by locking them to individual cults. Further, I think you could "Priest v. Lord" track this by assigning specific abilities to general trends. For example, Spell Extension to Rune Priests, to characterize them generally as "magic specialists" as opposed to "martial specialists." A correlation of this is that you could flavor RLs as more "magically oriented" by giving access to normal "priest" abilities. Ex, returning Sword Sages of Lhankor Mhy, or giving Seven Mothers Rune Lords priest-y powers.

I might decide to characterize the tiers by title, to handle God-Talkers. They'd be tier 3 or tier 4 access, and have the open position. Initiates are tier 1 and 2. This could further interconnect service done to the cult and social positioning with access to cult powers. For example, a highly skilled warrior newly initiated to Humakt might have the cult masteries to immediately reach tier 3, but wouldn't have the social standing--he's not ready to be a God-talker, he just joined us! etc. (Ignore that Humakt IIRC doesn't actually have G-Ts.)

I'd add the priest's unique abilities to this list too. The main one I recall is +20% to POW Gain rolls, but I think there's one or two more IIRC which RLs don't get.

I feel like Second Sight or an appropriate Spirit Affinity would make a lot of sense as a mandatory first ability. Ex., members of Orlanth Thunderous must learn Spirit Affinity (Air Spirits) upon beginning their trek on the "higher mysteries" once they've mastered their first cult skill. While Spirit Affinity is generally a weaker shaman power, it's particularly relevant for Orlanth Thunderous because I feel like their major "calling card" is use of Air elementals.

I could see buying points of Spiritual Armor with this making sense as an ability. Reviewing the shaman abilities, it'd be way better than Spirit Defense (which I think is just a bland skill increase?). 

[Tywyll]

14 hours ago, gochie said:

I like it, but in RQG most players (warrior cults at least) will likely have a 1st level gift at the very start (not necessarily a bad thing, but something to consider). 

Not clear what you mean. Are you talking about Humakt and Yelmalio Gifts? 

[Tywyll]

12 hours ago, Crel said:

Some general thoughts, not necessarily in a particular order...

No problem. Thanks for the extensive feed back!

12 hours ago, Crel said:

How does Magic Defense stack with the Rune Lord spell resistance?

Just adds to it I would imagine. There are lots of threats out there with POWs higher than 21. It would mean that eventually Rune Levels are realistically the only threat to each other when it comes to magical attacks, but that is kind of the case now.

Do you think that is too strong? Of all the abilities, I think Magic Attack and Defense are some of the weakest. I hardly see many players sacrificing for more than a level or two of the power. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

What about some of the "natural" shaman abilities being on the sac-list? Ex. shaman Discorporation.

That's a good idea. Where would you put Discorporation? 2-3 or 4?

12 hours ago, Crel said:

Allied Spirit at second cult skill mastered seems really strong. The notion of getting to "power up" your allied spirit is interesting. I think I'm into it.

Yeah, I hemmed and hawwed about Allied Spirit but ultimately valued it as less than some of the other powers. Why?

Allied Spirit is a powerful spirit, but in general it is not that much more powerful than any bound spirit. Any character could, long before mastering even a single skill, pick up the Spirit Spells create a spirit trap and bind a spirit and then start binding away (yes, they have to sacrifice POW and all that, but still). It's the old way of getting bound spirits ala RQ2 and its available pretty much at character gen or shortly after if you are willing to pay the price. 

So baring that in mind, Allied Spirit felt less powerful than other potential abilities, certainly less so than Magic Resistance or DI. I suppose I could break down steps 2 and 3 but...I'm lazy.

12 hours ago, Crel said:

Emphasis added; portion reads to me like they can only do so one time, presumably when they gain the ability.

I feel like the text reads as though you master the skill, worship, gain an ability (or the next level of a prior ability) at no cost, and then may sacrifice attributes to increase the newly-bought ability. It seems gaining geese doesn't occur until full RL?

That's mostly correct. I intended geese to be selectable whereever fine sacrifices are sold...er, I mean, whenever you sacrifice points.

So perspective RL masters a skill, worships, gains a free ability, sacrifices 3 POW for 2 extra abilities, takes a geese and then sacrifices 1 Dex for a third. Next time they Master a skill, they will need to sacrifice 2 attribute points for additional abilities (unless they immediately take a geese). 

That was my intention. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

Statistic expansion feels weird due to the "sacrifice attributes" part of these abilities still in play. I suggest instead increasing the adventurer's species max for the characteristic (like Soul Expansion). In particular, it feels underwhelming to gain +1 to a characteristic in comparison to the other abilities on offer at that tier, like RL Resistance and freaking Spell Extension.

Yeah, that's fair. Though sacrificing POW to raise a different characteristic felt like a fairish trade (like sac 4 POW and take a geese to increase another stat by +3...depending on what you are raising that seems pretty potent). The problem with having it increase species max is that species max doesn't really impact other stats the way it does POW. You never roll to improve a stat by comparing it to your max ala soul expansion. I mean it would allow you to train higher but that feels like ultra weak sauce.

I suppose I could shunt it down to the 2-3 level to make it more appetising. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

Could you use Rune points for a theistic self-resurrection? Probably permanent loss, to compare to permanent loss of POW. Generally, without the fetch as a POW bank I think self-resurrection isn't as good as you think it is (though I certainly may be wrong).

That's a VERY good catch. I hadn't thought of that. Yes, I would allow Permanent rune point loss in place of POW loss. 

I also like the 13th Age Glorantha idea of gaining bonuses from your allies giving you a proper funeral and all that as you fight/slip out of hell. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

I don't think easier RP replenishment is a social function of being a RL--I think it's a magical function. That being said, I agree that it belongs as part of a "full" RL's kit. Maybe an option at tier 4?

To me it is social because it involves you being able to lead services rather than passively attend them. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

One of the challenges with this set of houserules is that, frankly, it's hard to believe that someone would pick the shaman abilities over the pre-slotted RL ones--like Allied Spirit, RL resistance, and DI. So although you're trying to let each RL be more varied, ultimately they'll end up with similar major features, and a few alternate minor ones. This does change once the RL progresses beyond 5 masteries and begins saccing characteristics for more abilities.

Well, I can see someone skipping 'teaching spells' for something else at step 1. The other powers are great, but things like soul expansion, spell extension, and spell barrage are darn powerful (in my mind).

However, if players don't choose those options, it's fine. It's just there for people who want them/are willing to sacrifice abilities. As I said above, an advantage of this house rule is that you can use published material and this rule without any problem because you just assume published RL took the easy 'trad' route instead of bothering to sacrifice for anything additional. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

I think each cult should probably have its own set of abilities to choose from. I like your tiers generally, but I think it would flavor each cult further if maybe the first ability is mandatory for some cults--like Chalana Arroy initiates must learn Cure Disease. Perhaps this should connect to the cult skill mastered (Ex., must learn Cure Disease after mastering Treat Disease, or may only learn it after doing so). This also gives more space to develop new abilities, by locking them to individual cults. Further, I think you could "Priest v. Lord" track this by assigning specific abilities to general trends. For example, Spell Extension to Rune Priests, to characterize them generally as "magic specialists" as opposed to "martial specialists." A correlation of this is that you could flavor RLs as more "magically oriented" by giving access to normal "priest" abilities. Ex, returning Sword Sages of Lhankor Mhy, or giving Seven Mothers Rune Lords priest-y powers.

That's an interesting idea. Would require a tremendous amount of work though. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

I might decide to characterize the tiers by title, to handle God-Talkers. They'd be tier 3 or tier 4 access, and have the open position. Initiates are tier 1 and 2. This could further interconnect service done to the cult and social positioning with access to cult powers. For example, a highly skilled warrior newly initiated to Humakt might have the cult masteries to immediately reach tier 3, but wouldn't have the social standing--he's not ready to be a God-talker, he just joined us! etc. (Ignore that Humakt IIRC doesn't actually have G-Ts.)

Also very good idea. 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

I'd add the priest's unique abilities to this list too. The main one I recall is +20% to POW Gain rolls, but I think there's one or two more IIRC which RLs don't get.

Yeah I intended to do a separate Road to Priest post to handle them. Maybe fold some of these ideas into that (like allowing Priests to gain certain more magical powers more easily). 

12 hours ago, Crel said:

I feel like Second Sight or an appropriate Spirit Affinity would make a lot of sense as a mandatory first ability. Ex., members of Orlanth Thunderous must learn Spirit Affinity (Air Spirits) upon beginning their trek on the "higher mysteries" once they've mastered their first cult skill. While Spirit Affinity is generally a weaker shaman power, it's particularly relevant for Orlanth Thunderous because I feel like their major "calling card" is use of Air elementals.

I could see buying points of Spiritual Armor with this making sense as an ability. Reviewing the shaman abilities, it'd be way better than Spirit Defense (which I think is just a bland skill increase?). 

Yeah, I was surprised at how lame Spirit Defense was. No where near as useful as Spirit Armor. 

Thanks for all your feed back! I will edit the post accordingly when I get a chance.

[PhilHibbs]

Self-resurrection is already a thing, Asborn Thriceborn has it in the Gamemaster Adventure Book, it's a Heroquest power. I would be reluctant to make it something that any Rune master can easily get. Unless the basic version is less useful than the Heroquest version, I think shamanic self-resurrection is quite slow isn't it? Whole seasons or something like that?

Edited May 21, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Tywyll]

41 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Self-resurrection is already a thing, Asborn Thriceborn has it in the Gamemaster Adventure Book, it's a Heroquest power. I would be reluctant to make it something that any Rune master can easily get. Unless the basic version is less useful than the Heroquest version, I think shamanic self-resurrection is quite slow isn't it? Whole seasons or something like that?

Yeah, but until we get rules for those power I'm stuck using shaman powers. I imagine that a lot of the shaman abilities will be things you can gain via heroquesting, so there will be overlap (spirit affinity, spirit sight, soul expansion, self-resurrection, etc definitely seem like they are probably going to double up).

But yes, Shamanic self res starts out taking a season and the more you invest in it the quicker it goes. It also might cost you a ton of POW to use, depending on how you die...like destroying a shaman's body would probably make it impossible to return (unless you only have to heal the fatal wound, not your entire body). 

[gochie]

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Not clear what you mean. Are you talking about Humakt and Yelmalio Gifts? 

I just meant that most initiates will have a 90+ skill (weapon) in RQG, thus new adventurers will start with an ability under your system. 

[Tywyll]

5 minutes ago, gochie said:

I just meant that most initiates will have a 90+ skill (weapon) in RQG, thus new adventurers will start with an ability under your system. 

Ah, got it. Yeah, that's true but I don't really have an issue with that. The first tier powers aren't ground breaking and all games don't have to be zero-to-hero.

[styopa]

I don't think having to take care of geese is much of a cost for rune lord powers?

[Joerg]

21 minutes ago, styopa said:

I don't think having to take care of geese is much of a cost for rune lord powers?

Those geese tend to bite you, or at least natter loudly at you at the slightest movement. Vicious things, plucky as hell, better bring pliers.

But then, those cultists you are supposed to lead by example can exhibit the same nasty traits, and they would be less tasty when roasted.

 

Seriously, I don't see spirit mastery or spirit plane travel as normal rune lord powers.

The backdoor from Hell quest and jts stakes and cost should be written up for both RQG and HQG, and it might well include some permanent loss of rune points when necessary. It is far more convenient than normal resurrection, as you don't need your old body to return (as proven by Belintar, who returned a couple of times after his body had been destroyed or eaten). You might have to hunt for your old body up and immolate it properly, or something like that, similar to the quest of that unlucky dragonewt (in Griffin Mountain, IIRC) hunting down the skin of its previous incarnation which had been made into dragonewt armor.

A copy of the Book of Belintar should be helpful to learn this quest. It might have been a standard reward for surviving participation in the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death as anything but the winner, at least after a certain point in that questing tournament. That means you will have lost at least one Heroquest challenge... might still be worth the price.

[g33k]

Honestly, I'd be reluctant to tread too readily on the Shamanic toes; I'd avoid Discorporation, and similarly Shaman-centric things.  If you want to be a Rune-Lord-Shaman, do it the hard way! 

 

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Seriously, I don't see spirit mastery or spirit plane travel as normal rune lord powers.

21 minutes ago, g33k said:

Honestly, I'd be reluctant to tread too readily on the Shamanic toes; I'd avoid Discorporation, and similarly Shaman-centric things.

Since the OP specifically said he doesn't want to use shamanism at all in his game, these comments are kind of off topic for this thread.

 

[g33k]

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

Since the OP specifically said he doesn't want to use shamanism at all in his game, these comments are kind of off topic for this thread.

You are right!  I totally missed that!  

Apologies to the OP.

[Tywyll]

 

11 hours ago, g33k said:

You are right!  I totally missed that!  

Apologies to the OP.

No problem!

[Tywyll]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those geese tend to bite you, or at least natter loudly at you at the slightest movement. Vicious things, plucky as hell, better bring pliers.

But then, those cultists you are supposed to lead by example can exhibit the same nasty traits, and they would be less tasty when roasted.

Nasty, nasty creatures!

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

Seriously, I don't see spirit mastery or spirit plane travel as normal rune lord powers.

The backdoor from Hell quest and jts stakes and cost should be written up for both RQG and HQG, and it might well include some permanent loss of rune points when necessary. It is far more convenient than normal resurrection, as you don't need your old body to return (as proven by Belintar, who returned a couple of times after his body had been destroyed or eaten). You might have to hunt for your old body up and immolate it properly, or something like that, similar to the quest of that unlucky dragonewt (in Griffin Mountain, IIRC) hunting down the skin of its previous incarnation which had been made into dragonewt armor.

Sure...I HOPE it gets written up. But who knows when the GM guide will be available or if that particular HQ will be covered? I don't have any interest in waiting...it's been what...almost 40 years now for proper rules? I'll make do with Self-Res unless something better comes along. 

You know I find it sad that 13th Age Glorantha has proper HQ rules before RQ does. D&D does it first. But that's neither here nor there. 

 

[Shiningbrow]

TBH, I'm be against such an idea. Purely because it makes HQs a lot less worthwhile (unless you're intending to simultaneously increase the rewards from HQs).

It's been said above that most starting characters will have at least 1 abiility, and I'd even go so far as to suggest that a few would have 3 or 4 - certainly if you're a Humakti (weapon skills are relatively high from Cultural Background, plus the Warrior occupations, plus the Cult skills... ). A large portion of people in the world are going to be getting these abilities just by dint of being alive and doing their job every day... certainly by age 30, your typical farmer, fisher or herder ought to have a couple.

[Austin]

On 5/21/2019 at 3:46 AM, Tywyll said:

Just adds to it I would imagine. There are lots of threats out there with POWs higher than 21. It would mean that eventually Rune Levels are realistically the only threat to each other when it comes to magical attacks, but that is kind of the case now.

Do you think that is too strong? Of all the abilities, I think Magic Attack and Defense are some of the weakest. I hardly see many players sacrificing for more than a level or two of the power. 

Game-wise, I think this is reasonable. World-wise, I'm a little hesitant because RL Resistance is a god-given gift. I'm not sure it would stack with something internal to the RL. That being said, you could hand-wave it as "Lesser Resistance" and "Greater," or maybe once the RL gets Resistance they can take an extra geas or sac an extra attribute to bundle their previous Magic Defense in with the rest.

It's important to remember that RLs only resist with POW 21. And I feel like they probably aren't running around often with full POW 18+ on tap due to enchanting, DI, maxing out RP, etc. Even if they are, a few points of Magic Attack could give the vital advantage in a magical contest between RLs.

On 5/21/2019 at 3:46 AM, Tywyll said:

Where would you put Discorporation? 2-3 or 4?

Hrm. Probably 3 or 4, depending on how it's colored. I feel like the ability isn't inherently crazy--especially since theist characters aren't likely to have good skills in Spirit Travel, Spiritspeech, Spirit Lore, or Spirit Dance when they gain access to the Spirit World. If you phrase the fluff as "we can go visit the gods and pay homage in their world!" or "sort-of their world!", then this is definitely a tier 4 ability, and one which would be really important for a priest to have. Likely part of their magical role during worship services, like a defining feature in shaman-less Glorantha. In terms of raw power, I feel like it's probably around 2, maybe 3, until the adventurer's skills get good enough to use it properly.

On 5/21/2019 at 3:46 AM, Tywyll said:

Allied Spirit is a powerful spirit, but in general it is not that much more powerful than any bound spirit.

You get to mindlink the allied spirit in a way which is more powerful. You get to perform multiple actions per round without needing a Control (entity) or Command Cult Spirit spell cast, and without needing to take a full round off acting to give a new command. Your allied spirit can initiate into your cult and give you a second pool of Rune points. It's pretty strong.

However, if you'd like allied spirits to be earlier, maybe you could downgrade them for tier 2, and upgrade into the full mindlink and shared RP pool at tier 3?

On 5/21/2019 at 3:46 AM, Tywyll said:

So perspective RL masters a skill, worships, gains a free ability, sacrifices 3 POW for 2 extra abilities, takes a geese and then sacrifices 1 Dex for a third. Next time they Master a skill, they will need to sacrifice 2 attribute points for additional abilities (unless they immediately take a geese). 

That was my intention.

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear on all of my confusions. Initially, I read your text as "Only Rune Lords can take geese" and that each time they master a skill, they get a free ability. Then in the same ceremony, they may sacrifice characteristics for abilities. They can't sacrifice any more characteristics (or gain more abilities) until they've mastered another skill (they aren't allowed to do the special ceremony until then). Once an adventurer is a Rune Lord with five skills mastered and T5 unlocked, they can undergo the ceremony whenever they choose. How accurate is this?

 

On 5/21/2019 at 3:46 AM, Tywyll said:

Quote

I think each cult should probably have its own set of abilities to choose from. ...

That's an interesting idea. Would require a tremendous amount of work though.

Yes. Yes it would...

[Tywyll]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

TBH, I'm be against such an idea. Purely because it makes HQs a lot less worthwhile (unless you're intending to simultaneously increase the rewards from HQs).

It's been said above that most starting characters will have at least 1 abiility, and I'd even go so far as to suggest that a few would have 3 or 4 - certainly if you're a Humakti (weapon skills are relatively high from Cultural Background, plus the Warrior occupations, plus the Cult skills... ). A large portion of people in the world are going to be getting these abilities just by dint of being alive and doing their job every day... certainly by age 30, your typical farmer, fisher or herder ought to have a couple.

Except that the majority of people aren't initiaties, so no, they wouldn't gain these abilities. Certainly not your average famer, fisher, or herder. Also, only gaining a roll to advance once a season, I wouldn't expect that to pan out at all (granted, I could be wrong about the math). Even if they did, they would gain one, two at most, and unless they are willing to sacrifice part of themselves, they are going to be able to have very minor benefits...not much stronger than they have from ubiquitous magic and unlimited access to common rune spells.

So it just makes the process a bit stair stepped rather than an elevator, and it doesn't change the setting or anything. Everyone has magic woo hoo. 

[Tywyll]

11 minutes ago, Crel said:

Game-wise, I think this is reasonable. World-wise, I'm a little hesitant because RL Resistance is a god-given gift. I'm not sure it would stack with something internal to the RL. That being said, you could hand-wave it as "Lesser Resistance" and "Greater," or maybe once the RL gets Resistance they can take an extra geas or sac an extra attribute to bundle their previous Magic Defense in with the rest.

I see all of these abilities as divine in nature, so I'm not sure I feel the world distinction. I suppose it could be defend with POW of 21 or Magic Defense+Pow, whichever is higher, but honestly that just makes MD suck even more. 

Thinking some more about it, it might be best just to dump those from RL and leave them in the Rune Priest toolkit.

11 minutes ago, Crel said:

It's important to remember that RLs only resist with POW 21. And I feel like they probably aren't running around often with full POW 18+ on tap due to enchanting, DI, maxing out RP, etc. Even if they are, a few points of Magic Attack could give the vital advantage in a magical contest between RLs.

No that's certainly true. But lots of spirits and demons out there will have POW 21+

11 minutes ago, Crel said:

Hrm. Probably 3 or 4, depending on how it's colored. I feel like the ability isn't inherently crazy--especially since theist characters aren't likely to have good skills in Spirit Travel, Spiritspeech, Spirit Lore, or Spirit Dance when they gain access to the Spirit World. If you phrase the fluff as "we can go visit the gods and pay homage in their world!" or "sort-of their world!", then this is definitely a tier 4 ability, and one which would be really important for a priest to have. Likely part of their magical role during worship services, like a defining feature in shaman-less Glorantha. In terms of raw power, I feel like it's probably around 2, maybe 3, until the adventurer's skills get good enough to use it properly.

I like that description of the ability! Also agree about the Priest needing it. I'm have some trouble doing a similar conversion since priests have such low skill barriers to entry. I'm trying to tie the steps with POW and Rune Points as well, so they feel a bit more limited. 

11 minutes ago, Crel said:

You get to mindlink the allied spirit in a way which is more powerful. You get to perform multiple actions per round without needing a Control (entity) or Command Cult Spirit spell cast, and without needing to take a full round off acting to give a new command. Your allied spirit can initiate into your cult and give you a second pool of Rune points. It's pretty strong.

Oh, no doubt they are powerful, I'm just not sure that they are that much more beneficial then having a bunch of bound spirits. 

Still, you are probably right, so how about this:

Upon Mastering their second skill, they can choose to either increase the previous abilities they gained, of pick from the following:

Access to Enchantment Spells (one point ability), Cure Disease, Second Sight (Enhanced)-you must have Second Sight to take this power, Show Spirit, or Spirit Mastery. As above, a character gains these abilities when they master the skill and attend the religious ceremony. Each mastered skill requires a different ceremony for its ability, and each ceremony allows the prospective candidate to sacrifice for additional levels as before.

Upon Mastering their third skill, they can choose to either increase the previous abilities they gained, of pick from the following:

Allied Spirit (first level grants standard allied spirit, each additional level grants the spirit +1d6 CHA or +1d3 POW), Expanded Presence, or Power Within. Learning these abilities requires a ceremony as above.

11 minutes ago, Crel said:

However, if you'd like allied spirits to be earlier, maybe you could downgrade them for tier 2, and upgrade into the full mindlink and shared RP pool at tier 3?

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear on all of my confusions. Initially, I read your text as "Only Rune Lords can take geese" and that each time they master a skill, they get a free ability. Then in the same ceremony, they may sacrifice characteristics for abilities. They can't sacrifice any more characteristics (or gain more abilities) until they've mastered another skill (they aren't allowed to do the special ceremony until then). Once an adventurer is a Rune Lord with five skills mastered and T5 unlocked, they can undergo the ceremony whenever they choose. How accurate is this?

That is pretty much correct. However, its not exactly that they can do it any time they want...they must still master a cult skill or wait till the High Holy day. After all cult skills are mastered, then they can do it every seasonal holy day. 

11 minutes ago, Crel said:

Yes. Yes it would...

Too much work for me...I'm out!

[gochie]

As I said before, I like the idea. But now that I think about it, why not just do a table of gifts and geasa for every god? 

Someone did some for several gods (I remember making an Uroxi with starting 90% in greatsword) many years ago as a house-rule that my GM adopted. It's a different power level than what you're going for, but it's probably easier in some ways to tailor to each cult, and still keeps a hard line between initiates and runelord. 

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

As I said before, I like the idea. But now that I think about it, why not just do a table of gifts and geasa for every god? 

Someone did some for several gods (I remember making an Uroxi with starting 90% in greatsword) many years ago as a house-rule that my GM adopted. It's a different power level than what you're going for, but it's probably easier in some ways to tailor to each cult, and still keeps a hard line between initiates and runelord. 

I'd love to see it if you could point me at a copy. That would be very cool. I think the lack of gifts and geas for every cult is a giant missed opportunity (and honestly I never understood why some gods had them and others didn't).

Regardless though the reasons I don't are:

a) I don't have that kind of time, sadly. This is the big one

b) I don't have a problem with gradual advancement in lieu of the all or nothing approach currently in use (I don't feel the need for a hard line between the ranks)

c) I want the shaman powers to see some use in my game (though I suppose I could do that via gifts)

d) It allows more player facing choice rather than random rolls that potentially screw their character (yes, geese are in this system but players don't have to take them and can still get some of the powers). 

Buuuut...if I had infinite time, I would love to make gifts and geas for all cults.

[Austin]

On 5/20/2019 at 9:03 AM, Tywyll said:

I don't use shaman in my game for various reasons, but I like their abilities and want to use them in game.

Just wondering, what are these reasons? Knowing what you're avoiding might help in futzing with how this Road to Rune Mastery works.