Delecti in the Upland Marsh... A homage?

[soltakss]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:50 PM, Joerg said:

My question is whether it was already well defined when Yelm stopped the previous cycles of day and night.

Maybe that's where Eurmal and Humakt went when they entered the Underworld in search of Death.

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/21/2020 at 9:34 PM, Joerg said:

That name is right next to Cacodemon and Mal(l)ia, EvilSpirit or TheBadOne.

Also Delecti, as in corpus delicti. 

Gods I hate some of the Gloranthan names. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

51 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also Delecti, as in corpus delicti. 

Gods I hate some of the Gloranthan names. 

listen, have you tried to enjoy Warhammer 40k novels written by Actual Authors? You're absolutely in the book. This author has actually written something fascinating. And then you face Gremulon, Lord of the Fartus Maximus

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also Delecti, as in corpus delicti. 

Gods I hate some of the Gloranthan names. 

I can't wait until we discover that the entirety of Glorantha has been leading up to one massive, world-shaking pun

[Qizilbashwoman]

25 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I can't wait until we discover that the entirety of Glorantha has been leading up to one massive, world-shaking pun

Actual question asked in a 40k lore that I literally stumbled upon after posting the above thing; included is the model in question, modeled after the ubiquitous imagery of medieval tapestry images of knights fighting rabbits on snailback and losing (this was some kind of medieval meme)

Edited January 26, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[Ian Absentia]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I can't wait until we discover that the entirety of Glorantha has been leading up to one massive, world-shaking pun

Why wait?  I reckon it's all right there in print already.

!i!

[davecake]

On 1/21/2020 at 9:51 PM, scott-martin said:

The controversy over throwing crowns appears in the Guide (407). The "mace" might be an older D&D joke. I'll look deeper.

I think the idea is that a ‘sceptre’ can be repurposed as a mace, though I admit to being somewhat confused between a scepter as a symbol of authority of a king, and a ceremonial mace (such as those used to open parliaments) which are also symbols of authority, but seem to descend from actual weapons used to enforce that authority? 
in any case, I think it’s a different idea (though similar) to the D&Dism of maces for clerics. 

[scott-martin]

33 minutes ago, davecake said:

I think the idea is that a ‘sceptre’ can be repurposed as a mace, though I admit to being somewhat confused between a scepter as a symbol of authority of a king, and a ceremonial mace (such as those used to open parliaments) which are also symbols of authority, but seem to descend from actual weapons used to enforce that authority? 

I love that. Part of the talar complex IMG revolves around sublimation and the creation of symbols, as opposed to the wizards who manipulate existing symbolic systems but rarely innovate. In this model, classical talar accoutrements would aspire toward the "poetic" or materially useless . . . and then the Seshnegite collapse would subvert that process by reclaiming these art objects as tools for murder (crossing the horal line) or other purposes. For all I know this is a persistent tension in historical hrestolite thought . . . do "the gunas revolve" and if so, how?

The caste founders definitely pre-date the D&D classes so any "joke" would have been reintroduced during Charlie Krank's abortive Western RQ build. One thing that's intriguing in there is the way talars get weapon skills like anyone else. They aren't especially well trained military specialists but there's nothing like a taboo against edged weapons that spill blood. It feels like further evidence that each of the classical castes was a separate society once before they were welded into their current hereditary specializations, while retaining vestigial traces of the lost functions throughout: talars once had warriors (who develop into military leaders), horals once had aristocrats whose end point is a little less clear, dronar people once had their own bosses, cops and magical specialists, etc. In this model only the most exemplary sub-castes would need to follow all restrictions and so the "talar of talars" would have only symbolic weapons. Others would retain or discover loopholes in the law.

On this note I keep trying to concoct a kind of caste tarot where the horals are obviously swords and the wizards are obviously wands while the dronarim do nicely as disks, leaving the talars the cup function. In this model the "sceptre" might be a glyph of wizard supremacy or at least the wand's dominance over the cup. If said sceptre is weaponized to achieve martial ambitions things get even more muddled. (The true birthright of Talar being the scales, of course.)

Edited January 27, 2020 by scott-martin
avoiding veering into complete psychosis

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I think the idea is that a ‘sceptre’ can be repurposed as a mace, though I admit to being somewhat confused between a scepter as a symbol of authority of a king, and a ceremonial mace (such as those used to open parliaments) which are also symbols of authority, but seem to descend from actual weapons used to enforce that authority? 
in any case, I think it’s a different idea (though similar) to the D&Dism of maces for clerics. 

I think Egypt is a big source, where the "smiting pose" of the Pharaoh, striking down his enemies, is a big and repeated deal.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Part of the talar complex IMG revolves around sublimation and the creation of symbols, as opposed to the wizards who manipulate existing symbolic systems but rarely innovate.

That's a cool idea!

[davecake]

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Part of the talar complex IMG revolves around sublimation and the creation of symbols, as opposed to the wizards who manipulate existing symbolic systems but rarely innovate.

I like it. Talars deal with the fluid and changeable symbolism of culture, rather than the unchanging nature of Law. 

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

One thing that's intriguing in there is the way talars get weapon skills like anyone else. They aren't especially well trained military specialists but there's nothing like a taboo against edged weapons that spill blood.

The Brithini seem shocked by the quite martial Seshnegi talars, but that may be the lack of the proper Talar virtues rather than fighting per se. 

The Zzaburi have a taboo against blood spilling, though. It might have more to do with the proper domain of the zzaburri being the purely mental.

 

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

It feels like further evidence that each of the classical castes was a separate society once before they were welded into their current hereditary specializations, while retaining vestigial traces of the lost functions throughout: talars once had warriors (who develop into military leaders), horals once had aristocrats whose end point is a little less clear, dronar people once had their own bosses, cops and magical specialists, etc

And parts of it survive in each of the castes still has their own courts and system of law, plus the traditions of the various internal to the caste institutions like guilds, warrior societies, schools of sorcery, etc. The Western societies have the equivalents of separate martial law, canon law, commercial law, etc. 

And these separate caste societies live on with the Vadeli, who have been forced build up the dronar and horal sorcery traditions a great deal. I think Brown Vadeli sorcery is mostly descended from ancient dronar magic - the deceptive magic of the Telendarian school is mostly adapted from exploration and trade magic, they command various beast servants through ancient animal husbandry magic, they use a lot of magic that manipulates the physical world from craft magic, plus they have maritime magic as sailors.The Red Vadeli of course have plenty of straight up war and murder magic. The Vadeli mostly actually care about the letter of the law a great deal (they deliberately and joyfully betray the spirit of the law) when it comes to caste restrictions, their immortality requires it too.  But there is nothing in Brown or Red Vadeli law to support organising the broad institutions to organise an empire - so they seem to organise their leadership via maritime laws, great Vadeli leaders of the modern era all seem to be Admirals. And they welcomed Hrestol as a judge because it was really helpful (with the yellow Vadeli already extinct before the dawn) to have someone who could easily resolve inter-caste disputes (Vadeli would refuse to do so because it would be usurping the talar caste role, and so risking their immortality). 

 

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

On this note I keep trying to concoct a kind of caste tarot where the horals are obviously swords and the wizards are obviously wands while the dronarim do nicely as disks, leaving the talars the cup function. In this model the "sceptre" might be a glyph of wizard supremacy or at least the wand's dominance over the cup. If said sceptre is weaponized to achieve martial ambitions things get even more muddled. (The true birthright of Talar being the scales, of course.)

Note the Dara Happans use sceptres of Authority as well - Yelm has one on the Gods Wall. Apparently the Dara Happan Imperial Sceptre is in the likeness of Dayzatar. The Western use is probably more symbolic, perhaps  a Mastery or Law rune on a stick?

The third accoutrement of authority is the Orb, I think? At least is was mentioned in a few old sources IIRC (including mention of it being used a weapon like a shotput). In our world, this was a specific Christian symbol, the globus cruciger symbolising Christian dominion over the globe, but of course there a lot of things wrong with that in Glorantha! It may have been omitted from the Guide intentionally? An alternate symbolism is that of something like the Eye That Pierces the Veil that is the symbol of God Forgot? 

The Dara Happan Orb of authority this time seems totally different - their orb is a magical thing that hovers above the head of the ruler. Though it also gets referred to as the Orb Of the Eye. 

[scott-martin]

All great things but I should be doing homework so just one flourish . . . 

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

The third accoutrement of authority is the Orb, I think? At least is was mentioned in a few old sources IIRC (including mention of it being used a weapon like a shotput). In our world, this was a specific Christian symbol, the globus cruciger symbolising Christian dominion over the globe, but of course there a lot of things wrong with that in Glorantha! It may have been omitted from the Guide intentionally? An alternate symbolism is that of something like the Eye That Pierces the Veil that is the symbol of God Forgot?

Still trying to find the talar "ceremonial" weapons . . . it sounds like a Brooke thing but the source is as elusive as that original "Adventurism and Angazabism" quote. The cross is challenging but I do it as a saltire and make it more about alchemical fixation so we can recover the Greg bit in TOTRM 13: 

Crusaders are carriers of the [cross], an ancient symbol inherited from the mythical Kingdom of Logic, which existed before the gods destroyed the Old World. Prince Hrestol's initiatory experience was outlined in a secret map which was cross-shaped: from the central court he traveled to a test suitable for a member of each social class, then achieved the final challenge at the center to succeed at the initiation. When he returned, he bore the sword named Justice of the Ages, into whose hilt the [X] sign was cast. The [X] sign became an initiatory secret: a symbol of having achieved the salvation symbolized in the public sign of the triangle. [.'.] Only the ruling noblemen [!] wore it openly, usually as an addition to their personal coat of arms. Outsiders usually think that it is strictly a badge of office.

This has the added advantage of telling us something about historical Hrestolism without muddling down into earthly religious symbolism or even the familiar Death Rune, although it's hard to fix an X on top of an orb. Maybe it's surrounded by "hrestol crosses" like the Sacred Heart! Anyhow maybe this is the year we Go West together.

[davecake]

OR a completely alternate theory for the swordbreaker- instead, it could be an innovation of the Delecti lineage of EWF associated vampires, and the swordbreaker and shortsword combination is in imitation of the dragonnewt gami (also a three lobed disarming weapon) and utuma short blade. 
ok, so the Daughters of Darkness who serve Delecti don’t seem to use the sword breaker. But still, two different three prong disarming weapons seems quite the coincidence.... 
 

[Joerg]

The sword-breaker may be so popular because it takes care of those awful and sharp death runes fetishized by the Vivamorti enemy cult of Humakt.

[davecake]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The sword-breaker may be so popular because it takes care of those awful and sharp death runes fetishized by the Vivamorti enemy cult of Humakt.

Absolutely, but I'm seeking an evocative explanation why its preferred to, say, nets, mancatcher polearms, sai, and various other disarming weapons. 

[Joerg]

This might be scepter-derived. From the impression of the Vampire Kings of Tanisor and nowadays the royals of Ramalia, the Vivamort cult (not the deity, but the cult) may have its origin in westernized nobility. Enerali and/or Pendali nobility.

The net is a worker class weapon, and so are whips, bolas, flails, pole arms and hay forks (sai). A thrown weighted cloak might be a standard weapon, but that manoeuver risks damaging the vampire's armor against light.

Depending on their cohabitants, they might use pratzim sticks instead.