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10 hours ago, Leingod said:

One thing that's stuck with me from King of Dragon Pass for my portrayal of Orlanthi pastimes is kite-flying games and competitions, like this one:

I think there's even a line somewhere that a kite-fight was how Orlanth convinced Kolat to join the Storm Tribe.

There is an example adventure in HeroQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha (aka HQ1), which has the title Chasing Kites. This adventure is about recovering a sacred kite, which has been stolen by a giant raven during a kite-fighting contest. Here the kites are used in the context of ancestor worship.

Edited by Oracle

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1 hour ago, Leingod said:

Kites were popular and important throughout the Polynesian diaspora, as far-off as New Zealand; these were made with cloth rather than paper. In Tahiti, they even used them to help propel their rafts.

http://islandheritage.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/RNJ_12_2_Henry.pdf

Just look up "Polynesian kites" and you can see some of the designs:

20100415-wubbo-ockelsvliegers-om-energie

Cheers, that's really cool!

Now that I think about it, birchbark  fibres might be usable for something like this, if it's strong enough.

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53 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I just knew I had to see that. Gorgeous! Any idea about the purple kite and does it have meaning or representation other than to be scary?

Cheers

No clue, though I like how it seems to have lightning bolts for pupils and its mouth and those things on the side of its "face" seem to have swirling designs that call to mind either whirlpools or winds.

28 minutes ago, Oracle said:

There is an example adventure in HeroQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha (aka HQ1), which has the title Chasing Kites. This adventure is about recovering a sacred kite, which has been stolen by a giant raven during a kite-fighting contest. Here the kites are used in the context of ancestor worship.

It certainly makes sense for them to figure into ritual worship for Storm worshipers.

I bet when the kite-fights get really competitive people start bringing out magic to command the winds to mess up the competition or help their own kite slice through the enemy kites. I can just imagine a bunch of Windlords throwing around powerful magic and getting really intense and serious about flying kites to prove who holds the blessing of Orlanth.

Heck, that's probably what the kite-fight between Orlanth and Kolat was; a competition between the two to determine which of them had the better mastery over the wind. Just handled by the two in a much more peaceful fashion than it would have been with, say, Vadrus or Storm Bull.

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2 hours ago, Leingod said:

Heck, that's probably what the kite-fight between Orlanth and Kolat was; a competition between the two to determine which of them had the better mastery over the wind. Just handled by the two in a much more peaceful fashion than it would have been with, say, Vadrus or Storm Bull.

Makes a lot of sense.

There's a lot of anthropological texts on how sports are, at least partially, subliminated warfare. In the Orlanthi case, kite-flying is subliminated Storm-control, or possibly even Flying Duels or something.

Doesn't hurt that it's artful and fun as well, of course.

Specific kites may be symbolic of specific ancestors, or spirits. Hell, someone particularly powerful might even bind a spirit to a kite for all I know. The mix of different kites might serve as some kind of divining ritual, with a competitive side giving boons to whoever's the winner. 

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18 hours ago, Leingod said:

No clue, though I like how it seems to have lightning bolts for pupils and its mouth and those things on the side of its "face" seem to have swirling designs that call to mind either whirlpools or winds.

18 hours ago, Oracle said:

Yes, that made me think of Prince of Sartar and the way what I thought was fluff (wrong word, but) was actually the important part of the picture.

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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Well it's Canada Day up Canada Way as Stomping Tom Conners use to sing. A truly Canadian national treasure if we ever had one.

And against Canada Day's growing dark skies the city has splashed a rainbow of colours accentuated by the bangs hisses and sizzles of... fireworks. Accompanied by the acrid smells of..? black powder, cordite? Most definitely my favourite use of gun powder on the Blue Marble. 

And everyone loves that merrye olde wizard, Gandalf! When one thinks fireworks, often ones mind turns to Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday. But, of course, we are not on the blue marble or in the delightful farms and glens of the shire in middle earth, but luckily we are on our favourite place with the middle world—the green lozenge. So, that leads me to my topic, actually questions. 

What are fireworks like on the lozenge. I think the Mostal have black powder We know they have muskets, flintlock pistols and cannon. (Yes Shiningbrow... sigh... this is canonnical). But Marvellous fireworks that cause children such wonder some have been known to fall over backwards while watching them soar overhead (why are you looking at me, it wasn't me, honest). 

So, can we look forward to fireworks on liberation day in Boldhome each year? Are fireworks Mostali, only, if they exist? Can one buy fireworks otherwise, or make fireworks and avcid gobblers and nilmergs (where is that Eurmali spell book, I must have misplaced it in my other cloak)?

Cheers

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1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Well it's Canada Day up Canada Way as Stomping Tom Conners use to sing. A truly Canadian national treasure if we ever had one.

And against Canada Day's growing dark skies the city has splashed a rainbow of colours accentuated by the bangs hisses and sizzles of... fireworks. Accompanied by the acrid smells of..? black powder, cordite? Most definitely my favourite use of gun powder on the Blue Marble. 

And everyone loves that merrye olde wizard, Gandalf! When one thinks fireworks, often ones mind turns to Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday. But, of course, we are not on the blue marble or in the delightful farms and glens of the shire in middle earth, but luckily we are on our favourite place with the middle world—the green lozenge. So, that leads me to my topic, actually questions. 

What are fireworks like on the lozenge. I think the Mostal have black powder We know they have muskets, flintlock pistols and cannon. (Yes Shiningbrow... sigh... this is canonnical). But Marvellous fireworks that cause children such wonder some have been known to fall over backwards while watching them soar overhead (why are you looking at me, it wasn't me, honest). 

So, can we look forward to fireworks on liberation day in Boldhome each year? Are fireworks Mostali, only, if they exist? Can one buy fireworks otherwise, or make fireworks and avcid gobblers and nilmergs (where is that Eurmali spell book, I must have misplaced it in my other cloak)?

Cheers

I could imagine, that Donandar entertainers use their illusion magic to create effects similar to fireworks on our blue marble without any need for black powder ...

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6 minutes ago, Oracle said:

I could imagine, that Donandar entertainers use their illusion magic to create effects similar to fireworks on our blue marble without any need for black powder ...

I would be truly afraid to imagine what a Eurmali could devise in that case.

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I'm pretty sure the Mostali would object to Cannon Cult powers being used in this fashion.

I suspect the Lunars have something, given their absorption of the Dara Happan Fire-oriented cults + their own Glamour &Illusion magics.

Q:  do the Crater Makers count as "fireworks?" (n.b. Eurmali answers don't count)

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There's a whole bunch of Mesoamerican ball games, including one, still played today, which sounds like some net-less volleyball, and another one that sounds like some proto-basketball where you need to put the ball through a hoop.

The talk about the Shovetide Football however reminded me of the history of Lacrosse (Canada's summer sport), and how it dates back to around 1100AD Native American communities. According to the Wikipedia article (and some similar statements I found at some local Lacrosse museum):

Quote

In the traditional aboriginal Canadian version, each team consisted of about 100 to 1,000 men on a field several miles (several kilometers) long.[3] These games lasted from sunup to sundown for two to three days straight and were played as part of ceremonial ritual, a kind of symbolic warfare, or to give thanks to the Creator or Master.

 

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Bull Leaping

A genuine Bronze age activity dating back to the 18th century BC in Egypt but best know from the frescoes from Knossos. Bull leaping is still practiced in Spain today.  

There is an obvious Dragon Pass connection with the cult of Storm Bull. It could be a simple entertainment, a cult ritual for Storm Bull or an Orlanthi test of Kingship.   

Bull-leaping.jpg

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2 hours ago, albinoboo said:

There is an obvious Dragon Pass connection with the cult of Storm Bull. It could be a simple entertainment, a cult ritual for Storm Bull or an Orlanthi test of Kingship.

Culbrea Tribe: Alright, if you can leap over these bulls, you'll be our king.

Hofstaring Treeleaper: 😏

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Hmmm.

The earliest I knew was the Cretan/Minoan stuff.  That most-obviously goes to Esrolia, and pairs rather naturally with their whole "master the fierce warrior to your service, without ever fighting him" ideas.

Egypt, you say?

Hmmm.

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5 minutes ago, g33k said:

Hmmm.

The earliest I knew was the Cretan/Minoan stuff.  That most-obviously goes to Esrolia, and pairs rather naturally with their whole "master the fierce warrior to your service, without ever fighting him" ideas.

Egypt, you say?

Hmmm.

I was about to say.

I kind of see Bull Leaping as some kind of Esrolian "Earth Masters Storm" ritual.

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9 minutes ago, g33k said:

The earliest I knew was the Cretan/Minoan stuff.  That most-obviously goes to Esrolia, and pairs rather naturally with their whole "master the fierce warrior to your service, without ever fighting him" ideas.

 

Though I have not evidence, I do wonder...  the Gilgamesh, Enkidu battle is a strong dichotomy of urban versus rural and Man versus Beast, if the founder of Babylon can battle wild beast and tame it and bring it into man's realm might not man demonstrate and celebrate this myth with a battle twixt man and a tamed/wild bull? Could the battle between man and bull be even older?

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Hmmm.

The earliest I knew was the Cretan/Minoan stuff.  That most-obviously goes to Esrolia, and pairs rather naturally with their whole "master the fierce warrior to your service, without ever fighting him" ideas.

Egypt, you say?

Hmmm.

It's one of those arguments things. The earliest date of clear bull leaping art is in Egypt but in a style that is more Minoan than Egyptian. There is also arguments about  motifs on cylinder seals found in Syria dating to the 18th century BC. It could well be Minoan in origin but the earliest evidence is outside Crete. 

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5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was about to say.

I kind of see Bull Leaping as some kind of Esrolian "Earth Masters Storm" ritual.

My thinking was Orlanth Rex demonstrating that he can take the wilder side of the Storm tribe without killing. There is another way verus violence is always an option. A king would need the raw strength of Storm Bull and the ability to control the wildness of Storm Bull. I also thought that it would show having no chaos taint. 

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6 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

My thinking was Orlanth Rex demonstrating that he can take the wilder side of the Storm tribe without killing. There is another way verus violence is always an option. A king would need the raw strength of Storm Bull and the ability to control the wildness of Storm Bull. I also thought that it would show having no chaos taint. 

If we stick with the Minoan representations, I believe they are believed to show women vaulting the bull, which is partially why I'd like to see it as an Ernaldan ritual.

Plus, it doesn't hurt to give the ladies/Earth more daring and action-filled stuff to do.

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1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If we stick with the Minoan representations, I believe they are believed to show women vaulting the bull, which is partially why I'd like to see it as an Ernaldan ritual.

I can definitely see this occurring in Esrolia!

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FWIW, some Googling finds the practice pretty well attested in ancient times, as far as the Indus valley.

Honestly, it looks like fixing an "origin" isn't something that can be done from the evidence to date...

But yeah, Esrolian "Earth tames Storm" ritual seems like the natural Gloranthan thing.

YGMV (I also like "Orlanth Rex tames Storm Bull" -- but then again, that whole Rex'ian "there is another way" schtick is something that Big O got from his wife (not a word, Bill... not one word)).

 

Edited by g33k
autocorrect isn't

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2 minutes ago, g33k said:

FWIW, some Googling finds the practice pretty well attested in ancient times, as far as the Indus valley.

Honestly, it looks like fixing an "origin" isn't something that can be done from the evidence to date...

But yeah, Esrolian "Earth games Storm" ritual seems like the natural Gloranthan thing.

YGMV (I also like "Orlanth Rex tames Storm Bull" -- but then again, that whole Rex'ian "there is another way" schtick is something that Big O got from his wife (not a word, Bill... not one word)).

 

Yeah, both representations work, really. Might have one Heortling and one Esrolian, with different mythical interpretations, for example.

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16 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I can definitely see this occurring in Esrolia!

Though I believe Jeff has noted elsewhere that this is definitely not part of Esrolian culture. While there are aspects of Esrolia that have similarities to Minoan real-life, it's not Minoa lifted to Glorantha.

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25 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Though I believe Jeff has noted elsewhere that this is definitely not part of Esrolian culture. While there are aspects of Esrolia that have similarities to Minoan real-life, it's not Minoa lifted to Glorantha.

Sorry  I had no intention of implying the minoan culture as a whole,  I was only referring to the image of a woman "vaulting the bull, which is partially why I'd like to see it as an Ernaldan ritual." that Sir_Godspeed noted. 

Note. I was referring in my earlier post to pre-minoan, possibly pre-babylonian and should have said that again, oops.

Man you got's to be so careful around here with all grognards just what ya say

:)

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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29 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I was only referring to the image of a woman "vaulting the bull, which is partially why I'd like to see it as an Ernaldan ritual.

That's actually the specific piece noted as not being part of Esrolian culture. 

That said, there's no reason it can't be part of your Esrolian culture, or be discovered in some part of Esrolia or from some period in the past. Or perhaps it's part of the bull-worshipping culture of Charg or Anadikki?

32 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Man you got's to be so careful around here with all grognards just what ya say

🙂 I try not to dampen these trains of thought too much... It's always more interesting to see or ask about the possibilities than not. But there are some aspects of the cultures that have been addressed in more detail that have been noted as not present - for Esrolia I can think of bull-riding and the idea of sacrificial year-kings.

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16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That's actually the specific piece noted as not being part of Esrolian culture. 

 

Ah alas, but of course as you say one's Esrolia might vary.

16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

🙂 I try not to dampen these trains of thought too much... It's always more interesting to see or ask about the possibilities than not. But there are some aspects of the cultures that have been addressed in more detail that have been noted as not present - for Esrolia I can think of bull-riding and the idea of sacrificial year-kings.

You never do! Your writings usually give wings to those trains of thoughts, so that they might leap from the confining rails to new heights.

No, that was a small joke/observation that sometimes I feel myself spending more time in an email double checking for errors so that no one will pounce on me for a goof I did not catch, invalidating everything else I might say that it sucks some of the joy out of it all. 

Cheers

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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