Why so locked setting

[Arneberg]

Hi i love runequest but i´m not so much for the barbarian settlers things with the background of herders and so on i like the mythology but think they have overdone this things i want more city things with better opertunities for thiever and so on i love all the background and allt the stuff but i still think it is to locked on the tribal thingy but hope they do some west things backgrounds(glorantha) and maybe some from Jrusteli a campaign maybe so one not feel so locked in with the bison riders and so on Otherwise as said i love runequest best regards Arne

[Shiningbrow]

I know there is a LOT more information coming on this. I don't know if that will include helping with character creation... It should, but I don't know.

If we're lucky, before the end of the year.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 6/14/2019 at 1:03 PM, Arneberg said:

Hi i love runequest but i´m not so much for the barbarian settlers things with the background of herders and so on i like the mythology but think they have overdone this things i want more city things with better opertunities for thiever and so on i love all the background and allt the stuff but i still think it is to locked on the tribal thingy but hope they do some west things backgrounds(glorantha) and maybe some from Jrusteli a campaign maybe so one not feel so locked in with the bison riders and so on Otherwise as said i love runequest best regards Arne

If you do not mind a little handwaving and arbitrating spells and skills that are a little different (BRP rules which I believe are based on RQ 2), I truly must recommend the original urban setting for RQ, Pavis and the Big Rubble. Though they are for RQ 2 (again, BRP) they are available as one PDF under Glorantha Classics, and they are cheap (ish). Comes complete with an urban sand box with a massive dungeon complex very near at hand and ruins inhabited by am elder race or three (with interesting and shining things carelessly left lying around for the right fingers to come across). and a couple of cults for your urban adventurer with loose morals and a couple of ready built adventures for such folk. Might satisfy until the real thing comes along. 

Cheers

Edited June 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[soltakss]

On 6/14/2019 at 8:03 PM, Arneberg said:

Hi i love runequest but i´m not so much for the barbarian settlers things with the background of herders and so on i like the mythology but think they have overdone this things i want more city things with better opertunities for thiever and so on i love all the background and allt the stuff but i still think it is to locked on the tribal thingy but hope they do some west things backgrounds(glorantha) and maybe some from Jrusteli a campaign maybe so one not feel so locked in with the bison riders and so on Otherwise as said i love runequest best regards Arne

You are not the only one. I remember the fond days of RQ2 when Orlanthi weren't all backwoods farmer clans, most of the Orlanthi in my parties were townsfolk, far more sensible and civilised. When Hero Wars and the farmer Clans came out very strongly, we reasoned that these were the hill barbarians, the Orlanthi that we were used to came from Sartar's cities or from the Holy Country, so we had a split between civilised Orlanthi and their hillbilly clan-based cousins.

12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

If you do not mind a little handwaving and arbitrating spells and skills that are a little different (BRP rules which I believe are based on RQ 2), I truly must recommend the original urban setting for RQ, Pavis and the Big Rubble. Though they are for RQ 2 (again, BRP) they are available as one PDF under Glorantha Classics, and they are cheap (ish). Comes complete with an urban sand box with a massive dungeon complex very near at hand and ruins inhabited by am elder race or three (with interesting and shining things carelessly left lying around for the right fingers to come across). and a couple of cults for your urban adventurer with loose morals and a couple of ready built adventures for such folk. Might satisfy until the real thing comes along. 

I would definitely second buying the RQ2 Campaign packs, Scenario Packs and Background Packs. You can put together truly impressive scenario arcs just using published material, plenty to go through until the new RQG material comes out.

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You are not the only one. I remember the fond days of RQ2 when Orlanthi weren't all backwoods farmer clans, most of the Orlanthi in my parties were townsfolk, far more sensible and civilised. When Hero Wars and the farmer Clans came out very strongly, we reasoned that these were the hill barbarians, the Orlanthi that we were used to came from Sartar's cities or from the Holy Country, so we had a split between civilised Orlanthi and their hillbilly clan-based cousins.

12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Ironically, Arneberg's original complaint was all the rage back in the pre internet days that we used telegraph messages, smoke signals and dial up modems to communicate, Though, then an Orlanthi All was wondering why the urbans were so well represented and when would we get back to Sartar and carry on from Apple Lane. La plus ça change...

Cheers

Edited June 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

On 6/14/2019 at 12:03 PM, Arneberg said:

Hi i love runequest but i´m not so much for the barbarian settlers things with the background of herders and so on i like the mythology but think they have overdone this things i want more city things with better opertunities for thiever and so on i love all the background and allt the stuff but i still think it is to locked on the tribal thingy but hope they do some west things backgrounds(glorantha) and maybe some from Jrusteli a campaign maybe so one not feel so locked in with the bison riders and so on Otherwise as said i love runequest best regards Arne

As per the above, in the RQ2 line.  Easily upgraded to RQG.

Nochet is coming.  Urban, matriarchal, soft power via politics & trade & arranged marriages &... Yes, and blackmail, assassination, etc.

Casino Town & Holy Country.

Updates are coming for Pavis&Rubble, for Sun County.  Trollpak is coming, both the RQ2 Classic (via RQClassic KS) and an all-new, likely RQG set.

They had to start somewhere.

Given that this IS the edition that (finally) centers on the Hero Wars, beginning in Dragon Pass seems utterly sensible; and the core book was ALREADY big, I'm not sure I see addung more cultures / backgrounds / Cults / etc as a smart move.

One omission that I think hurts a bit is not (or at least, not sufficiently) highlighting the "urban Orlanthi" of Boldhome/etc.  The city/country dichotomy is substantive!  I would expect a brand-new Adventurer from a family settled for generations in Boldhome to be rather different from one whose clan has been on the Stead since the time of Sartar himself...

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by g33k
Editor likes to screw with edited-in paragraphs

[albinoboo]

In my version, each city in Sartar had a urban tribe. This tribe contained the poor and middle classes but the wealthy and holders of priesthoods were members of a rural tribe. Each urban clan was responsible for  an area of the city for civil and infrastructure matters.  Things like fire fighting, maintenance of roads, walls and minor shrines, minor legal disputes and crimes.  However urban tribe members were excluded from the city ring. The Lunars tried to exploit this and the PCs tried to stop the Lunar agents. 

[Joerg]

Just now, albinoboo said:

In my version, each city in Sartar had a urban tribe. This tribe contained the poor and middle classes but the wealthy and holders of priesthoods were members of a rural tribe. Each urban clan was responsible for  an area of the city for civil and infrastructure matters.  Things like fire fighting, maintenance of roads, walls and minor shrines, minor legal disputes and crimes.  However urban tribe members were excluded from the city ring. The Lunars tried to exploit this and the PCs tried to stop the Lunar agents. 

Your version isn't that far from the model the tribal confederation cities of Sartar work. Urban clans are called Guilds, and they usually don't have direct affiliations to a single of the constituent tribes. Guild members make up probably half of the citizenry of the cities (not counting the non-citizen paupers accumulating in the cities that may have no votes in the mayoral elections).

Exclusion from the city rings is unlikely, IMO, but the city rings will be geared towards a majority of the constituent tribal leaders if they agree on a point of policy. If the city ring has seven members, and each tribe has one guaranteed seat, then the urban population has at best two or three seats. If you look at the mayor of Wilmskirk in Sartar High Council (a freeform published in Wyrms Footnotes and reprinted in Wyrm's Footprints), you have proof of guild involvement in the city ring.

Each tribe supports something like an urban clan of tribesfolk resident in the city. While they may not be kin in the sense of rural clans, they are represented by the tribal king or his deputy on the ring, and that person will have the say in the allocation of tribal land and buildings inside the city, and represent them in legal disputes inside the city.

Some guilds or temples will be land-owners in the city, too, while others are mostly tenants of the tribes. Non-citizens can be resident tenants, too.

Tribal members are citizens, but what happens if your clan dissolved due to war, famine or other catastrophes? Can the survivors that fled into the city still claim tribal membership even though the clan that was a member isn't any more?

Tribal residents are part of the city militia, and are expected to participate in urban upkeep, too, even if their residence is only temporary (say for a few years before returning to their clans).

There are other temporary residents in the cities, e.g. mercenary companies headquartered here. It isn't quite clear whether such groups are here as sworn guests or companions of some urban faction, as sworn guests or companions of the city ring, or by some other formal agreement.

I also expect there to be some royal land inside each of the cities, with e.g. the Cult of Geo as tenants.

[albinoboo]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Your version isn't that far from the model the tribal confederation cities of Sartar work. Urban clans are called Guilds, and they usually don't have direct affiliations to a single of the constituent tribes. Guild members make up probably half of the citizenry of the cities (not counting the non-citizen paupers accumulating in the cities that may have no votes in the mayoral elections).

Exclusion from the city rings is unlikely, IMO, but the city rings will be geared towards a majority of the constituent tribal leaders if they agree on a point of policy. If the city ring has seven members, and each tribe has one guaranteed seat, then the urban population has at best two or three seats. If you look at the mayor of Wilmskirk in Sartar High Council (a freeform published in Wyrms Footnotes and reprinted in Wyrm's Footprints), you have proof of guild involvement in the city ring.

Each tribe supports something like an urban clan of tribesfolk resident in the city. While they may not be kin in the sense of rural clans, they are represented by the tribal king or his deputy on the ring, and that person will have the say in the allocation of tribal land and buildings inside the city, and represent them in legal disputes inside the city.

Some guilds or temples will be land-owners in the city, too, while others are mostly tenants of the tribes. Non-citizens can be resident tenants, too.

Tribal members are citizens, but what happens if your clan dissolved due to war, famine or other catastrophes? Can the survivors that fled into the city still claim tribal membership even though the clan that was a member isn't any more?

Tribal residents are part of the city militia, and are expected to participate in urban upkeep, too, even if their residence is only temporary (say for a few years before returning to their clans).

There are other temporary residents in the cities, e.g. mercenary companies headquartered here. It isn't quite clear whether such groups are here as sworn guests or companions of some urban faction, as sworn guests or companions of the city ring, or by some other formal agreement.

I also expect there to be some royal land inside each of the cities, with e.g. the Cult of Geo as tenants.

I was using the real world Roman Republic before the tribunes as a model. The  clans act like an Athenian deme or a Sienese contrada. 

[g33k]

40 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Your version isn't that far from the model the tribal confederation cities of Sartar work. Urban clans are called Guilds, and they usually don't have direct affiliations to a single of the constituent tribes. Guild members make up probably half of the citizenry of the cities (not counting the non-citizen paupers accumulating in the cities that may have no votes in the mayoral elections).

Exclusion from the city rings is unlikely, IMO, but the city rings will be geared towards a majority of the constituent tribal leaders if they agree on a point of policy. If the city ring has seven members, and each tribe has one guaranteed seat, then the urban population has at best two or three seats. If you look at the mayor of Wilmskirk in Sartar High Council (a freeform published in Wyrms Footnotes and reprinted in Wyrm's Footprints), you have proof of guild involvement in the city ring.

 Each tribe supports something like an urban clan of tribesfolk resident in the city. While they may not be kin in the sense of rural clans, they are represented by the tribal king or his deputy on the ring, and that person will have the say in the allocation of tribal land and buildings inside the city, and represent them in legal disputes inside the city.

 Some guilds or temples will be land-owners in the city, too, while others are mostly tenants of the tribes. Non-citizens can be resident tenants, too.

Tribal members are citizens, but what happens if your clan dissolved due to war, famine or other catastrophes? Can the survivors that fled into the city still claim tribal membership even though the clan that was a member isn't any more?

Tribal residents are part of the city militia, and are expected to participate in urban upkeep, too, even if their residence is only temporary (say for a few years before returning to their clans).

There are other temporary residents in the cities, e.g. mercenary companies headquartered here. It isn't quite clear whether such groups are here as sworn guests or companions of some urban faction, as sworn guests or companions of the city ring, or by some other formal agreement.

I also expect there to be some royal land inside each of the cities, with e.g. the Cult of Geo as tenants.

This is all good stuff... but at the table, when my player sits down to make a new adventurer whose ENTIRE FAMILY is from cities (Boldhome, Wilmskirk, Jonstown, Clearwine, whatever...) then I need the family backgrounds & available skills to reflect that.

Dunno... maybe just do an ounce-of-common-sense approach; but the basic skills &c from an urban upbringing will be different from a pastoralist upbringing...

 

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

I was using the real world Roman Republic before the tribunes as a model. The  clans act like an Athenian deme or a Sienese contrada. 

Did you use Rome itself, or did you use e.g. the formerly Etruscan or Latian cities under Rome's dominion for that model?

The Sartarite cities are all fairly recent, about six generations ago, or less. They are somewhat different from Greek or Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies in the lack of strong bonds to founding cities in a distant motherland. The Etruscan settlement and the formation of their cities might be a better parallel, the establishment of the La Tene oppida, or (slightly outside of the Ancient parallel) the Hanseatic cities along the Baltic coast. All of these happened within a generation or two, in many cases as planned cities.

The Tarshite cities (including Alda-Chur) are older than this, as are the tribal towns of Runegate and Clearwine. In contrast, the last founding citizens of New Pavis are just dying out, and quite a few of the founders of Alone are still alive.

 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

This is all good stuff... but at the table, when my player sits down to make a new adventurer whose ENTIRE FAMILY is from cities (Boldhome, Wilmskirk, Jonstown, Clearwine, whatever...) then I need the family backgrounds & available skills to reflect that.

Dunno... maybe just do an ounce-of-common-sense approach; but the basic skills &c from an urban upbringing will be different from a pastoralist upbringing...

You can be from one of those cities and still be a tribal citizen, with ties to a rural clan and some shared experience with the farmers there, or you can be a guild member, in which case I would replace the farming-related skills with crafts. Military careers would draw on such civilian experience, too.

Thieves or criminals as a background have it harder.

While there certainly are non-citizen residents organized in parasitical gangs, most cities of Sartar are too small to have much of an underworld activitiy. The criminal activities of Alone probably are in the hands of Griselda's family and maybe one rival family, and some of that "crime" may be semi-legitimate tarriff-avoidance against privileges imposed by the (now former) occupators, like the Hazia trade.

Burglary or muggings are rarely targeting locals, or formal guests of locals. When they do, the locals mobilize their own ruffians to deal with such intruders. This leaves either visiting criminals to make heists against locals, or local scum predating on unprotected visitors of the city. Including rural yokels, even though they usually belong to constituent tribes. Regular visitors of these cities will have resident kin with ties to local ruffians, and targeting them may lead to the perpretators being forced to leave the city.

Local ruffians may target sufficiently weak-looking new arrivals to get their measure. Use the "Welcome to the city" guidelines in the Pavis box (or RQ Classic) for such interaction, and possibly make any criminal characters with urban background former members of such a gang. Lanbril will be rare as a criminal cult. Argan Argar has all the magics for a smuggler organisation, with a respectable front and a shady side. Black Fang and Krarsht may have an operative or two in the city to provide the executive cult members with intelligence, but if they have a local chapter, that would probably avoid too much activity around their hiding place.

 

[Dragonsnail]

On 6/23/2019 at 12:43 AM, g33k said:

As per the above, in the RQ2 line.  Easily upgraded to RQG.

Nochet is coming.  Urban, matriarchal, soft power via politics & trade & arranged marriages &... Yes, and blackmail, assassination, etc.

Casino Town & Holy Country. 

Updates are coming for Pavis&Rubble, for Sun County.  Trollpak is coming, both the RQ2 Classic (via RQClassic KS) and an all-new, likely RQG set.

They had to start somewhere.

Given that this IS the edition that (finally) centers on the Hero Wars, beginning in Dragon Pass seems utterly sensible; and the core book was ALREADY big, I'm not sure I see addung more cultures / backgrounds / Cults / etc as a smart move.

One omission that I think hurts a bit is not (or at least, not sufficiently) highlighting the "urban Orlanthi" of Boldhome/etc.  The city/country dichotomy is substantive!  I would expect a brand-new Adventurer from a family settled for generations in Boldhome to be rather different from one whose clan has been on the Stead since the time of Sartar himself...

 

Books on Nochet, Esrolia and the Holy Country, I want that very much. It's very close to Sartar but different in culture and a huge city to explore.

[albinoboo]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Did you use Rome itself, or did you use e.g. the formerly Etruscan or Latian cities under Rome's dominion for that model?

The Sartarite cities are all fairly recent, about six generations ago, or less. They are somewhat different from Greek or Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies in the lack of strong bonds to founding cities in a distant motherland. The Etruscan settlement and the formation of their cities might be a better parallel, the establishment of the La Tene oppida, or (slightly outside of the Ancient parallel) the Hanseatic cities along the Baltic coast. All of these happened within a generation or two, in many cases as planned cities.

The Tarshite cities (including Alda-Chur) are older than this, as are the tribal towns of Runegate and Clearwine. In contrast, the last founding citizens of New Pavis are just dying out, and quite a few of the founders of Alone are still alive.

 

The Tribunes came into existence after 30 years of the Republic. In a more general case, the first 250 years of the Roman Republic, the main domestic issue was the conflict of orders. The Patricians were slowly forced to open all the offices and  the major priesthoods to plebians. The voting system of the Republic, throughout its existence, was rigged in favour of the rural tribes as opposed to the urban tribes. The rural poor could not afford to go to Rome for elections leaving the wealthiest votes to count the most.

[gochie]

I agree that it would be nice to get more diversity, but I guess they needed to start somewhere with the new version. It is easier to introduce updated rules with the culture people already know best.