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Question: Encumbrance, Fatigue


davidw

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As I can't find any relevant errata, I thought I would pose two rules questions here. Any assistance would be very much appreciated.

I can't make heads or tails of the 'Non-Human Encumbrance' rules on page 180. Could anyone provide an example? They really don't seem to make any sense at all.

Also, the Fatigue Points (p.32) rules state that Encumbrance affects Fatigue, but neither the Fatigue Points rules nor the Encumbrance rules state HOW. Any thoughts?

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I can't make heads or tails of the 'Non-Human Encumbrance' rules on page 180. Could anyone provide an example? They really don't seem to make any sense at all.

Yeah - that is a little oddly worded. RQ3, from memory, stated that horses, and other beasts of burden can handle 4 times the encumbrance of a human with the same STR and SIZ.

Also, the Fatigue Points (p.32) rules state that Encumbrance affects Fatigue, but neither the Fatigue Points rules nor the Encumbrance rules state HOW. Any thoughts?
Again, remembering RQ3, I believe total ENC was subtracted from Fatigue. So a character with a STR & CON of 13, would have 26 FP. If he is carrying 20 ENC worth of equipment, he would enter combat with 6 FP. On the 7th round, he would be at -1 FP and therefore suffer -1 to all his rolls.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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Again, remembering RQ3, I believe total ENC was subtracted from Fatigue. So a character with a STR & CON of 13, would have 26 FP. If he is carrying 20 ENC worth of equipment, he would enter combat with 6 FP. On the 7th round, he would be at -1 FP and therefore suffer -1 to all his rolls.

In RQ3, each point of ENC also subtracts 1% from Dodge, Jump and Spell Casting, and each point of ENC subtracts 5% from Swim.

This can lead to the rather horrid idea of characters who rely on dodge fighting naked (if you include ENC for clothes). My group actually had a character who only wore a robe and would slip that off is she got into combat. The player tried to argue that male opponents should recieve a penalty when in melee with his attractive naked female character!

I introduced a RQ3 houserule whereby the first (STR+CON)/4 Enc was free and did not imact on skills or spellcasting (except for swimming).

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I couldn't figure out the Encumbrance/Fatigue/Burden rules in the BRP book either.

My house rules are these:

Encumbrance Capacity = SIZ x (STR + 10) / 20 (x14 lbs, i.e. SIZ pts). Over half Encumbers: Movement, Initiative & Dex-based skills are x1/2.

Armour Burden (Light/Moderate/Heavy) can affect physical (generally DEX-based) skills, movement rate and magic spell-casting.

Light: no skill penalty, -1 Move, +10% Magic fumble. Moderate: Skills x1/2, -2 Move, +20% Magic fumble. Heavy: Skills x 1/10, -3 Move, +30% Magic fumble. Listen/Spot skills are greatly disadvantaged in Full/Great Helm; Lock-picking, Shooting Bows and Playing Instruments are impossible in Gauntlets. Anyone not trained to the burden of armour is automatically Encumbered.

Fatigue: Exertion (e.g. combat) for a turn requires a CONx5 roll to avoid Fatigue (Movement, Initiative & all skills x1/2) or if already fatigued Exhaustion (x1/10). Recovery from fatigue requires rest for 1 hour; exhaustion 8 hours.

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I never could be bothered with tracking fatigue in RQ3. It was too fiddly for my tastes. I always liked the simple and elegant RQ2 version, and was really hoping to see it in the new BRP.

I tend to agree with you. I find the fatigue system from RQ3 to be great in concept and quite intuitive, but in practice quite cumbersome. However a couple of the players in my campaign (who also play Advanced Squad Leader - which probably explains a lot) quite like it so we use it.

On the bright side, they did convince me to write up some simple rules for single vs double edged swords and also curved vs straight ones.

Overall, I'm probably one of the rare people who are happy (in general) to see less of RQ2 in BRP. I tend to think that compared to RQ3, RQ2 is very over rated. People tend to fondly remember the good things about it but overlook the things that RQ3 does better.

I was disappointed to see that BRP seems to use MOV values more similar (and if anything worse) than RQ2's wacky ones instead the, in my opinion, better ones from RQ3.

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Overall, I'm probably one of the rare people who are happy (in general) to see less of RQ2 in BRP. I tend to think that compared to RQ3, RQ2 is very over rated. People tend to fondly remember the good things about it but overlook the things that RQ3 does better.

In this case though, it would have only taken another optional rule of about a paragraph to include the RQ2 fatigue rule for those who want something between the fiddly RQ3 version and the old SB version (which I loved) of "carry whatever makes sense for your character and be reasonable about it". :)

I too like lots of RQ3, but I stole liberally from RQ2 and have ran RQ 2.5 (or more accurately probably 2.8) for 25 years, with my own small set of houserules. Fatigue is the biggest issue that I prefer RQ2 for, but I also stole several of the ideas from the Appendix of RQ2 that didn't make their way into RQ3, and I've always been puzzled why. The other big one for me was the change from CHA to APP. I've been puzzled by that change, and the lack of change back for a long time...never understood who could have possibly thought it was a good idea.

I was disappointed to see that BRP seems to use MOV values more similar (and if anything worse) than RQ2's wacky ones instead the, in my opinion, better ones from RQ3.

I generally ignore MOV values and just use whatever makes sense. It's always worked just fine, so I've never paid much attention in any version of the game to the numbers.

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I tended to like the RQ4/AIG fatigue much better than RQ3's; it was less fiddly but still got the job done. Basically, when doing certain fatiguing activities, you periodically made a fatigue check (based on Con) and if you failed it, you accumulated a fatigue level; after about four or five of them (its' been a while) you passed out, and the interim levels applied certain general penalties to activities.

The nice thing about it was you could pretty much ignore it until it came up where it might matter, as you could pretty easily do it retroactive.

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I tended to like the RQ4/AIG fatigue much better than RQ3's...

I thought it was probably the single best feature of RQIV:AiG when I finally managed to get a copy and read it, and I'd already been using a not entirely dissimilar system (inspired by, amongst other games, Ars Magica). I think I suggested a variant be included in the new BRP during the play test. I certainly included a further revision of my house rule as an appendix in Outpost 19, tweaked to bring it more in line with the new BRP core book.

Cheers,

Nick

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I can't make heads or tails of the 'Non-Human Encumbrance' rules on page 180. Could anyone provide an example? They really don't seem to make any sense at all.

I think you are right. It doesn't make sense. That section appears to have been taken from RQ3, but to have fallen victim to a fumble.

The section (in BRP) reads

To determine the effects of ENC on any animals larger than human (SIZ 20 or more) with more than two legs, refer to the "Size Comparison Chart" on page 26. Find the SIZ equal to the creature's STR on the chart then divide the kilograms beside the number by 3. The result is the number of fatigue points the creature will lose each turn while carrying the ENC in weight.

First a couple of observations:

The chart on P26 is titled "Character SIZ Chart", not "Size Comparison Chart"

The chart only goes up to SIZ 25, which is not especially useful as an average horse (probably the most likely creature for these rules to be used for) has a STR of 28.5.

The weight ranges for SIZ values on that table overlap considerably and have a huge range (SIZ 25 goes from 121kg to 250kg). The rule doesn't specify if you are to use the lower value, the average, or the higher one.

The Comparative Sizes Table on P296 may be a better bet, especially as it is very similar to the RQ3 SIZ table, but unlike that one , it doesn't detail every SIZ value. It also has the same issue that each SIZ point covers a range. I'd suggest taking the higher value.

The real problem however is that, in my opinion, the 3rd sentence of the rule just doesn't make sense. Note that RQ3 has a different 3rd sentence:

For animals larger than human with more than two legs - any with a SIZ of over 20 - refer to the SIZ Equivalency Chart. Find the SIZ equal to the creature's STR on the chart, then divide by three the kilograms beside the number. The result represents the creature's fatigue points from which to subtract the ENC in kilograms

(Italics added by me).

As an example, I'll use a horse.

The average STR for a horse is 28.5, so I'll use 29.

Unfortunately that value does not appear on either SIZ table, but my trusty RQ3 book tells me that SIZ 29 is 308 to 335kg.

I'll take the high end of the range: 335kg.

Divide that by 3 (and rounding up) gives 112.

Thus my horse has 112 Fatigue Points.

Does this help?

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A couple more things (my previous post was getting too long).

A very minor difference between the RQ3 and BRP rules is that in RQ3 it kicks in starting at SIZ 21 compared to SIZ 20 for BRP. Not that this will have any real effect. However in both system this rule wouldn't apply to the average "Small Donkey" in the Wiki (by MurfinMS) as it has a STR of 19.

To further complicate matters, the errata for RQ3 has a completely different take on the issue. It reads:

When determining weights carried by creatures with a SIZ of 21-30, refer to the SIZ equivalency table. Find the SIZ of the weight carried by the animal, then halve the kilograms beside the number. The result represents the actual ENC subtracted from the animal's fatigue points. If the creature has a SIZ of 31-30, divide the kilograms carried by three. If its SIZ is 41-50, divide by four, and so forth.

This seems closer to the BRP rule, and I don't think it makes game sense.

If we have an average horse carrying 13 SIZ points (perhaps a naked average human) what happens?

Fatigue points are calculated normally (STR + CON)

The average horse has 42FP (28.5 + 13) round up

SIZ 13 is 77-83kg. If I take to lower figure and divide by two, that gives ENC of 39. The horse has 3FP.

If we add any equipment, including clothing and armour it is going to get worse.

The average horse being ridden by an average human will probably start off being around 0FP.

You might find that resonable, or perhaps not.

Of course it can be argued that the rule is intended for pack animals, not for ridden ones, but though I'm not a horsey person, I don't think that 77kg is a lot to carry for a horse - or is it?

Note that one other effect of the errata, and probably a good one, is that bigger creatures can carry proportionally more.

Thus in my campaign the domesticated behemoths which the swamp frog people build their homes on can carry heaps!

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I thought it was probably the single best feature of RQIV:AiG when I finally managed to get a copy and read it, and I'd already been using a not entirely dissimilar system (inspired by, amongst other games, Ars Magica). I think I suggested a variant be included in the new BRP during the play test. I certainly included a further revision of my house rule as an appendix in Outpost 19, tweaked to bring it more in line with the new BRP core book.

Cheers,

Nick

Care to elaborate on what you felt the need to change? I'll probably use something like it if I ever get around to using the new BRP for something, and there's no need to completely reinvent the wheel...

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Care to elaborate on what you felt the need to change? I'll probably use something like it if I ever get around to using the new BRP for something, and there's no need to completely reinvent the wheel...

Err - I couldn't remember exactly how the RQIV:AiG system worked when I was reworking my old "Ars Magica" influenced rules, but when I looked at them for writing up Outpost 19 I realised I'd based them on RQII (where ENC was, basically, limited to STR x 1.5), rather than BRP. In the new BRP Jason points out that a character has a 50% chance to lift 6 x STR in Enc (since ENC/6 = SIZ), so I pegged set STR x 3 as the notional "maximum load" (whilst acknowledging that one could bench press potentially much greater weights) and defined six load levels (from unloaded to maximum load). I defined seven levels of fatigue levels in BRP terms, with penalties based on Circumstantial Action Modifiers (page 177), from fresh to unconscious.

I then just use a Stamina roll (penalised by current fatigue level penalties, if any) to avoid "dropping" another fatigue level after appropriate exertion; I also emphasised the idea of imposing a "maximum" fatigue level to represent harsh conditions etc.

In the end, (albeit I'd have to re-read AiG to be sure) I simplified the system a bit but mostly I tweaked the numbers so the system I was writing would work with the numbers in the BRP book - although I will confess that I haven't actually ever gone through them with a fine toothed comb to be sure they are robust...

Cheers,

Nick

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Err - I couldn't remember exactly how the RQIV:AiG system worked when I was reworking my old "Ars Magica" influenced rules, but when I looked at them for writing up Outpost 19 I realised I'd based them on RQII (where ENC was, basically, limited to STR x 1.5), rather than BRP. In the new BRP Jason points out that a character has a 50% chance to lift 6 x STR in Enc (since ENC/6 = SIZ), so I pegged set STR x 3 as the notional "maximum load" (whilst acknowledging that one could bench press potentially much greater weights) and defined six load levels (from unloaded to maximum load). I defined seven levels of fatigue levels in BRP terms, with penalties based on Circumstantial Action Modifiers (page 177), from fresh to unconscious.

I then just use a Stamina roll (penalised by current fatigue level penalties, if any) to avoid "dropping" another fatigue level after appropriate exertion; I also emphasised the idea of imposing a "maximum" fatigue level to represent harsh conditions etc.

In the end, (albeit I'd have to re-read AiG to be sure) I simplified the system a bit but mostly I tweaked the numbers so the system I was writing would work with the numbers in the BRP book - although I will confess that I haven't actually ever gone through them with a fine toothed comb to be sure they are robust...

Cheers,

Nick

This type of system seems to be a common evolution. I've played with something similar, but ended up with 6 levels. IIRC, my starting points were RQ:AIG and LotR.

Each level is one multiple of CON less than the one before, less ENC. Rolls are only made at the end of strenuous activity, or when called for by the GM. Thus starting off at CON x5 - Enc, then CON x4 - ENC, etc. Penalties (from second level on) start at 5% and double each level.

Has Charlie mentioned when he expects a dead tree version of Outpost 19 yet?

SDLeary

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