Just a reminder there is no OGL for BRP, RQ, or CoC

[Jeff]

Legend is its own thing and not under license from Chaosium or Moon Design Publications. Mongoose was perfectly entitled to take their work, remove from it those elements that were derived from RuneQuest or Glorantha and give it its own name, and then do with it as they see fit. Legend is not RuneQuest or BRP or Call of Cthulhu, and nor does it purport to be.

If Mongoose wants to do a OGL of their original work, that is not our issue or concern. My post is only to remind folk that the MRQ OGL has long since expired and not to rely on it. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Jeff

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Legend is its own thing and not under license from Chaosium or Moon Design Publications. Mongoose was perfectly entitled to take their work, remove from it those elements that were derived from RuneQuest or Glorantha and give it its own name, and then do with it as they see fit. Legend is not RuneQuest or BRP or Call of Cthulhu, and nor does it purport to be.

If Mongoose wants to do a OGL of their original work, that is not our issue or concern. My post is only to remind folk that the MRQ OGL has long since expired and not to rely on it. 

I shouldn't need to add that if you want to use Legend for a project, you need to make sure that your project does not otherwise violate someone else's IP. But given the amount of wilful ignorance out there nowadays, I think it is probably prudent to remind folk of that as well.

[Carew]

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Legend is its own thing and not under license from Chaosium or Moon Design Publications. Mongoose was perfectly entitled to take their work, remove from it those elements that were derived from RuneQuest or Glorantha and give it its own name, and then do with it as they see fit. Legend is not RuneQuest or BRP or Call of Cthulhu, and nor does it purport to be.

If Mongoose wants to do a OGL of their original work, that is not our issue or concern. My post is only to remind folk that the MRQ OGL has long since expired and not to rely on it. 

Thank you! This is the clarification I was looking for. It is appreciated.

[Joker]

Thank you very much, that clear statement is really appreciated! Outside of this forum you could hear the strangest things on all this OGL stuff and I am glade to have that kind of answer!

[Robert]

On 6/30/2019 at 7:43 AM, Jeff said:

Legend is its own thing and not under license from Chaosium or Moon Design Publications. Mongoose was perfectly entitled to take their work, remove from it those elements that were derived from RuneQuest or Glorantha and give it its own name, and then do with it as they see fit. Legend is not RuneQuest or BRP or Call of Cthulhu, and nor does it purport to be.

If Mongoose wants to do a OGL of their original work, that is not our issue or concern. My post is only to remind folk that the MRQ OGL has long since expired and not to rely on it. 

The Open Game License doesn't expire on content that has been released under its terms.

Per section 4

Quote

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

In addition the text Legend and all Legend of ... books have been declared as open content by Mongoose. The book sans art is the SRD for legends.

What people forget is that Mongoose did not have a license to the BRP system only the right to use the trademark Runequesr and the Glorantha IP. So they had to create an original but related RPG. Just as many companies back in the 70s and 80s created RPGs that had elements of D&D in their rules. Whether it was the 3d6 attributes like Runequest or class and level like Palladium Fantasy.

The OGL also forbids the use of trademarks or citing compatibility with trademark in Section 7

Quote

7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.

In addition Mongoose withdrew the compatibility license for their past SRD. The only one still active is the one for Legends. This is the source of the confusion over what Mongoose terminated.

Because of this section, because of much of an appeal of an RPG is the setting which is not open content many of the projects I see here in this thread can't done with the open content of Legends.

Not because the license on the open content expired or that Mongoose lost the right to use the Runequest trademark or the use of the Glorantha IP. Chaosium knows this which why they haven't issued DMCA take downs to the various sites with material based the Legends open content or open content based the old Mongoose SRDs like Openquest.

Nobody has to take my word for it just buy a copy of Legend and read everything for yourself. All the licensing is at the end of the book. But also mean that the moderator and Chaosium is correct in that you can't just write something for one of their RapGs or settings. While Cthulhu is public domain the trademarks are still in force. Hamstringing any projects without the advice of attorney. But for original ideas and setting the material that Mongoose released is still there and available for use.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Robert

[umlauthuth]

On 6/30/2019 at 4:06 AM, Newt said:

On the matter of the OpenQuest's OGL, I'll make a proper statement when its all worked out but it will be getting a new clear OGL soon (and before I release OQ3 which is currently looking like an end of summer Kickstarter). If you are currently using OQ's SRD, and are properly crediting me in Section 15 as you should be by the terms of the OGL itself, there should be no need to retrospectively apply this license (i.e. existing books that use the OQ SRD). In short don't worry (as I said I'll make a clearer statement once the new OGL is sorted). 

 

 

Does OQ Basic and OpenQuest use any parts of the Mongoose Runequest OGC? It's mentioned in the OGL text in the current versions. 

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, Robert said:

The Open Game License doesn't expire on content that has been released under its terms.

Per section 4

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

Actually it does. Mongoose may have said its license was perpetual, but it's license with Issaries was not perpetual. Mongoose did not have the ability to issue a perpetual license to Third Parties, only a license with a duration equal to its own right to use the IP. So Section 4 was a bit of an exaggeration. 

Think of this like subletting a property you are renting on a monthly basis from another party. You might tell your subletter that their lease is perpetual, but if your landlord ends your lease, both you and your subletter are out.

[Bifford]

I just want to say to Chaosium a little thank you for the awesomeness that is CoC and also for allowing Mongoose to release the setting-free system that is Legend. These are two of my favourite systems to GM or play in. 

Thank you.

Sam / Bifford

[Agentorange]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 11:34 AM, MOB said:

We talk to all licensees at the conceptual stage to ensure projects don't overlap or compete with stuff being done or planned by other licensees, or by Chaosium itself. This is pretty standard practice everywhere, and is to everyone's benefit and protection. Usually this is just a brief discussion with the relevant line editor.

 

 

 

Now, I have no plans to publish anything in any system so I have no dog in this fight. But.....if we all waited around for Chaosium  to publish the things they say they're going to publish we'd all die of old age. Remind me again how long it took the Dorastor supplement to be published after it's first mention ?  :-)

Edited July 1, 2019 by Agentorange
got it wrong

[g33k]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually it does. Mongoose may have said its license was perpetual, but it's license with Issaries was not perpetual. Mongoose did not have the ability to issue a perpetual license to Third Parties, only a license with a duration equal to its own right to use the IP. So Section 4 was a bit of an exaggeration. 

Think of this like subletting a property you are renting on a monthly basis from another party. You might tell your subletter that their lease is perpetual, but if your landlord ends your lease, both you and your subletter are out.

I am actually not entirely clear with the post you're citing -- @Robert has mixed an explicit quotation with differently-font'ed text, some of which are quotations (e.g. from the text of the OGL) but others not -- such that I'm uncertain exactly what he means.

My initial reading was that he was claiming that all of Mongoose's efforts at OGL were equally valid, but when I went back to re-read it seemed like he was separating the older MRQ OGL and noting that MRQ has others' IP embedded which isn't OGL'able.

Is he saying that "MRQ" doesn't have a valid OGL attached?  Is he saying that the (c)'ed IP is "severable" and not OGL'ed, but the remainder of MRQ has a valid OGL... and it's up to the end-user to determine OGL-status of any given bit of text?  Or ... ?

 

BTW, Jeff -- I like your sublet analogy, but given that most CC/OGL's (I haven't read this one) even allow commercial re-sale of derived products, I like to go with the car-rental analogy:  If I go rent a car, I cannot just sell it to another party when the rental is over.  It isn't MINE.  I can't pass it along.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

31 minutes ago, Bifford said:

I just want to say to Chaosium a little thank you for the awesomeness that is CoC and also for allowing Mongoose to release the setting-free system that is Legend. These are two of my favourite systems to GM or play in. 

 

I realize I will sound a little naive and probably wrong and as all polly-anniish as it sounds that is how I feel. I hope it's true, it does seem that Chaosium has always been a little bit different in working and playing nicely in the schoolyard of RPG gaming.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Actually it does. Mongoose may have said its license was perpetual, but it's license with Issaries was not perpetual. Mongoose did not have the ability to issue a perpetual license to Third Parties, only a license with a duration equal to its own right to use the IP. So Section 4 was a bit of an exaggeration. 

Think of this like subletting a property you are renting on a monthly basis from another party. You might tell your subletter that their lease is perpetual, but if your landlord ends your lease, both you and your subletter are out.

I addressed this point, in case it wasn't clear. 

Mongoose didn't license the rules from Issaries. The rules are Mongoose own original creation. Which is why they could release them as Legends. The same with Runequest 6th edition rebranded as Mythras. They are certainly related as they share many mechanics but Legends, Mythras, and Basic Roleplaying are not the same RPG and only one of them was created by Chaosium. And none of them were owned by Greg Stafford while he was publishing as Issaries.

And to be I am aware that Glorantha, Call of Cthulu were never open content. Just I am aware that Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms where never released as open content by Wizards in any of their SRDs. I am also a Judges Guild licensee using their Wilderlands material in conjunction with the Swords & Wizardry rules. The material I create and anything derived from them are covered by the license the rules however are not as they are either adapted from Swords & Wizardry or my own original creation.

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Robert

[Robert]

21 minutes ago, g33k said:

I am actually not entirely clear with the post you're citing -- @Robert has mixed an explicit quotation with differently-font'ed text, some of which are quotations (e.g. from the text of the OGL) but others not -- such that I'm uncertain exactly what he means.

Sorry about that, I fixed it up. 

Quote

 

My initial reading was that he was claiming that all of Mongoose's efforts at OGL were equally valid, but when I went back to re-read it seemed like he was separating the older MRQ OGL and noting that MRQ has others' IP embedded which isn't OGL'able.

Is he saying that "MRQ" doesn't have a valid OGL attached?  Is he saying that the (c)'ed IP is "severable" and not OGL'ed, but the remainder of MRQ has a valid OGL... and it's up to the end-user to determine OGL-status of any given bit of text?  Or ... ?

 

My point is that the rules are Mongoose's own original creations. The two system reference documents, and the Legends RPG are the rules scrubbed of anything that Mongoose licensed from Issaries. And while I didn't say this clearly Issaries did not license the rules to Mongoose.

Again I apologize for the confusion.

[MOB]

3 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Now, I have no plans to publish anything in any system so I have no dog in this fight. But.....if we all waited around for Chaosium  to publish the things they say they're going to publish we'd all die of old age. Remind me again how long it took the Dorastor supplement to be published after it's first mention ?  🙂

That was a project that came out 26 years ago, under completely different management, editorial, and production processes (and completely different people too).

My comment about how we work with licensees relates to current practice. We are by no means perfect, but we are striving to have processes that ensure our products (and those of our licensees) are announced and then later released in a timely fashion.

Edited July 1, 2019 by MOB

[g33k]

20 minutes ago, MOB said:

That was a project that came out 26 years ago, under completely different management, editorial, and production processes (and completely different people too).

My comment about how we work with licensees relates to current practice. We are by no means perfect, but we are striving to have processes that ensure our products (and those of our licensees) are announced and then later released in a timely fashion.

I think there were a LOT of optimistic RPG product-announcements back in the late 70's & early 80's.

Hopefully, we all treat such references as gentle teasing these days; it's definitely not kosher to task nuChaosium with stuff done (as MOB says, by "...completely different management, editorial, and production processes (and completely different people too)."

 

That said, I confess to a certain... shall we say poignant longing? ... for some otherworld heroquesting/runequesting rules for Runequest.

Help my aging memory, again... how long since Chaosium originally announced such rules...?    😉

And Jeff is being quite the tease these days... 

 

But seriously:  props to the nuChaosium team.  Keep on being awesome, folks!

 

[Bill the barbarian]

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

Help my aging memory, again... how long since Chaosium originally announced such rules...?    😉

 

Weeell shonnny, i think it was Shaturday... <wheeze> just about tea time... 1922 if I recall, though I can't recall if I took my meds or not?l.

[Numtini]

OGLs do not expire with the end of a contract. They are perpetual. I believe the correct formulation you're looking for here is that Mongoose did not have the rights release a perpetual OGL under their license from Issaries, therefore any OGL release of licensed material in their publications are void under Section 5 of the OGL, not to mention basic bedrock legal principles. It didn't expire. It never existed because Mongoose didn't have rights to create it.

 

[Robert]

11 minutes ago, Numtini said:

OGLs do not expire with the end of a contract. They are perpetual. I believe the correct formulation you're looking for here is that Mongoose did not have the rights release a perpetual OGL under their license from Issaries, therefore any OGL release of licensed material in their publications are void under Section 5 of the OGL, not to mention basic bedrock legal principles. It didn't expire. It never existed because Mongoose didn't have rights to create it.

 

That accurate if that was the case however Mongoose never licensed a set of Runequest or Basic Roleplaying rules from Greg Stafford while he was publishing as Issaries. They wrote their own from scratch.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Robert

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

That accurate if that was the case however Mongoose never licensed a set of Runequest or Basic Roleplaying rules from Greg Stafford while he was publishing as Issaries. They wrote their own from scratch.

Maybe I am just totally misunderstanding you, but Mongoose RuneQuest was written by Mongoose under license from Issaries. When the license was terminated, Issaries authorised what became Legend under the condition that many elements were removed. Whether Mongoose could have published Legend at all without that past history is doubtful.

[Jeff]

At this point, I believe this thread has said what it needs to. People are welcome to disagree with my analysis of contract law (although I strongly doubt a US judge would), but please do it elsewhere.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Jeff

[MOB]

On 7/2/2019 at 3:19 PM, Jeff said:

At this point, I believe this thread has said what it needs to. People are welcome to disagree with my analysis of contract law (although I strongly doubt a US judge would), but please do it elsewhere.

To summarise (using Jeff's responses):

Q: Does Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Magic World, the Basic Roleplaying system, Pendragon, or 7th Sea come under the provisions of an Open Game License (OGL)?

A: No.

Q: Is there a System Reference Document (SRD) for Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Magic World, the Basic Roleplaying system, Pendragon, or 7th Sea?

A: No. [Update: in March 2020 Chaosium released the official SRD for the BRP rules engine.]

Q: Can I rely on the Mongoose RQ SRD to publish material?

A: No. Mongoose’s license for RuneQuest was terminated in April 2011. At that point, Mongoose lost all rights to continue using the RuneQuest trademark, or to create and publish material derivative from the previous copywritten material, or to issue any sublicenses based on that agreement. Since Mongoose no longer had any rights to RuneQuest, it has no ability to issue a third-party license to that material (which is all an OGL is). 

For more information, see https://www.chaosium.com/fan-use-and-licensing-q-a

Q: Isn't an OGL perpetual?

Mongoose may have said its license was perpetual, but its license with Issaries was not perpetual. Mongoose did not have the ability to issue a perpetual license to Third Parties, only a license with a duration equal to its own right to use the IP.  

(Think of this like subletting a property you are renting on a monthly basis from another party. You might tell your subletter that their lease is perpetual, but if your landlord ends your lease, both you and your subletter are out.)

Q: What about Mongoose's Legend?

A: Legend is its own thing and not under license from Chaosium or Moon Design Publications. Mongoose was perfectly entitled to take their work, remove from it those elements that were derived from RuneQuest or Glorantha and give it its own name, and then do with it as they see fit. Legend is not RuneQuest or BRP or Call of Cthulhu, and nor does it purport to be.

If Mongoose wants to do a OGL of their original work, that is not Chaosium's issue or concern.  

[wearing mod hat] we're closing the thread so that for anyone's future reference our summary is easy to find here at the end. If you would like to discuss this matter further on BRP Central, you are most welcome to start a new thread.

Edited March 28, 2020 by MOB

[Jeff]

An update regarding OpenCthulhu: We’ve reviewed the newest version of OpenCthulhu and it remains as problematic as before. It continues to be an egregious violation of our intellectual property and will vigorously respond to any attempts to disseminate it on websites or elsewhere. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Jeff

[MOB]

We have now released the Basic Roleplaying System Reference Document (SRD) and Open Game License - more details at the link: