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TheophilusCarter

Conceal skill - applications

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Hey, yo.

I dig Mythras' approach to skills, but I'm also wondering about the conceal skill.  I get what it's for in general, but it seems awfully specialized to devote a whole skill to.  On the other hand, maybe it has far more applications than I'm thinking of.  So, whaddya got?  I'll start with one:

Hiding a car off-road by covering it with branches ...

Your turn!

 

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Most sorts of "camouflage," whether that's hiding a car, a tank, an ICBM silo, a cowering scientist or sage ... ?

This is a staple skill for smugglers, and even honest merchants who need to pass avaricious "customs" agents.

 

I have personally used it to prep surprises for my wife; and also to keep my youngest's bag of hallowe'en candy, after she realized she didn't have the self-control not to get sicker than she was willing to get, but DID have the self-control to hand it over that first time (that one turned into a fun game, where I'd pull it from a new hiding-place every night after dinner).

 

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hiding cavalry horses ready for an ambush

augment to your troll's stealth roll

ditching the fuzz in an airport parking lot.

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Concealing the last of the toilet paper from the rest of the party in a post-apocalyptic setting. Sheesh - how is this not an important enough skill to dedicate points to !  🙈 🙉 🙊

Edited by kronovan
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Camouflaging oneself with foliage, mud. etc. to gain a bonus to Stealth rolls in the wilderness. Think Arnie in Predator. or any number of military movies or real-life events.

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I can see conceptually (and historically) why Conceal was included as a Standard skill, but I sympathize with TheophilusCarter.  I think I have never used Conceal in actual play.  Some of the examples above seem blurred with use of the Stealth skill, to me.  Also, for characters in an action scene, I think the concept of Cover goes a long way toward precluding Conceal checks.

To sharpen the discussion, let me ask:  Do you see Stealth as involving movement, whereas Conceal is for an immobile object (or possibly character)?  I don't have RAW in front of me, but it is probably worthwhile to check the exact verbiage in the entries for these skills, with this in mind.

In RQ3, we had separate Hide and Sneak skills, which frankly were almost always resolved with a single roll when a character was trying to be stealthy (and if you failed either one, you were sunk).  Thus sweeping these up into a single Stealth skill resonated with me when I first read RQ6/Mythras.  Meanwhile, in RQ3 Conceal was used specifically when a character tried to hide a large object that was not himself.  (For quite small objects, you used Sleight.)  I think those older ideas are worth revisiting in this discussion.

 

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Conceal is used to disguise troops in Ships and Shield Walls. In my current game, i would use stealth for the players, but require them to use Conceal for their horses.

Quote

Do you see Stealth as involving movement, whereas Conceal is for an immobile object (or possibly character)? 

Conceal is for objects larger than the character himself. There is no indication of mobility, and even points to a chariot. 

I can see your points on the Standard skill and Cover. I think the troop example is a good counter to that, though it itself is sort of the exception.

I think a good question is why is sleight a Professional skill and Conceal is not? Learning to camouflage isn't necessarily an everyman's skill. If they are both professional skills, I could see how they might be separate. I can't see merging them since I think palming a coin is a different skill than camouflaging vehicles or troops.

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4 hours ago, Raleel said:

Conceal is for objects larger than the character himself.

Is that right?  It thought the core book gave an example of hiding a scroll in a library or some such thing.

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14 minutes ago, TheophilusCarter said:

Is that right?  It thought the core book gave an example of hiding a scroll in a library or some such thing.

from Mythras Imperative (and the core book)

Quote

Conceal (DEX+POW)

Conceal is the counterpoint to Stealth, being the concealment of large objects rather than the character themselves.

It ALSO has an example of hiding a scroll in a library. My assumption is that they count if it is unrolled :) 

There is an implication that

  • conceal is hide an thing somewhere not on person
  • Sleight covers hiding objects on your person
  • Stealth covers hiding your person.
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On 7/22/2019 at 2:35 PM, Raleel said:

from Mythras Imperative (and the core book)

It ALSO has an example of hiding a scroll in a library. My assumption is that they count if it is unrolled :) 

There is an implication that

  • conceal is hide an thing somewhere not on person
  • Sleight covers hiding objects on your person
  • Stealth covers hiding your person.

I'm going to caveat myself and say that sleight has an active component (it implies you are actively performing it against someone searching), and sleight has a size restriction (no bigger than your hand, and it points out that conceal is used for these bigger objects).

So, i would say you use Conceal to hide a larger pistol on your person and leave it there, but for a holdout, it might be possible with the smallest ones, like the one here

image.png.3b9bf5798d432f0d5c76d1b42f4526c2.png 

I think the one below is probably conceal, because it's just a bit big.

image.png.38cf41b84c7986e1e1f321886f922771.png

 

not a lot of difference there. I would probably abstract it out to a Trait (Palm sized) which would allow it to be hidden with Sleight (probably coupled with a low damage die and/or limited ammo, or other limitations for other objects), otherwise it's Conceal. If I had a game where characters over SIZ 20 were present, I'd probably allow regular pistols to gain Palm-sized.

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I think I'd allow Sleight for somewhat larger objects.

For example... you walk past an object, taking it with you unseen as you pass.  This seems to me a classic Sleight.  If you can conceal it in a hand, all well and good... but what if you can hide it behind the profile of your body, equally unnoticed?  I still find this to be a Sleight.

I'll need to go back to the rulebooks (and I only have RQ6, so if there's revision in Mythras I'll miss it)...  but intuitively to me, the key element of a Sleight is that it's actively done while under observation.  You may be taking the object, hiding it upon your person.  You may be moving it, from out in the open to a more concealed place, etc.  But it's DOING the thing, while not being recognized as doing anything of note.

 

Edited by g33k
typo
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Good discussion.  I think, in the interest of making a too-little-used skill more obviously useful (in my game), I would favor a broad set of situations for Conceal.  So, I would use Conceal for e.g. hiding a weapon on my person under my clothes, or hiding a scroll in a library, or hiding a car in the woods, or hiding a squad of troops in the field. 

I would use Sleight for acts involving specifically the hands and small objects and motion--the taking or moving of an item, or hiding it or using one's hand--, but not for any subsequent stashing of the same item (that would be Conceal).  Since Sleight is a Professional skill but Conceal isn't, I guess I would allow substitution of Conceal at some level of penalty.

I would use Stealth specifically for hiding myself from detection, possibly involving but not requiring movement.

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