Hsunchen magic in RQG

[Joerg]

In the Kitori thread, I voiced my disagreement about how the Hsunchen magic is treated in RQG, but I think this warrants a thread of its own rather than cluttering the Kitori discussion.

According to the Bestiary, a complete wolf run (outside of the mandatory, chaotic change on Wildday) for exactly one hour consumes eight rune points. Even if all of these can be regained each Wildday, that is an awful lot of Telmori (or Rathori, Damali etc.) completely unable to take their animal shape at all.The partial transformation rule makes sense for the Basmoli, since they worship a dead god (spirit) and have a harder time to be like their ancestor. There are Hsunchen who probably don't make much use of the full transition, like the stag-riding Pralori.

I would expect quite a lot of the smaller beast-totem Hsunchen like the Damali or the porcupine ones to rely on their beast shape as a way to escape dangerous situations. Doing so with a partial change might apply in some cases, but doesn‘t really capture their two-shaped nature.

 

How could this be done differently, and preferably without breaking the rules in the Bestiary?

One way might be an additional animist method – an allied (ancestral) spirit or a charm able to provide the toggling effect. Possibly limited to a magically attuned environment? The average Pujaleg visiting a Fonritian city shouldn’t be able to take off as a bat on a moment’s whim at low cost, unless it is one of the cities under their control in Laskal.

 

I would like to see other suggestions or work-arounds.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Joerg

[metcalph]

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would expect quite a lot of the smaller beast-totem Hsunchen like the Damali or the porcupine ones to rely on their beast shape as a way to escape dangerous situations. Doing so with a partial change might apply in some cases, but doesn‘t really capture their two-shaped nature.

I don't think the Hsunchen in general have two-shaped natures - they think of themselves as animals in the form of men and it is difficult to change.  That is why the Telmori accepted Nysalor's gift.  Expressing their Beast Shape is not something Hsunchen can easily do in times of danger but something that is only attained through years of spiritual practice.

The Hsunchen emulate their totems but it is rare for them to manifest them - that is what their shamans and best fighters do.

 

[David Scott]

Considering the Basmoli only have access to five Rune spells and their shaman an extra one, I don't see it as an issue. Adventurers are likely to get at least a point of POW a year, so by the age of 30-35 will be able to transform completely. Depending on how you want to model POW gains for NPC (point every 2, 3, or 5 years etc), most elders can transform completely. This means that their death scene will be them turning into a wolf and their spirit leaving their body as such.

Practically, it's the transform limb and head spells that are the most useful. Transform limb will let you escape if swift or need to swim or fly. Transform head is useful if you are a water creature and need to dive.

[gochie]

One thing  I think might help is the use of Extension only on Transform Self to lock in the Wolf form longterm... Otherwise, I think it's fine. They should have full transformation as an eventual goal, and now that you start with 3 free Rune points and can potentially increase each season, it is achievable quite easily.

[Joerg]

38 minutes ago, gochie said:

One thing  I think might help is the use of Extension only on Transform Self to lock in the Wolf form longterm... Otherwise, I think it's fine. They should have full transformation as an eventual goal, and now that you start with 3 free Rune points and can potentially increase each season, it is achievable quite easily.

That still leaves the problem of returning to the human shape from the locked beast shape.

[gochie]

Just now, Joerg said:

That still leaves the problem of returning to the human shape from the locked beast shape.

True, but is that really a problem? I'm sure the Telmori would want to stay in wolf form forever if given the chance.

[albinoboo]

6 minutes ago, gochie said:

True, but is that really a problem? I'm sure the Telmori would want to stay in wolf form forever if given the chance.

HonEel cursed the Telmori of Sylila to be wolves. I wouldn't be too sure about the Telmori wanting to be wolves.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, gochie said:

True, but is that really a problem? I'm sure the Telmori would want to stay in wolf form forever if given the chance.

That won't keep cursed Telmori to turn into the slavering hybrid beast-man thing on Wilddays.

And being Hsunchen doesn't mean to turn into a beast and stay in that shape, it means being able to take either shape.

300,000 Uncolings in Tastolar (Fronela) on an area of roughly 1000-1500 hexes means 300 (down to 200) of them on each hex. Compare that to 130k Balazarings (Votanki and citadel dwellers) on an area about the same size, with much more clement climate than tundra. IMO the Uncolings can only manage this population density by turning into their totem beasts for much of the time. For comparison, agricultural Sartar has 500 inhabitants per hex on average.

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Does possession by an animal spirit transform your body into that animal? Some form of cooperative possession might accomplish reasonably frequent and co,trollable transformations with rune spells for emergency or more powerful transformations. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by HreshtIronBorne

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Does possession by an animal spirit transform your body into that animal?

No.  Some spirits could effect a body transformation but it's not a normal attribute of animal spirits in general.

 

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, gochie said:

One thing  I think might help is the use of Extension only on Transform Self to lock in the Wolf form longterm...

The Telmori have only access to a single common spell Rune spell which is sanctify. They don't have access to Extension (Bestiary page 86).

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

300,000 Uncolings in Tastolar (Fronela) on an area of roughly 1000-1500 hexes means 300 (down to 200) of them on each hex. Compare that to 130k Balazarings (Votanki and citadel dwellers) on an area about the same size, with much more clement climate than tundra. IMO the Uncolings can only manage this population density by turning into their totem beasts for much of the time. For comparison, agricultural Sartar has 500 inhabitants per hex on average.

1250 hexes (mean of your figure) x 55 sq km (a 8km hex has an area of 55.426 sq km. https://rechneronline.de/pi/hexagon.php) is 68750 sq km. 300000 Uncolings into 68750 sq km gives a population density of 4.36 per sq km. The population density of the Sami people (indigenous reindeer herders in northern Europe) is 5 per sq km. Although the Guide says they live in a vast Tundra region, I suspect that as in our world most of it is cold coniferous forest becoming tundra near the Glacier. Looking at the AAA you can see the forests (Winterwood, Deerwood, etc.).

[Tindalos]

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

No.  Some spirits could effect a body transformation but it's not a normal attribute of animal spirits in general.

 

It's not for all of them, but it's an ability they do often have. (RQ:G 168)

[g33k]

I note there's a LOT of distinct instances of shapeshifting in Glorantha, and while a single mechanic would be easiest, their mythic differences IMHO call for some differing mechanics.

I share @Jeorg's dislike of the current hsunchen rules with such a huge cost in RP and rune magic.

I don't feel confident I have a solution ready to offer online, or playtest, but I note this thread with some interest!

 

[Akhôrahil]

This is one of the overall issues with RQ - the spells are so bad at supporting certain kinds of mythic resonances. An Odaylan in HeroWars has a lovely set of abilities, capped off with the amazing "Sleep Back To Life". An RQ Odayalan can turn into a bear for 15 minutes to beat people up (assuming a hefty investment in Rune Points).

Edited July 7, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Byll]

But at least the Odaylan has access to extension; fortunately my hypothetical Telmori Guardsman Sartarite found Odayla at the Siege of Nochet... https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/runequest-playing-in-glorantha-creating-characters.838346/page-6#post-22350034

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/5/2019 at 12:33 PM, David Scott said:

The population density of the Sami people (indigenous reindeer herders in northern Europe) is 5 per sq km. Although the Guide says they live in a vast Tundra region, I suspect that as in our world most of it is cold coniferous forest becoming tundra near the Glacier. Looking at the AAA you can see the forests (Winterwood, Deerwood, etc.).

Those are modern figures, though? With access to cars, snow scooters, modern weaponry and telecoms, and with most of them not even herding reindeer but working at the local supermarket or something?

I doubt this would match even medieval figures, let alone Neolithic.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Those are modern figures, though? With access to cars, snow scooters, modern weaponry and telecoms, and with most of them not even herding reindeer but working at the local supermarket or something?

I doubt this would match even medieval figures, let alone Neolithic.

Yes.  Only 10% of the current population are involved in reindeer herding. However they give a good (IMO) ballpark number to work with.

If you want to read more have a look at this:

Quantifying Sami Settlement and Movement Patterns in Northern Sweden 1700 – 1900

http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic63-2-141.pdf

i used to have a chart that gave the “normal” ranges of population densities for different cultures in different biomes (year’s ago - no idea were it went, from a book of all things). However that paper gives these ranges:

Quote

population densities of less than 0.04 persons per km2 are characteristic of hunter-gatherer societies, while densities up to five persons per km2 are characteristic of low-technology societies that rely on hunting, fishing, and gathering supplemented by farming or herding.

It does say that historically they had low densities of 0.06, however the Uncolings are the most socially sophisticated of the Hsunchen cultures. Each spring they meet at Porent in a huge gathering, and perform ceremonies that require thousands of participants. They also have trading posts, so I suspect some semipermanent or even permanent population in places.

It’s never going to be perfect using real world cultures and data for a magical world, but it fits well enough for me. 

[Joerg]

 

On 7/5/2019 at 12:33 PM, David Scott said:

1250 hexes (mean of your figure) x 55 sq km (a 8km hex has an area of 55.426 sq km. https://rechneronline.de/pi/hexagon.php) is 68750 sq km. 300000 Uncolings into 68750 sq km gives a population density of 4.36 per sq km. The population density of the Sami people (indigenous reindeer herders in northern Europe) is 5 per sq km. Although the Guide says they live in a vast Tundra region, I suspect that as in our world most of it is cold coniferous forest becoming tundra near the Glacier. Looking at the AAA you can see the forests (Winterwood, Deerwood, etc.).

Winterwood isn't a good place for reindeer with its immense range of spruce. The Deerwood might be if it is the typical Arctic dwarfed birch and pine savannah, though I wonder what beasts would be there for hunting other than reindeer and perhaps moose. We know that there are (or used to be) musk ox, mammoths, mastodons and woolly rhinos in the greater region, but hunting those is a quite different challenge from hunting reindeer, and they come with their own Hsunchen partners (over in Rathorela or northern Loskalm). That close to the glacier I wouldn't expect the full range of the Cro-Magnon prey depicted in the caves of southern France, such as wild horses or large wild cattle or bison.

 

Having lived in a mainly Sami-descended community in Norway, I did some research about the region's history. It turned out that the coastal Sami were sedentary with only seasonal raindeer hunting, using something like permanent fence traps to drive off parts of the annually migrating herds into captivity or butchering (with the climate acting as a natural ice house for storing the meat), living off the extreme bounty of the winter fishing and trading that to the Norse folk for grain and metal. Possibly doing so since the Nordic Bronze Age, as the local rock carvings (Helleristninger) show similarities with the nordic boat builders whose rock carvings show boats resembling the Hjortspring boat. This rich source of additional protein also outside of the main fishing season creates a population base higher than that available to the Uncolings who have at best riverine fishing with a salmon migration filtered past many other fishing communities.

Other populations in comparable environment would be the Samoyedic Nenets people, who have (with 80+% urban population) a population density of 0.7 per square kilometer, compared to the 4+ per square km David gave for the (modern) Sami.

Trading for metal is an option for the Hsunchen of Tastolar as there are Third Eye Blue people in the region, or at least there used to be.

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

the Uncolings are the most socially sophisticated of the Hsunchen cultures.

I would also consider the Pralori here.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would also consider the Pralori here.

If this is going to a vote, I would posit the Pujaleg as another candidate for greatest social sophistication with their temporary hold on civilized Laskal. The problem with such sophistication is that they might fall prey to the lures of civilization, as happened to the great Hsunchen-descended nations of western Genertela in the Gray and Dawn Age (Enerali, Pendali, Enjoreli), although that may not affect the entire nation, as the re-emergence of Basmoli in Ralios and Maniria suggests.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The problem with such sophistication is that they might fall prey to the lures of civilization

Are the Galanini still former horse Hsunchen, or was that changed?

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Are the Galanini still former horse Hsunchen, or was that changed?

They were always Orlanthi. Although the Westerners considered them Hsunchen, that has been described as fallacious.

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They were always Orlanthi. Although the Westerners considered them Hsunchen, that has been described as fallacious.

There have been different definitions of "Galanini", and one of them as originally horse Hsunchen never has been made obsolete, although a pure Hsunchen form probably predates Time, or was a retro-actively Hsunchenized form of the Enerali.

As far as I am concerned, Enerali, Pendali and Enjoreli are what you get when you civilize Galanini, Basmoli and Tavwari respectively. Whether this happened through interbreeding with Kachisti survivors or other theist acculturation I cannot say. I would tentatively place this after the Golden Age, throughout the sunny parts of the Storm Age and onward in the lesser Darkness prior to the destruction of the World Mountains (Spike, Flamal etc.)

[metcalph]

Just now, Joerg said:

There have been different definitions of "Galanini", and one of them as originally horse Hsunchen never has been made obsolete, although a pure Hsunchen form probably predates Time, or was a retro-actively Hsunchenized form of the Enerali.

Joerg, this really isn't the place for deep gloranthan discussion of putting forward your theories as facts.  If there's no textual evidence, leave it out on the RQ forums.