Joerg Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 Since Peter asked so charmingly friendly: 2 minutes ago, metcalph said: 4 minutes ago, Joerg said: There have been different definitions of "Galanini", and one of them as originally horse Hsunchen never has been made obsolete, although a pure Hsunchen form probably predates Time, or was a retro-actively Hsunchenized form of the Enerali. Joerg, this really isn't the place for deep gloranthan discussion of putting forward your theories as facts. If there's no textual evidence, leave it out on the RQ forums. Asking for textual evidence in the RuneQuest forum is of course not at all newbie-friendly, either. In the spirit of the original post of that thread (wait, that was mine), I'll repeat my thesis here, and I challenge you @metcalph to provide conclusive counter-evidence. But you are as welcome to post another such short notice with a friendlier formulation of "a load of bullshit" and be done with this thread. Sorry if this comes about as a bit grumpy. My pain medication after a major visit to the dentist doesn't do its job that well. 6 minutes ago, Joerg said: There have been different definitions of "Galanini", and one of them as originally horse Hsunchen never has been made obsolete, although a pure Hsunchen form probably predates Time, or was a retro-actively Hsunchenized form of the Enerali. As far as I am concerned, Enerali, Pendali and Enjoreli are what you get when you civilize Galanini, Basmoli and Tawari respectively. Whether this happened through interbreeding with Kachisti survivors or other theist acculturation I cannot say. I would tentatively place this after the Golden Age, throughout the sunny parts of the Storm Age and onward in the lesser Darkness prior to the destruction of the World Mountains (Spike, Flamal etc.) We have a list of the Old Ralian deities as they were encountered by the Theyalan missionaries. The Theyalans made identifications of several of these deities with their own Manirian versions, and with their slightly more effective magic and a lot of shared mythology that was able to patch forgotten bits of Vustri and other Enerali myths managed to Theyalanize the Dari confederation. If there ever was written evidence about the pre-Lightbringer missionary myths of the Ralians, it probably went into the Autarchy lore which was then plundered and transshipped to the later sunk lands of Old Seshnela and Jrustela, where they formed the basic canon for God Learner heroquesting in Theist cults. The Dawn Age Seshnegi had been practitioners of the same theistic cults as the Pendali, whose noble refugee tribe became known as the Basmoli of southeastern Ralios and northwestern Maniria (in the meaning of the Gloranthan region, not the portion of pre-sinking Slontos but including that). They appear to continue these semi-Hsunchen, semi-Theist practices in their warrior societies (Beast Warrior cults which are likely to make up a good part of the 100 war gods of the Kingdom of War, too), but in both cases, there appears to be a "back to the magical, Hsunchen roots" movement. The animosity between these no-longer or not-quite Hsunchen (extending to the Entruli pig totem tribes, too) and the Serpent Brotherhood Hsunchen folk that slowly succumbed to the military power of the Second Council and then the Bright Empire, leaving only the most remote areas of Ralios to the shamanistic beast peoples does appear to be a distinction. A case can be made that all the pastoralist beast riders that populated the uplands of the western Rockwoods, the Mislari, and the Nidan chain were Umathi in origin, as were the Beast Riders of Genert's Garden and Desero's Horde in Pamaltela. There seems to be a somewhat fluid transition from Tawari bull hsunchen to both Enjoreli aboriginees in Loskalm and Bisosae in Pelanda. Likewise there is a strong Storm connection for Rathor and probably Arakang making them hard to discern from the part animist, part theist Odayla of northern Saird. Fact is that a lot of the Orlanthi that were Malkionized either in the Autarchy or under the Middle Sea Empire have Hsunchen or Hsunchen-like beast totem roots. The Ancient Beast Society of Estali has pretty much the same beasts as the Hykimi creation myths in the West, the Korgatsu Hsunchen of the Shan Shan, and among the Fiwan of Pamaltela. (There may have been a fourth group for what became Slon - there used to be four Sea Turtle peoples, one for each corner of the world, but only the two eastern ones survived. The Dinosaur hsunchen of Slon don't appear to be Fiwan, but they may also be a way more recent retrograde development if Sandy's theory about Pamaltelan evolution going backwards in Earth parallels still is the meta-rule there.) IMO the entire Serpent Beast Brotherhood and the Hykimi nations they descend from sits halfway in the Theist camp, halfway in the animist Hsunchen one. The hints about the Seshnegi warrior societies and the hints in the rules (RQG, HQG) and the guide about their use of theist and animist magic and their role in the HW/HQ1 era separate worlds dogma is contradictory to the pre-WBRM writings about the west, which have pretty much Theyalan-feeling polytheism for many of these. (And yes, it doesn't take Ethilrist's writings and the Lunar Empire map from the WBRM rules to remind me that there has been a lot of world building also in that region in the meantime, resulting in the texts of the Guide which is a synthesis of all those predecessors and has been slightly re-interpreted for the current editions of RQ and HQ compared to what it came from when it was published.) The Kachasti migration resulting in the Kachisti settlement of the beast lands that would become known as the Greatwood to the Vingkotlings after the rising of the Nidan Mountains wasn't in those earliest stories. The raising of the Nidan Mountains doesn't have the same vibe for the Vadeli as do the four tribes of Old Brithos which permeate the pre-WBRM writings about the West, and which see short reprises in Revealed Mythology (next to all that "colliding Worlds" "Great deeds of the Eransanchula Zzabur who never was a son of Malkion the Founder" stuff in the Danmalastan section that IMO clearly postdates Greg's original writings about the God Learners), but without access to more than a part of those highest level rewards of the Guide kickstarter, I cannot provide an exact analysis about the development of these aspects of Glorantha. The gazetteer parts of Fronela - especially Loskalm - contain many a detail lifted from those stories that were not included in the RQ3 Genertela Box presentation of the West and its Beast-descended human neighbors, and probably mostly forgotten at the time that first edition of the world book was published. The glossaries of the three regions (west, south, east) in Revealed Mythologies let a few of those older sources glimmer through, but not quite shine. The Kachisti/Hykimi hypothesis for part of the "Orlanthi" peoples of western Genertela with Hsunchen and Pastoralist Hill Folk sharing many a totem myth remains my best interpretation of the synthesis of these different creative periods that went into the Guide. And Jeff made it clear to me that the historical information in the Guide is far from complete compared to the stuff the historical maps provide in names and the Vault of the original Glorantha manuscript provides in short explanatory lists for those places, with the example of Vindorhall and a quite as interesting sequence of events unfolding there during the Gbaji Wars. So, in short, there was a period of writing in which the Galanini were as Hsunchen as the Basmoli, and the Pendali were just a tribe of the Basmoli who had married into the theist land goddesses. There were tribes of elemental demons like the Likiti which may or may not have been humanoid and may or may not have practiced agriculture or at least horticulture, and may or may not have absorbed some of those Kachisti who escaped Vadeli enslavement after the Nidan eruption. The High Llama pass is the continuation of a migratory path defined by Lord (high?) Llama across the low watershed between (what would become/had already become?) the Janube and the Tanier catchment (or at this time still invasion target) regions, and Mount Nida itself (NW) appears on the God Learner map of the first copies of the Cosmic Mountain. (In fact, we find three corners of a square of dwarf mountains with Magnetic (SW) and Diamond (NE) Mountain, and the fourth corner (SE) lost in what later became the Sshorg Ocean. The Mostali urge for a symmetric World Machine suggests a loss of workrooms in that area.) This extension of the North-South separation of peoples that had been started by Larnste in a way that was counter-productive to separate the differing world views - IMO on purpose, to promote his agenda of change and development - ceated two separate Hykimi areas, still labeled as the Greatwood in the historical and prehistorical maps, but introducing a Umathi cultural element to several of those peoples in the higher foothills. E.g. Jonating Bear "Orlanthi" (alongside Tawari cattle ones) vs. Rathori Hykimi - I doubt that these had always been completely unrelated. Some of this unpublished stuff had been processed in the making of the Broken Council Guidebook, and that gives the lucky collectors who have a copy of either print run of that freeform companion booklet a glimpse of stuff that I suppose ended up in the set of scans in hardcover that accompanied about two dozen kickstarter deliveries of the Guide. (I cannot really regret having previously invested that Glorantha budget in visiting a number of European conventions instead, but I am a bit peeved not to have that access.) The connection between Hykimi (aka Western Genertelan, Wareran Hsunchen) and Orlanthi isn't exactly a new idea. I think it was around 1995 that I took part in an email exchange with a number of people from the Daily (or already Digest) about the Urlanthi, the tribes or clans of animal totem people that became the Theyalan missionaried inhabitants of the Barbarian Belt. I think that some of the stuff debated then was echoed back to Greg by a few of the participants who had direct access at that time, and we either guessed correctly about a few things or actually managed to feed halves of a few concepts into the canon. Yes, this is not explicitely the canon that is printed verbatim in the Guide. It doesn't contradict any information presented as fact about the history of that part of the world, either, and as I said before, a lot of the concepts (or at least names) from older ages have been glossed over in the Guide to keep it somewhat readable without an exegesis like this. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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