[GMs] How would you respond to this?

[islan]

Player (after missing several times): "I run up to the monster that is grappling with my friend, put the barrel of my gun to it and pull the trigger."

How would the BRP rules respond to this? How would you, as a GM, respond to this (if different from the last question)?

[rust]

How would you, as a GM, respond to this (if different from the last question)?

It would depend on the specific situation (for example the kind of monster

involved), but in general I would make it a Difficult action and give the cha-

racter a significant chance to wound his friend.

[islan]

The significance of the statement was that the player wanted to put the barrel right up to it (ie, touching) so that there is theoretically 0% chance of missing.

[sdavies2720]

The significance of the statement was that the player wanted to put the barrel right up to it (ie, touching) so that there is theoretically 0% chance of missing.

Yes, if he pulls the trigger when the gun is against the opponent and when it is aimed toward the opponent, yes there is 0% chance of missing.

To me, the roll is for getting the weapon in place and firing it when it's in place. Depending on situation, there are several ways you could handle the check to see whether they succeeded, but probably just doing an attack roll is the easiest and most consistent.

Steve

[Jason D]

First off, I'd ask the player to make an Agility roll (DEX x 5) to maneuver into that position to take the shot. Then I'd double the already-doubled skill due to being at better-than-point-blank range.

If you're not using hit locations, you're golden.

If you're using hit locations, then you're essentially targeting a specific body location. I'd take the original chance to hit, double it for point blank. Call for the Agility roll as above, then double the skill as above, but then reduce it again by half for the called shot (as described on p213 "Targeting a Specific Area").

The end result would be a doubled skill chance that ignores armor.

If you're being a generous GM, you might let the attack do max rollable damage, with the proviso that if it goes through the monster's hit location (or takes it to 0 HP), it goes on and might hit the player being grappled (he/she should make a Luck roll to avoid this).

[sabre_mmc]

If you're using hit locations, then you're essentially targeting a specific body location. I'd take the original chance to hit, double it for point blank. Call for the Agility roll as above, then double the skill as above, but then reduce it again by half for the called shot (as described on p213 "Targeting a Specific Area").

The end result would be a doubled skill chance that ignores armor.

If you're being a generous GM, you might let the attack do max rollable damage, with the proviso that if it goes through the monster's hit location (or takes it to 0 HP), it goes on and might hit the player being grappled (he/she should make a Luck roll to avoid this).

Why ignore armour.

[vagabond]

Jason is assuming that in this example, the monster is not wearing

a helmet. Genre situation - shotgun and all.

-V

[Harshax]

The relevant Spot Rules in this situation are:

Aimed Attacks [Attack is Difficult]

Close Combat [Makes missile attacks Easy]

Firing into melee [-20% to Hit, may hit ally]

Net result: -20% to Hit. If the attack is under the character's Skill and misses because of the Firing into Melee Modifier, there is a 50% chance the attack struck the monster or the ally.

. . . or . . . if the situation warrants it, you can treat the ally as cover for the monster. In that case, drop the -20% modifier, make the net attack roll Difficult [easy + difficult + difficult = difficult]

A failed skill roll strikes the ally instead.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Harshax

[Thalaba]

Given that the monster and second player are probably moving around while in melee, I would think what you need to do is resolve a way to get the barrel of the gun close to the monster.

I would do one of the following:

1. Have the player first make a successful grapple roll to grab onto a part of the beast and put his gun to in. The second action would be a point blank (easy) shot. I would do this if the gun was a pistol.

2. Alternatively, have the player make a successful fist attack to put the gun into position and then make a point blank shot. I would only do this if the gun was a pistol.

3. If the gun is a long barrelled gun, I would allow him to make the shot but still treat it as if firing into melee. It seems too difficult to point the barrel of a gun into a combat where people are moving around with a long barrelled weapon, the end of which might easily be knocked away.

Thalaba

[Harshax]

I don't see how the player's description of his desired action should alter or add additional rolls or mechanical effects. The problem is, the description of his action sounds like the result of a very good attack. Making the player roll more Skill or Characteristic rolls is actually penalizing the player for adding a flavorful description to his statement of intent.

[RosenMcStern]

There is a simple rule for this (p. 224): firing while engaged in melee is Difficult, but the point blank bonus offsets the penalty. So your character is at exactly the same chance to hit as before, not counting the -20% for shooting into melee.

Of course you must describe the situation to make your judging look fair: describe the fact that he is approaching the monster (an Agility roll or Dodge could be an idea, as suggested), emphasize the fact that the monster is not a static target, and that there is a weak spot between the scales/crests/whatever that protect the monster, but keeping the gun barrel aimed at it while the creature is flaying his friend is hard. Then have him roll against his Combat Reflexes (Firearms skill) to shoot exactly at the moment the gun is touching the moving weak spot. Then give a bonus to damage (autmatic impale or ignore armor) if the roll succeeds.

In any case, the penalty should be bigger than the bonus, or else your players could turn it into an established tactics: "Ok, who is grappling with the Bogeyman this time, while the others go point blank against it?"

[Thalaba]

I don't see how the player's description of his desired action should alter or add additional rolls or mechanical effects. The problem is, the description of his action sounds like the result of a very good attack. Making the player roll more Skill or Characteristic rolls is actually penalizing the player for adding a flavorful description to his statement of intent.

This is the problem - it sounds like the result of a very good attack, an attack he is not willing to make because he doesn't want to risk hitting his friend. Instead, he would like to circumvent the 'firing into melee rule' by putting the gun right to the skin of the beast before firing, thereby missing his friend altogether.

In my mind, he is replacing the riskiness associated with firing from a distance (normal roll+risk hitting his friend) with a new risk, that of getting close enough to the beast to make a sure shot. Now he would make a roll of some kind to close with the beast (a fist attack, a grapple, an agility roll, or a dodge as suggested in the close combat rules, whichever tickles your fancy), followed by an Easy roll to fire his gun with no chance of hitting his friend. I fail to see how this is penalizing the player at all - it merely gives him the opportunity to base his success on a different skill, which is what tactics are all about.

Thalaba

[Simlasa]

If I think of real-life fights I've seen... lots of rolling around, twirling, ducking... it would be tricky to get in close and accurately target one of the participants... unless I also entered the fray by attempting to grapple my target.

Seems like getting that close I'd have a good chance of getting hit by an errant blow.

So... yeah, it does seem like it's a combination of a melee type move... getting the gun in there... similar to stabbing the creature or punching it... then shooting it.

Punch or stab for a pistol... spear/fencing/polearm for a rifle.

[soltakss]

I'd do what Thalaba says - make him attempt a Grapple/Fist Attack to get into position, then fire and auto-hit the head (I'd say 96-00 still misses). I wouldn't ignore armour, unless you aimed at the eye at half chance.

Sure, it's bypassing an aimed shot into melee penalty but that's what Heroic actions should be able to do. In RQM I'd allow them to spend a Hero Point to try this, in BRP I suppose you could use a Fate Point.

[Harshax]

This is the problem - it sounds like the result of a very good attack, an attack he is not willing to make because he doesn't want to risk hitting his friend.

It seems you're arguing the converse, that the player should get to make extra Skill Rolls to get a sure chance of not striking an ally. I would presume that intention in any attack roll, because nobody wants to strike an ally by accident.

I can see your point though, and It would be nice if there was some kind of flourish mechanic, or challenge mechanic (I forget what it is called in other games) - a mechanic where you take extra penalties to do something spectacular. The fate or hero point mechanic might work well for this, as soltakss points out.

I guess one more question to ask the GM; aside from which optional rules he is using; is whether he is using this kind of hero mechanics or more importantly, does he want to treat every character action as a special circumstance. If not, but he allows the player extra rolls to avoid hitting an ally, then he is opening himself up to special rulings in other situations too. eg. The crossing the pit trap scenario:

"The characters encounter an open pit trap in a hallway. The walls of the hall are rough hewn and offer suitable hand-holds. There is also a 2 inch border around the pit trap. An Agility or Climbing roll must be made to cross the pit without falling in." - One player decides he is going to tip toe along the edge of the pit, in addition to using the hand-holds along the wall. Does the character get one chance or two to cross the pit successfully?

Personally, I would be happy with either ruling, but think mine is faster and more realistic. Sometimes it's fun to play things out physically too. Have two of your friends stand close together. Now place your finger on one of their heads. Have them move about violently, and see if how easy it is to say "Bang" while keeping your finger both touching and perpendicular to the player's head. Unless the player is completely unaware of your attack, he should be actively avoiding you while engaged with the other player.

I would do one of the following:

1. Have the player first make a successful grapple roll to grab onto a part of the beast and put his gun to in. The second action would be a point blank (easy) shot. I would do this if the gun was a pistol.

2. Alternatively, have the player make a successful fist attack to put the gun into position and then make a point blank shot. I would only do this if the gun was a pistol.

I think if you go this route, you are essentially allowing or judging two separate actions for the character that round, and a question of timing comes into play. The character's first action is to place his weapon against the monster's head. Now if he is successful, he will make an attack. The "if" is very important here, because he must evaluate the result before attempting a second action. The second action, would come 5 DEX Ranks, or DEX + 3 Strike Ranks later, when the character would presumably pull the trigger if the beast hasn't run off or shrugged off the previous attack.

[Thalaba]

It seems you're arguing the converse, that the player should get to make extra Skill Rolls to get a sure chance of not striking an ally. I would presume that intention in any attack roll, because nobody wants to strike an ally by accident.

I don't see it so much as 'extra' skills rolls as replacing the firing skill roll as the limiting factor with another skill. True, I would still have the firing roll made (either at easy or assuming 100%) - mainly to determine if the shot is a critical and by-passes armour or a fumble and the gun jams (how anti-climactic!). Maybe I'm just arguing semantics, here, though.

I think if you go this route, you are essentially allowing or judging two separate actions for the character that round, and a question of timing comes into play. The character's first action is to place his weapon against the monster's head. Now if he is successful, he will make an attack. The "if" is very important here, because he must evaluate the result before attempting a second action. The second action, would come 5 DEX Ranks, or DEX + 3 Strike Ranks later, when the character would presumably pull the trigger if the beast hasn't run off or shrugged off the previous attack.

You are quite right, and that is how I would deal with hit. too.

Personally, I would be happy with either ruling, but think mine is faster and more realistic.

Your solutions probably are faster, and I think that the idea of the monster using the player as cover is and interesting one. But they don't let the player circumvent the possibility of hitting his friend, which is what he was trying to find a way to do if I read him right.

"The characters encounter an open pit trap in a hallway. The walls of the hall are rough hewn and offer suitable hand-holds. There is also a 2 inch border around the pit trap. An Agility or Climbing roll must be made to cross the pit without falling in." - One player decides he is going to tip toe along the edge of the pit, in addition to using the hand-holds along the wall. Does the character get one chance or two to cross the pit successfully?

In this case, I would simply tell the players to roll their Agility or Climb, whichever is higher. If someone pressed the issue, I would have them roll their climb and, if successful, add a bonus of 10% of their climb skill to their agility roll. I believe this is covered in the rules somewhere, but it would not be my preference.

Sometimes it's fun to play things out physically too. Have two of your friends stand close together. Now place your finger on one of their heads. Have them move about violently, and see if how easy it is to say "Bang" while keeping your finger both touching and perpendicular to the player's head. Unless the player is completely unaware of your attack, he should be actively avoiding you while engaged with the other player.

Hmmm.... Isn't that LARPing?

Thalaba

[Harshax]

Hmmm.... Isn't that LARPing?

Ach! I've been pantsed!

[Nightshade]

Honestly, this sounds like replacing a missile attack with a somewhat difficult melee attack (difficult because the timing of placing the barrel and getting the shot off is crucial). After all, if the monster wouldn't let you stick it with a knife, why is it just going to stand there while you put the barrel of the gun up against it?

[kaddawang]

I think..

1. one wouldn't be able to to it unless the target was mucho big(like a bear - in which case it would be rather silly to try to close in if one could avoid it)- make it a normal point-blank shot.

2. one could do it if the target was restricted(like in a grapple-match) - in which case I'd make it a hard point-blank shot, i.e normal skillroll

3. one could do it if target was unaware - in which case I'd say it would be an easy roll, -20 for firing into chaotic melee.

4. if one could be bothered to grapple to get a hold and the gun in a good position, I'd allow a point-blank shot(s) next round(this could backfire in a nasty way, if the opponent decides to wrestle back and get lucky)

I wouldn't let the attack get any special damage, unless one counts the shock of having a gun suddenly go off in your face. If hit-locations were important, I don't think it would be unreasonable to limit the locations to upper body, left side etc without any extra penalties.

If target is intelligent, one shouldn't forget the intimidation-value of a gun up close.

[Simlasa]

It would be nice if there was some kind of flourish mechanic, or challenge mechanic (I forget what it is called in other games) - a mechanic where you take extra penalties to do something spectacular.

I guess I don't see this sort of thing as 'spectacular'... or heroic... just trying to make a less specific/accurate attack into a more specific/accurate one... where taking time to aim won't really help because of the chaotic motion.

It seems like a matter-of-fact sort of Film Noir thing to do... and harder than just aiming into the fight and shooting. So two actions seems appropriate to me

[soltakss]

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP".

[Al.]

Um

Could you not treat the handgun as a Melee Weapon? (I'd probably be generous and let player use their highest Melee skill)

After all rather than take aim at distance (s)he is instead ducking under beasties guard to touch them with a weapon (like Melee!) they aren't needing to connect with any force which makes it easier but they are needing to pull the trigger at the right moment (which makes it harder) so I'd say that these even out.

Depending on situation character should probably get bonuses for outnumbering and attacking from flank and blah blah blah

Al

[frogspawner]

Player (after missing several times): "I run up to the monster that is grappling with my friend, put the barrel of my gun to it and pull the trigger."

How would the BRP rules respond to this? How would you, as a GM, respond to this (if different from the last question)?

I think the BRP rules give: x2 for Point-Blank, x1/2 for shooting while engaged in combat (that close, he's not just 'shooting into combat'). So overall, no difference in attack chance.

But if he rolls above 1/3rd of his chance (there are three in the melee now) up to his unmodified skill rating, then the shot hits one of the three at random, due to the natural movement of combat (which players tend to forget).

At this range, the monster is also allowed to parry by knocking the gun aside. If it did (though BRP doesn't say what to do in this case, so this is just me), I'd also randomly-select one of the three targets as being hit - but a result of the monster indicating a miss (it wouldn't be fair if it got hit after successfully parrying, now would it? )

My personal response would be: Apply the rules, and just hope I can remember all the relevant ones! But I'd also give the monster a (pre-emptive) free attack on the guy for trying to use a missile weapon in melee (that's not BRP - that's an extra pressie from me. >:->)

Edited March 4, 2009 by frogspawner
Removed irrelevant stuff about aiming for it's head.

[Nightshade]

Um

Could you not treat the handgun as a Melee Weapon? (I'd probably be generous and let player use their highest Melee skill)

As I noted, the problem is you don't have to just get the barrel up against them; you have to get it up against them and pull the trigger before they've moved away again. After all, there's no reason for a creature to just stand around as you're poking it with a handgun barrel.

Doing this right is, I'd expect, not trivial.

[Darran]

First off, I'd ask the player to make an Agility roll (DEX x 5) to maneuver into that position to take the shot. Then I'd double the already-doubled skill due to being at better-than-point-blank range.

If you're not using hit locations, you're golden.

If you're using hit locations, then you're essentially targeting a specific body location. I'd take the original chance to hit, double it for point blank. Call for the Agility roll as above, then double the skill as above, but then reduce it again by half for the called shot (as described on p213 "Targeting a Specific Area").

The end result would be a doubled skill chance that ignores armor.

If you're being a generous GM, you might let the attack do max rollable damage, with the proviso that if it goes through the monster's hit location (or takes it to 0 HP), it goes on and might hit the player being grappled (he/she should make a Luck roll to avoid this).

Then you ask the player to roll for the damage he has done.

"12 points? Very good, that has stung the monster a bit and made him mad."

"Gulp!"

"As you are standing right next to the monster, it gets the double to it's skill. A hit and lets see now, 52 points of damage. Are you wearing any armour?"