MOB Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 14 hours ago, midwinter said: Cool, perhaps, but believable? Nope. About as believable as an escaped slave from the West Indies ending up in Iceland. Which happened. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midwinter Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 11 hours ago, MOB said: About as believable as an escaped slave from the West Indies ending up in Iceland. Which happened. Ok, then let's hope for an epic 17th century Chaosium campaign in the near future where Abel Tasman and crew is attacked by a bunch of warclub-wielding, blonde Norwegians paddling their canoes in Golden Bay, New Zealand. It could have happened. Norwegians were always great sailors and daring explorers. Maybe they got stranded there earlier? Regardless, it could have happened. Quote THE ODIOUS ONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlauthuth Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 1 hour ago, midwinter said: Ok, then let's hope for an epic 17th century Chaosium campaign in the near future where Abel Tasman and crew is attacked by a bunch of warclub-wielding, blonde Norwegians paddling their canoes in Golden Bay, New Zealand. It could have happened. Norwegians were always great sailors and daring explorers. Maybe they got stranded there earlier? Regardless, it could have happened. “X was built/inhabited by a lost civilization of Scandinavians” is a pretty cliché bit, though 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hooded Claw Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 7 hours ago, midwinter said: Ok, then let's hope for an epic 17th century Chaosium campaign in the near future where Abel Tasman and crew is attacked by a bunch of warclub-wielding, blonde Norwegians paddling their canoes in Golden Bay, New Zealand. It could have happened. Norwegians were always great sailors and daring explorers. Maybe they got stranded there earlier? Regardless, it could have happened. Because obviously making sure there is white, western male representation in gaming is a deep seated problem, and the one that we’re trying hard, despite some vocal resistance, to promote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midwinter Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 6 hours ago, umlauthuth said: “X was built/inhabited by a lost civilization of Scandinavians” is a pretty cliché bit, though I haven't seen stuff like that enough to call it a cliché. Is it in books or movies? 25 minutes ago, Addison said: Because obviously making sure there is white, western male representation in gaming is a deep seated problem, and the one that we’re trying hard, despite some vocal resistance, to promote. Are you saying that you are trying to promote other forms of representation, you mean? Ok, whatabout a bunch of Japanese ronin now turned pirates meeting the explorers? It could have happened. They could have been stranded there after a huge storm. I don't see enough Japanese people in CoC scenarios. 1 Quote THE ODIOUS ONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hooded Claw Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 1 hour ago, midwinter said: Ok, what about a bunch of Japanese ronin now turned pirates meeting the explorers? It could have happened. They could have been stranded there after a huge storm. I don't see enough Japanese people in CoC scenarios. Gee, I didn’t realize the Japanese had already invented audio and video duplicating equipment by then. Hang onto your intellectual property, ladies! Seriously, folks. How did a discussion of scary cover art devolve into “Fifty Shades of Political Correctness”? I don’t care about representation, diversity or inclusiveness in a horror game. Cthulhu is coming to devour the WHOLE species, regardless of race, ethnicity, etc., and you want to go all Baskin Robbins and offer him 31 flavors? Have you thought this through? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hooded Claw Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Wow. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klecser Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, seneschal said: Seriously, folks. How did a discussion of scary cover art devolve into “Fifty Shades of Political Correctness”? I don’t care about representation, diversity or inclusiveness in a horror game. Cthulhu is coming to devour the WHOLE species, regardless of race, ethnicity, etc., and you want to go all Baskin Robbins and offer him 31 flavors? Have you thought this through? Whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not, there is a market for it. It has been shown many times over the last few years. If you aren't the market, you aren't the market. That doesn't mean you deny the market to those who want it. Gaming is for everyone. And everyone has different tastes. This discussion started because people expressed their tastes. Some found the art contrary to their tastes. Some liked it. But nobody said: "Stop the book because the art doesn't appeal to me." It kind of sounds like you are saying "stop the theme because it doesn't appeal to me." Have YOU thought this through? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 49 minutes ago, seneschal said: I don’t care about representation, diversity or inclusiveness in a horror game. Really? How about representation, diversity and inclusiveness in the players for your horror game? Isn't there a relationship between the two things? 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midwinter Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Steve said: Really? How about representation, diversity and inclusiveness in the players for your horror game? Isn't there a relationship between the two things? What do you mean? Representation, diversity and inclusiveness in players around the kitchen table during a CoC session? Quote THE ODIOUS ONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 1 minute ago, midwinter said: What do you mean? Representation, diversity and inclusiveness in players around the kitchen table during a CoC session? Yes. Or around the table at a convention, or whereever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midwinter Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Well, I only play with my long time friends. We are white, old and Swedish. Well, I'm technically a half-Finn, since my mom was Finnish. Come to think of it, another one is also a half-Finn. Most in the hobby are white so we certainly "represent". We are also diverse, since we are different from each other personally and socially. And we are inclusive, since we play with the half-Finn who tends to play murder hobos or plain weird characters when we play an old Swedish fantasy rpg (Drakar och Demoner). If we would start playing with an Indian guy all of a sudden, just to include a person from India, it would be tokenism. Tokenism is bad. 1 Quote THE ODIOUS ONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 As I’ve said before, political correctness is an enemy of (among other things) good gaming. It is a distraction from coming up with exciting stories to share with your friends. A quality product will attract customers without regard to their demographics, and it has since the inception of role-playing in the 1970s. Want to include a black investigator on, say, the cover of the new starter set? Good! Art looks great, fits the time period depicted. But that’s a whole other thing from an attitude that says, “OMG! We haven’t had enough art depicting Group X on our product. We must immediately do triple flips to include more depictions of Group X in our gaming books!” That’s silly. Write good games. Tell exciting stories. Members of Group X will buy and enjoy your games, along with members of Groups A, H, Y and Z, respectively. That’s being inclusive. Wow. Really. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klecser Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, seneschal said: As I’ve said before, political correctness is an enemy of (among other things) good gaming. There is a whole segment of the hobby that wouldn't feel welcome at your table if you truly believe this. I don't believe this at all. The purpose of political correctness is respect. You respect a person and their experience so that they can feel welcome. You have it completely backwards if you ignore who your players are and don't attenuate to what language they decide is respectful or not. And that's the thing that you don't seem to understand. YOU don't get to decide whether the language you use hurts someone. You can't tell someone how they should feel. And you can't dismiss how they feel just because you don't want to grow and work on your language. I got news for you. I would not feel welcome at your table. And I'm a white man. To everyone else in the audience: You are welcome in gaming. There are groups who are capable of acknowledging who you are AND can give you a great story. We will not ignore your experience and we will listen to your needs. Edited July 30, 2019 by klecser 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midwinter Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 But with political correctness comes also the demand for created inclusiveness. How inclusive should the art and scenarios be exactly? Can you include everyone in a products artwork? What do you do when the Basques or Mbuti people feel left out? What do you do when the handicapped feel left out? Whatabout the deaf or the blind? Are there any official CoC scenarios where a pre-gen is in a wheelchair or has a speech impediment? Quote THE ODIOUS ONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hooded Claw Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) I criticised the cover art for being a bit too goofy for straight ahead Cthulhu gaming but wanted to applaud Chaosium for their positive representation and inclusivity regardless. Apparently the last part has proved contentious to some people on the forum. Who’d have thunk it. And in today’s world. And any time the phrase ‘political correctness’ gets bandied around as a derogatory term, game over. Edited July 30, 2019 by Rick Meints Font size irregularities 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Sadly, klecser, political correctness achieves the exact opposite of its purported goals. Instead of promoting harmony and understanding among people it squelches diversity of speech and thought while dividing folks into ever-narrower mutually suspicious and aggrieved interest groups. It evaluates and values people based on their assigned category instead of on their uniqueness as individuals. Despite its demands for “tolerance” it prevents people from toughening up and learning to accept and work together with those who may disagree with them. It promotes the opposite of Martin Luther King, Jr.s’ dream that people would be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin (or their ethnicity, or sexual preference, etc.). Political correctness is evil and counterproductive — and as midwinter points out, ultimately silly and futile. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hooded Claw Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, seneschal said: Sadly, klecser, political correctness achieves the exact opposite of its purported goals. Instead of promoting harmony and understanding among people it squelches diversity of speech and thought while dividing folks into ever-narrower mutually suspicious and aggrieved interest groups. It evaluates and values people based on their assigned category instead of on their uniqueness as individuals. Despite its demands for “tolerance” it prevents people from toughening up and learning to accept and work together with those who may disagree with them. It promotes the opposite of Martin Luther King, Jr.s’ dream that people would be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin (or their ethnicity, or sexual preference, etc.). Political correctness is evil and counterproductive — and as midwinter points out, ultimately silly and futile. Absolute garbage. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klecser Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) It is. It is mental gymnastics to avoid having to be responsible for what one says. seneschal, your perspective is based upon how you WANT the world to work, not how it actually works. And that is insulting to people in marginalized groups. And MLK is rolling over in his grave right now based upon how egregiously you've misinterpreted his goals. Edited July 30, 2019 by klecser 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsanford Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, klecser said: It is. It is mental gymnastics to avoid having to be responsible for what one says. seneschal, your perspective is based upon how you WANT the world to work, not how it actually works. And that is insulting to people in marginalized groups. And MLK is rolling over in his grave right now based upon how egregiously you've misinterpreted his goals. You guys aren’t making friends arguing this on an RPG site. 1 Quote Check out our homebrew rules for freeform magic in BRP -> No reason for Ars Magica players to have all the fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hooded Claw Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Says who? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klecser Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 1 minute ago, rsanford said: You guys aren’t making friends arguing this on an RPG site. We didn't bring it up. We are questioning comments that prevent people from enjoying the hobby of role-playing. If that doesn't win me friends @rsanford, I'm PLEASED that I'd lose those potential friends. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsanford Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 It’s an expression but if you have to know, says me! Quote Check out our homebrew rules for freeform magic in BRP -> No reason for Ars Magica players to have all the fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsanford Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Just now, klecser said: We didn't bring it up. We are questioning comments that prevent people from enjoying the hobby of role-playing. If that doesn't win me friends @rsanford, I'm PLEASED that I'd lose those potential friends. Lots of people like being divisive. You’re not the first. 2 Quote Check out our homebrew rules for freeform magic in BRP -> No reason for Ars Magica players to have all the fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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