Tea in Glorantha

[Joerg]

Third Age Glorantha has three general tea growing areas:

Kralorela (mainly the easternmost islands, such as Zon An and the small one east of Fanzai)

Seshnela (the western parts of Noyelle and the eastern hills of Nolos)

Umathela (predominantly Cerngoth)

There is also mention of a Tree of Life tea brewed in Laskal, though strangely brewed from the nuts rather than the leaves of the Tree of Life enslaved by Ompalam there. The Jrusteli are said to have imitated that Tree of Life and started to grow such tea in Jrustela.

Now when did the Jrusteli first contact Laskal? It would be fun if the Tree of Life enslaved by Ompalam would have given birth to the Tea dryads and their Runners imported to Jrustela, and from there distributed to Seshnela and Umathela as well as to the False Dragon Ring's Kralorela. That would require an early expedition on Waertagi ships, though.

 

According to the Guide, tea cultivation in Malkioni culture originated in Jrustela in the Second Age and was brought to Seshnela and Umathela from there. Interaction with Kralorela under the False Dragon Ring and transplanting an entire Kralorelan city may have played a role there, too.

I would have expected the uplands around Temple to have been a major tea growing area in Old Seshnela, with the Noyelle plantations just an outskirt area of that.

 

I wonder whether there are tea plantations in Old Seshnela and Jrustela that have gone wild and are now under the care of aldryami gardeners. While tea plants usually are cropped at hip height, they can grow several meters high.

As an evergreen leafy plant growing in brown elf habitat, I wonder whether there is a dedicated type of Runner associated with these now feral tea plantations.

 

As an aside, we don't know anything about Runner procreation. Are they following the Green Elf model of sexual reproduction between males or females, or are they more similar to yellow (or red) elves that result from mating between the male (only) species and associated dryads?

Those monkeys harvesting the tea on Zon An might be used in imitation of Tea Runners doing the harvesting in elf forests.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those monkeys harvesting the tea on Zon An might be used in imitation of Tea Runners doing the harvesting in elf forests.

 

Are they Man Rune like Praxian baboons? I'm not familiar with Kralorela because uhhh it's super orientalism and I lived all over Asia and study Asian lingustics, language and culture with a degree in East Asian studies.

 

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Are they Man Rune like Praxian baboons?

The Baboons, like humans, are a mix of the Man and Beast runes. The runners, like elves, should be a mix of the Man and Plant runes - though I'd expect shaded heavily towards the plant side.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I wonder whether there are tea plantations in Old Seshnela and Jrustela that have gone wild and are now under the care of aldryami gardeners. While tea plants usually are cropped at hip height, they can grow several meters high.

As an evergreen leafy plant growing in brown elf habitat, I wonder whether there is a dedicated type of Runner associated with these now feral tea plantations.

Sounds like something that should exist at least in Jrustela.

 

16 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm not familiar with Kralorela because uhhh it's super orientalism

This certainly has been the view, but I believe David Millians is working on an RQ book specifically focused on Kralorela that hopefully gives us a new and broader perspective.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Baboons, like humans, are a mix of the Man and Beast runes. The runners, like elves, should be a mix of the Man and Plant runes - though I'd expect shaded heavily towards the plant side.

21 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm not familiar with Kralorela because uhhh it's super orientalism

 This certainly has been the view, but I believe David Millians is working on an RQ book specifically focused on Kralorela that hopefully gives us a new and broader perspective.

• Oh, I didn't mean the Runners, although that's interesting, I meant the monkeys!
• Thank goodness and all praise David Millians. It would be entirely feasible to de-orientalise Kralorela! The entire premise is fascinating in the first place: draconic enlightenment.

[jajagappa]

26 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Oh, I didn't mean the Runners, although that's interesting, I meant the monkeys!

I'm sure the monkeys are similar to baboons, but with an even higher rating in the Beast Rune (probably 90%).

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'm sure the monkeys are similar to baboons, but with an even higher rating in the Beast Rune (probably 90%).

I think the point of using monkeys for the harvest is to avoid contact with the man rune.

I wonder whether herd men would do as tea pickers...

[albinoboo]

I suspect the monkeys  are a reference to the PG Tip teabags adverts.  They featured anthropomorphic chimpanzees on ads between 1956 and 2002. 

51 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

• Oh, I didn't mean the Runners, although that's interesting, I meant the monkeys!
• Thank goodness and all praise David Millians. It would be entirely feasible to de-orientalise Kralorela! The entire premise is fascinating in the first place: draconic enlightenment.

All other Gloranthan cultures are smorgasbord of bits of European, Middle Eastern, Indian, and Central Asian cultures. What's the difference?  

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Now when did the Jrusteli first contact Laskal? It would be fun if the Tree of Life enslaved by Ompalam would have given birth to the Tea dryads and their Runners imported to Jrustela, and from there distributed to Seshnela and Umathela as well as to the False Dragon Ring's Kralorela. That would require an early expedition on Waertagi ships, though.

The Free Men of the Sea could have done it on their own if first contact happened in the half century between Taniens Victory and the New Dragon Ring conquest (718-768). I don't mind camellia sinensis jrustelii originally being imported to Kralorela by foreign pantomime "mandarins" as almost a subversion of the imperialist trope . . . maybe David will weigh in on his next orbit. On the other hand, the East could have sourced it themselves well before that, although in that scenario it's curious why we find no reference in the East Isles as yet. Maybe a tea dryad from the Errinoru World Tour entourage got left with the Fethlon for some reason and it spread from there.

I'm not 100% convinced camellia sinensis jrustelii and camellia sinensis kralor are even the same plant or have the same effects. Kralorelan "tea" may be a broad category of boiled plant matter extracts, some of which make you sleepy, produce visions, soothe the stomach, support the libido and so on. The Guide is ambiguous.

Caffeinated gardeners in Old Seshnela a must. My belief on runners is that they do not personally reproduce sexually or otherwise but are a perpetually juvenile and self-replenishing resource the forest uses in its own reproductive process . . . sort of a signifier of plant love at work. When you see runners gathering the forest is expressing itself. Elves reproduce. Runners "are" the reproductive organ or at least a metaphor the forest supports.

This is why they get so angry when you harvest their runners for the exotic pet trade and why, he drawled as though knowledgeably, Voria and Voriof figure in more civilized agrarian cults, no longer children of the forest but children of the field. They aren't participants in the actual rites but their presence points to older green worlds.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

The Free Men of the Sea could have done it on their own if first contact happened in the half century between Taniens Victory and the New Dragon Ring conquest (718-768).

I would prefer to have a little more time for the Jrusteli settlers to establish tea as their export good. (It does make a good inversion of the role of tea in the history of thirteen other provinces...)

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

I don't mind camellia sinensis jrustelii originally being imported to Kralorela by foreign pantomime "mandarins" as almost a subversion of the imperialist trope . . .

I was thinking of that side effect, yes. Having a rice and silk land there is already quite stereotypical, although rice cultivation is almost omnipresent. Theyalan culture, Old Brithos and Fronela are almost standing out not cultivating some form of rice.

 

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

maybe David will weigh in on his next orbit. On the other hand, the East could have sourced it themselves well before that, although in that scenario it's curious why we find no reference in the East Isles as yet. Maybe a tea dryad from the Errinoru World Tour entourage got left with the Fethlon for some reason and it spread from there.

Errinoru's world tour is a possibility.

 

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

I'm not 100% convinced camellia sinensis jrustelii and camellia sinensis kralor are even the same plant or have the same effects. Kralorelan "tea" may be a broad category of boiled plant matter extracts, some of which make you sleepy, produce visions, soothe the stomach, support the libido and so on. The Guide is ambiguous.

There is also the role of milk in tea preparation left to discuss.

 

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

Caffeinated gardeners in Old Seshnela a must. My belief on runners is that they do not personally reproduce sexually or otherwise but are a perpetually juvenile and self-replenishing resource the forest uses in its own reproductive process . . . sort of a signifier of plant love at work. When you see runners gathering the forest is expressing itself. Elves reproduce. Runners "are" the reproductive organ or at least a metaphor the forest supports.

Ahem... Voria is the goddess of aldryami sex organs, and the role of the pollen-bearers would probably better filled with the pixies.

There is nothing wrong with the runners being the product of some parthenogenic process without any fatherhood involved.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, albinoboo said:

All other Gloranthan cultures are smorgasbord of bits of European, Middle Eastern, Indian, and Central Asian cultures. What's the difference?  

The problem is that Kralorela isn't ENOUGH of a smorgasbord. I think we all want more weirdness in there.

Hell, if you look at the current iteration of Seshnela, with its heavily indianized influences, it's not unreasonable to want Kralorela to feature some inspirations from way outside East Asia (the Ignorance Mezo-American stuff is one such element that could be extended, played with, or what have you).

Personally, I look forward to the whole draconic enlightenment deal to be accompanied by less culturally monolithic ideas. We know from digging around in the esoteric lore that Kralorelan history has been far less contiguous and stable and uniform than the texts on Dragon Emperors make it seem, and I want those internal differences, complexities, weirdnesses and so on out into the light and into plain text.

Anyway, this is all an aside to the main topic.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

@Joerg, @scott-martin
On the topic of Runner reproduction, I was reminded of an online world-building/speculative biology project that I quite love. It features a kind of animal-derived plant where every other generation is sessile and mobile. It's not spot on for Aldryami, but there are some interesting parralels. The mobile (haploid) generation is referred to as "mobile fruit". Not sure if Runners can be seen as "autonomous seeds" or "autonomous saplings" or somesuch (iirc they are derived from smaller plants in a relationship roughly size-analogous to humanoid Aldryami) but hey.

https://sunriseonilion.wordpress.com/ilion/species/red-plants/

[albinoboo]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There  is also the role of milk in tea preparation left to discuss.

Green and Earl Grey tea is normally drunk without milk. In addition, lemon can be used instead of milk. The order in which the milk or tea is added is also important. Originally, low quality cups would crack if you put the tea in first. Expensive porcelain cups wouldn't, so the order in which you put the tea and milk in was a demonstration of status. Perhaps Malkioni caste rules on what order you can put milk in and the use of lemon.

 

[g33k]

Does Gloranthan "tea" default to Camellia sinensis?  Does it do so broadly, or only regionally?

My RW understanding is that various infusions & tisanes have been used in most cultures 'round the world, even before the "tea" plant came out of Asia.  Even today, one might hear "chamomile tea" or "mint tea" and presume it to be without any "tea" (C. Sinensis) in the brew...

I presume that herbal infusions in Glorantha are similarly widespread & similarly variable as to ingredients.

Are there any uniquely-Gloranthan tisanes, based on herbs that don't exist in the RW?

Edited July 23, 2019 by g33k
clarified RW-vs-Glorantha

[albinoboo]

21 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

@Joerg, @scott-martin
On the topic of Runner reproduction, I was reminded of an online world-building/speculative biology project that I quite love. It features a kind of animal-derived plant where every other generation is sessile and mobile. It's not spot on for Aldryami, but there are some interesting parralels. The mobile (haploid) generation is referred to as "mobile fruit". Not sure if Runners can be seen as "autonomous seeds" or "autonomous saplings" or somesuch (iirc they are derived from smaller plants in a relationship roughly size-analogous to humanoid Aldryami) but hey.

https://sunriseonilion.wordpress.com/ilion/species/red-plants/

Similar to what I was thinking. I was looking at large scale fungal zoospores.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoospore

Edited July 23, 2019 by albinoboo

[albinoboo]

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

Does Gloranthan "tea" default to Camellia sinensis?  Does it do so broadly, or only regionally?

My RW understanding is that various infusions & tisanes have been used in most cultures 'round the world, even before the "tea" plant came out of Asia.  Even today, one might hear "chamomile tea" or "mint tea" and presume it to be without any "tea" (C. Sinensis) in the brew...

I presume that herbal infusions are similarly widespread & similarly variable as to ingredients.

Are there any uniquely-Gloranthan tisanes, based on herbs that don't exist in the RW?

Must resist

Must resist

Ahh I failed my pedant roll.  The word Tea comes from  Chinese and into European languages via Dutch. The word was retrospectively applied to herbal infusions. That's much better, I can relax now.

[davecake]

Kralorela is far too much fantasy China, agreed. 

[g33k]

26 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

Must resist

Must resist

Ahh I failed my pedant roll.  The word Tea comes from  Chinese and into European languages via Dutch. The word was retrospectively applied to herbal infusions. That's much better, I can relax now.

Dude.

Wrong forum!

This is clearly the new RQG Passion rules in play...

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, g33k said:

Dude.

Wrong forum!

This is clearly the new RQG Passion rules in play...

The Dying Earth RPG actually has 'Pedantry' as a skill. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The problem is that Kralorela isn't ENOUGH of a smorgasbord. I think we all want more weirdness in there.

It's this weird monolithic place with really terrible Western fake Chinese names. The rest of Glorantha just does its own thing but Kralorela refuses to just ... be Gloranthan and has terrible faux-Chinese names. It's really offputting and also ignores literally all of the rest of East and Southeast Asia for some kind of imaginary China that isn't even ACTUAL China.

Let's get some Sumer in the mix, let's throw in some actual historical fun with the Dongson culture and the Zhou rebellion against the Shang and the kingdom of Dali. Maybe also some aggressive counter-culture from the Blood Sun weirdos by southern groups who disagree with the narrative and give an existential threat.We got weird anti-Solar pantheon pushing in from the Naughty North against the teachings of draconic enlightenment. Maybe there are slaves and they don't wanna be slaves? We already have the poison cult ladies.

Let's also stick to names like Kralor rather than "suan chow", it's beyond grating in 2019 and into pretty much racist.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

also ignores literally all of the rest of East and Southeast Asia

Teshnos is very much India and SE Asia.

[g33k]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The Dying Earth RPG actually has 'Pedantry' as a skill. 

Yeah, but I meant the whole thing where he was struggling to resist, but overcome by his Passion:Pedantry.  Such a clear portrayal of the new RQ mechanics!   😁

That said... it was of course said in snark, not seriously 😉 

 ... and this is probably enough of a mechanic-specific sidetrack for the world-centric subforum?   🙄

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

Teshnos is very much India and SE Asia.

yes but that doesn't mean Kralorela can't have Tai influences; Tai peoples live in China and in fact originated there, only entering Southeast Asia rather recently. Austroasiatic speakers also have long been part of the Sinosphere; Vietnam was a Chinese subsidiary since the Han dynasty, and many Austroasiatic speakers lived in China. Many of these groups were crucial in the formation of early China; several of the early Chinese states, notably Chu, Yue and others, were not Chinese speaking, but spoke Tai and Austroasiatic languages. Their customs, metallurgy, music and culture affected Han peoples quite strongly.

[g33k]

I too would love to see Kralorela with much broader influences... including non-Asian influences!

I mean...
We can see Mongol and N.American influences (among others) in Prax.  We can see Norse and Vedic influences (among others) in Sartar.  BOTH have a healthy dose of Gloranthan Wierdness without much RW antecedent...

I hope for no less from a more-realized Kralorela!

 

[Ian Absentia]

42 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Teshnos is very much India and SE Asia.

Which introduces a very similar complaint about the treatment of Teshnos, which I understand is under some revision.  It's been a little too on-the-nose, especially geographically.

Oddly, the semi-analogue of Japan, Vormain, seems to duck much of the typical Orientalism.

!i!

Edited July 23, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Richard S.]

I don't have anything to say about tea really but I'm just happy my meme found its way here and started more discussion.