New Monograph Submitted - Aces High

[Pete Nash]

I refer to Black people as a race as Negroes. If they don't mind that then thats good, but there are other 'period' things in the book that will cause offence if Negro does. I realise I am in a no win situation here and I haven't even mentioned the religions yet!

I am in full support of your conviction to keep the setting accurate to the period. When you write a historically based setting you should use the terms and beliefs prevalent to the time, as its part of what makes it interesting to roleplay in.

Political Correctness can often get out of hand. Are players going to slate my forthcoming 'Rome' supplement because I include details about slavery, and the fact that people of the time don't see anything wrong with the institution? Or because I have a section detailing Roman profanity? Or that women are second class non-citizens? All are valid cultural behaviours of that time and shouldn't be sanitised for the sake of modern day beliefs.

Although I myself am disturbed by racism and sexual inequality (and would be the first to jump out in front of a KKK mob armed only with a big stick and my personal honour), I still wholeheartedly love reading the Flashman books!

[Al.]

I still wholeheartedly love reading the Flashman books!

Fortunately I didn't read them in order. (Fortunate for me). Otherwise I'd have stopped at the first.

I can accept main character's cowardice and venality. And his cheerful racism and misogyny I found acceptable in the context of (pseudo) historical versimilitude and the way he was so even handed with the insults.

But the casual rape scene and Flashy's justification of it turned my stomache and turned me right off reading any more. In the oaf's own words for me it was 'the wrong side of enough'

Al

[ORtrail]

I am in full support of your conviction to keep the setting accurate to the period. When you write a historically based setting you should use the terms and beliefs prevalent to the time, as its part of what makes it interesting to roleplay in.

Political Correctness can often get out of hand. Are players going to slate my forthcoming 'Rome' supplement because I include details about slavery, and the fact that people of the time don't see anything wrong with the institution? Or because I have a section detailing Roman profanity? Or that women are second class non-citizens? All are valid cultural behaviours of that time and shouldn't be sanitised for the sake of modern day beliefs.

Although I myself am disturbed by racism and sexual inequality (and would be the first to jump out in front of a KKK mob armed only with a big stick and my personal honour), I still wholeheartedly love reading the Flashman books!

A good supplement can give you the nasty details of a particular time and place, it is what it was, so to speak. Why call out the PC police for telling it like it was?

I do find it curious though, that even it a mythical western setting, (with giant bat winged heads, etc) the idea of playing as Native Americans simply isn't an option? Unless your are at least half white? I assume playing as a female will be also very limited?

GM: "Sorry Bill, the game isn't set up for you to play as an Apache Indian, it's because historically they'd never be allowed around a group of whites."

Bill: "Oh, bummer. Well, I guess I understand."

GM: "Okay, three giant bat winged heads crash into the tavern where you guys are drinking. What do you do?"

Bill: "HUH????"

[Jason D]

I do find it curious though, that even it a mythical western setting, (with giant bat winged heads, etc) the idea of playing as Native Americans simply isn't an option?

It is an option.

Chapter 10

Arcane Lore in the West

Optional Player occupations - includes Diabolist, Voodoo Priest, Witches, Warlocks, the Drifter and the Red Skins.

...

The Red Skins are steeped in mystery; few outsiders are allowed to freely explore the insides of an Indian camp without being harassed. They call themselves ‘the human beings’ and seek guidance from the spirits.

Chapter 11

Red Skin Tribes

Red Skin rituals - All of the American Indian tribes are closely linked in some way to a mystical power. These rituals put them in touch with their Totem Animal, reveal knowledge or heal.

Totem Animals for the Brave and Magic for the Shaman.

Animism, Totemism and Fetishism - Three points of view for the origin of Red Skins magic.

The American Indian Language Tree - many American Indian languages all stemmed from one original language. How easy is it for Apache to talk to Sioux? Optional rules to cover this fact.

[RosenMcStern]

Or because I have a section detailing Roman profanity?

Ahem, in fact that section is a bit too anatomically detailed. I'll have to censor it. :innocent:

Just kidding.

I do find it curious though, that even it a mythical western setting, (with giant bat winged heads, etc) the idea of playing as Native Americans simply isn't an option? Unless your are at least half white? I assume playing as a female will be also very limited?

I do not think this is a problem for a good roleplaying group. I have given some ideas about how to mix social groups that despise each other in Stupor Mundi and will certainly provide more hints in Stupor Mundi 2 (the problem has already arisen during playtesting).

I do not know how the terminology problem is handled in Aces High, but one way it can be handled is to use a "politically correct" term for ethnic minorities in the text, and let the NPCs use the offensive words, i.e. say "Native americans" in the text and "Red skins" when a characters is speaking. As for finding a good reason why your character would get along with an "Amerind", well, I recall the US Army used lots of native scouts during the Indian wars.

[RMS]

I do not know how the terminology problem is handled in Aces High, but one way it can be handled is to use a "politically correct" term for ethnic minorities in the text, and let the NPCs use the offensive words, i.e. say "Native americans" in the text and "Red skins" when a characters is speaking. As for finding a good reason why your character would get along with an "Amerind", well, I recall the US Army used lots of native scouts during the Indian wars.

I'm not sure how common the terms "injuns" or "red skins" are, outside of 19th century serials on the east coast and 20th century Hollywood. Throughout the 18th century and early 19th (which I know better), most white Americans, at least who dealt with them, used tribe specific names. To them, the difference in a Cherokee and a Crow were as distinct as the difference in a Frenchman and an Englishman....probably more apparent considering location, etc. It's really an after-the-period artifact to start lumping all Native Americans together as one whole group and using one slang word to cover the gamut.

The one word that gets thrown around a lot is "savages" in the first hand accounts I have, or "heathens" but that only applies to the ones who don't, at least nominally, convert to Christianity. It may well have gone out of vogue by the late 19th century.

All of this is a bit too little and too late, I realize, and if the idea is to mimic pre-PC westerns, then the terms are perfect. I'm all in favor of dropping modern terms when appropriate. I like getting inside a culture and trying to think the way they do, from top to bottom. The idea of just changing appearances, but keeping the language, morals, etc. exactly like 21st Century western culture is incredibly boring IMO, and it's exactly what so much fantasy tries to do: a veneer of magic and swords over current day New York.

[MrJealousy]

Is Aces High the Supernatural Western mentioned on the index page of this site, or are there really two Western supplements in the works/available for BRP?

Nope. Not related in anyway.

[cjbowser]

Nope. Not related in anyway.

Thanks for letting me know. I'll pick this one up in a few days.

[MrJealousy]

I'm not sure how common the terms "injuns" or "red skins" are, outside of 19th century serials on the east coast and 20th century Hollywood.

Got to admit I'm probably quite heavily influenced by hollywood.

The one word that gets thrown around a lot is "savages" in the first hand accounts I have, or "heathens" but that only applies to the ones who don't, at least nominally, convert to Christianity.

Yeah, didn't think either of those options had the right stuff though, a bit too generic.

All of this is a bit too little and too late, I realize, and if the idea is to mimic pre-PC westerns, then the terms are perfect.

Ah, a compliment. Thank you!

[MrJealousy]

It is an option.

I'm beginning to develop a lot of respect for you Jason. If you carry on making such incisive comments from such a small amount of blurb I may just let you answer everthing

The standard set of occupations are what I would encourage most people to look at first. Start the game with them, explore the setting, find out stuff, maybe go a little mad. Then if you want to experiment with the shadows, this other bunch of occupations are available that make other things possible, allow you to explore different situations. But, initially the optional occupations are probably going to be NPCs.

In theory I would say that if it has intelligence it has the potential to be a pc. But obviously Big Head Bat People aren't really going to be much use in your regular party :-) I suppose a party of Big Head Bat People is possible. I have played an RQ campaign once where all of the players were Broo, which was incredibly anarchic and a lot of fun. Just not something with any longevity in it...

Edited March 11, 2009 by MrJealousy

[RMS]

Got to admit I'm probably quite heavily influenced by hollywood.

The real west isn't nearly as fun to play in as Hollywood versions of it would make it appear, so that's a good thing for an RPG. Plus, most Americans (even those who came from the "west", like me) view it through Hollywood. I never got into the cowboys vs. indians thing though. I much like the good cowboys vs. the bad ones, ala the more popular John Wayne movies and into the Eastwood spaghetti western era...lots of grit and still cinematic and very playable.

Yeah, didn't think either of those options had the right stuff though, a bit too generic.

Agreed.

Ah, a compliment. Thank you!

Great! I wasn't really trying to say anything (negative) about your product...just commenting on my trivia on US history. I'm very interested in interactions between European settlers and Native Americans...right now I'm studying the interaction that wiped so many out that the US was so open and easy to populate during the "move west" period: small pox. That disease probably did as much to form modern America as anything else that happened at the time of the Revolution, ironically. It's not very gameable however!

[Jason D]

I'm beginning to develop a lot of respect for you Jason. If you carry on making such incisive comments from such a small amount of blurb I may just let you answer everthing

Just trying to be helpful, when your original post already answered the question.

There's been way too much negativity around these parts... it's nice to see a wave of new content being published and people* getting jazzed about the game again.

* myself included

[MrJealousy]

I am definately 'jazzed'. I just hope everyone that buys Aces High likes it.

[kaddawang]

Well, I bought the PDF. Money well spent!

You managed to pack a lot of good things in a small package. When can we expect the Companion?

[Puck]

I am definitely 'jazzed'. I just hope everyone that buys Aces High likes it.

A western was not really something I was looking forward to, but I am very glad I picked it up. After a quick scan of the book I am dying to blow the smoke from the gun and spit tobacco juice on scorpions.

[MrJealousy]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Its probably a bit early to talk about expansions... but I do have some ideas.

[ORtrail]

Just trying to be helpful, when your original post already answered the question.

There's been way too much negativity around these parts... it's nice to see a wave of new content being published and people* getting jazzed about the game again.

Well, reading comprehension = epic failure, huh?

If Aces High is an equal opportunity offender, with no one race being singled out as the "villian" and derogatory terms are freely used for everyone, then how can I complain?

To be true to the setting I understand the need to use them -when necessary. The consistent use of "Red Skins" when the term "American Indian" or even just "Indian" would have sufficed though, I simply can't agree with.

Go to the Chaosium website and read through the Aces High blurb, or even the first post here. Would sustituting either of the above words in place of "Red Skins" have impacted the setting? Destroyed historical accuracy?

Or would it have avoided causing needless offense?

[soltakss]

I do not know how the terminology problem is handled in Aces High, but one way it can be handled is to use a "politically correct" term for ethnic minorities in the text, and let the NPCs use the offensive words, i.e. say "Native americans" in the text and "Red skins" when a characters is speaking.

That would probably work. The PDF is out now, so it is probably a moot point. If something is included in the Introduction explaining terms then that should be OK.

As for finding a good reason why your character would get along with an "Amerind", well, I recall the US Army used lots of native scouts during the Indian wars.

Wasn't Tonto a Mythic Western character? Last of the Mohicans?

Look at the number of films with Native Americans working alongside cowboys or soldiers, acting as scouts, gunfighters or lawmen. It's only an issue if the GM/Players make it an issue.

[seneschal]

Dagnabit, pard. If yuh had to include them thar Red Skins, the least yuh coulda done is include their scores and stats! Hangin' is too good for uh!

Washington Redskins

[dragonewt]

I used power points specifically to give non-power-users something to do with those points. It fit the already-existing paradigm of high POW = luckier and stronger-willed.

...

However, the flexibility of the system should let you take almost any drama/fate point system you like and bolt it on, without much trouble.

I really like the ideas that are expressed with fate points in BRP. They do represent the spirit of how POW was originally used with Gloranthan RuneQuest (luck/will/fate/attune with the universe). The thinking behind this for BRP is elegant and efficient from both a player and design point of view.

I wanted to use this fate system for a RuneQuest Glorantha-based game. However I realised that in some instances, the "fighters" who don't use magic have a lot more potential to change a story. Or conversely, a mage-type who is souped up (with power crystals, ailed spirits, bound spirits, power staff, and fetch) has a lot of personal POW to practically rewrite an adventure (using non-personal MP for casting spells) compared to other players.

They key thing I can see if that this use of POW represents a CHARACTER's ability to change their world, where as a pure FATE point system as used in games like FATE or Action! System (Action Points) reflects a PLAYERS's ability to change the story. A perhaps subtle yet distinct difference.

Here is a scenario to think about: How would a character who cast spells until his last MP was left (or fainted) be saved by the fate of his long lost friends arriving just in time to save the day (which is the kind of thing some stories consist of)? This does depend on the type of game being played; Simulation or Story Telling (I like a mix of both).

Edited March 12, 2009 by dragonewt

[threedeesix]

Or conversely, a mage-type who is souped up (with power crystals, ailed spirits, bound spirits, power staff, and fetch) has a lot of personal POW to practically rewrite an adventure (Using non-personal MP for magic) compared to the other players.

I know that this isn't tackling your actual question, which I agree with. But I only let players use power points that come from their own person, not items, when using fate points.

Rod

[dragonewt]

I know that this isn't tackling your actual question, which I agree with. But I only let players use power points that come from their own person, not items, when using fate points.

I expressed myself badly. By saying that only MP from crystals (etc...) was used for magic, I meant to imply that all personal power was available for fate points (which is limiting players the same way as you say).

This means that a "tricked up" mage has a potential for a bigger reserve of fate points (if casting POW directly from said crystals and spirits), especially when other non-mage types also use spells (such as "fighters" using the occasional bladesharp).

[threedeesix]

I expressed myself badly. By saying that only MP from crystals (etc...) was used for magic, I meant to imply that all personal power was available for fate points (which is limiting players the same way as you say).

This means that a "tricked up" mage has a potential for a bigger reserve of fate points (if casting POW directly from said crystals and spirits), especially when other non-mage types also use spells (such as "fighters" using the occasional bladesharp).

I get it now.

[Byron Alexander]

This has gotten a bit off-topic but still...

I wanted to use this fate system for a RuneQuest Glorantha-based game. However I realised that in some instances, the "fighters" who don't use magic have a lot more potential to change a story. Or conversely, a mage-type who is souped up (with power crystals, ailed spirits, bound spirits, power staff, and fetch) has a lot of personal POW to practically rewrite an adventure (using non-personal MP for casting spells) compared to other players.

Having just looked over the fate point rules I think that I have no problem with fighters having more 'luck' than magicians or other powered individuals - they use their divine spark to cast spells etc. whereas fighters don't so get a bleeding-out of luck when they need it. As for the souped-up magicians being able to save their personal pp on fate; I still think that if I was playing a magician I'd keep my personal pp in reserve unless I really had to spend them - they're for getting you out of trouble with a capital 'T'. So I don't think it'll actually be a problem in-game, even though it looks like it could be one on paper.

[ORtrail]

No, you're quite right. Bullet pointing rascist headers wouldn't make me happy. I refer to Red Skins as a collective term, and a chapter header. But American Indian, Indian, Amerindian even Native are all incorrect terms. Everyone that lives there comes from somewhere else, so they are not natives, they're not Indians because Columbus thought he was in India.

For the time period you're presenting, "American Indian" and "Indian" were commonly used. Still used today too, even though Columbus got it wrong everyone understands who we are talking about in a western setting. Being true to the setting would mean using these terms, along with the more negative "Red Skins", with some "savages" and "heathens" thrown in for good measure.

"Native" in the sense of being the original inhabitants as compared to the Europeans who came later seems to have been seldom used for the time period we are talking about, unlike today.

Let me say again, I've got no doubt you worked hard to create an exciting and interesting book for BRP, lets just call this constructive criticism.

If you do an expansion or revision for Aces High, please at least think this issue over.

Edited March 12, 2009 by ORtrail