Manors, Estates, or Warlords?

[tenchi2a]

So if I understand it correctly

Book of Manors is the old system which I have used before and was replaced by Book of Estates.

But is Book of Warlords the replacement for Book of Estates or is it an add-on to it?

Either way what what would you recommend I use for my new GPC  that I am about to start.

I have all three and have used Manors before, but outside of a read through on Estates and a quick look at Warlord (mostly use it for NPCs and Coat of Arms) I don't have much experience with the others.

Edited July 25, 2019 by tenchi2a

[Atgxtg]

19 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

So if I understand it correctly

Book of Manors is the old system which I have used before and was replaced by Book of Estates.

Not exactly, but that is how it kinda played out.

BoM was focused on Knights and their holdings and goes into a lot of detail. 

BoE is really geared more towards Estate holders -that is those who have multiple manors than are grouped together into a single patch of land, and it doesn't go into quite as much detail and is easier and faster to use. It also avoids some of the problems that plagued BoM (you ca only fit a finatel number of improvments on a parcel of land in Boe, as opposed to being able to build whatever you had the money for in BoM). So it functions well as a more economically sound, streamlined way for a player knight to handle his manor.

19 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

But is Book of Warlords the replacement for Book of Estates or is it an add-on to it?

More of an add-on, but also a stand alone book in thatit gives details on various landholders who could be the PKs liege lords.

BoW is about land and land management. BoW tells you who holds what, what forces they control, and who their friends and enemies are. Think of it as theBoE sort of tells you how to design an estate, with the BoW giving you examples using the great lords of Britian. So if you want to know more about Count Salisubry's estates, what castles he holds, how many manors he has, how many knights, etc,. as well as similar information on some of his neighbors, you want to see BoW.

19 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Either way what what would you recommend I use for my new GPC  that I am about to start.

I'd recommend using BoE to handle the PKs manors, and possibly add in one or two things from BoM (like a jousting list, which is more for one knight as opposed to the Jousting Arena) to BoE. I'd suggesting pretty much ditching BOM, especially in the early Periods, where a lot of it wouldn't really apply anyway, not work with the current economic model. With BoE it simplifies down to the average PK getting 1 librium to spend during the year.

For a typical campaign, BOW is more of a reference for the GM to give you an idea of the scale of things, the size of armies and how much wealth is out there. There is some stuff for characters who achieve officer positions that could prove useful for players later, but not every PK will become an officer, so it's of limited use-especially at the start.

 

19 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

I have all three and have used Manors before, but outside of a read through on Estates and a quick look at Warlord (mostly use it for NPCs and Coat of Arms) I don't have much experience with the others.

Just take a quick peek at the economic model (Basically it boils down to the PK only seeing about 10 libra out of the manor's total production, and his ending up with about 1 librun to extra to spend during a normal year), and the defenses and improvements (from around page 78) to see what the PKs can do to/with their holding (which comes down to not that much, due to lack of space).

I'd even suggest starting the PKs off as squires or household knights for a year or two before letting them inherent the family manor to give your players time to get a handle on the game system before they have to learn how to run the manor. 

 

 

[tenchi2a]

15 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Not exactly, but that is how it kinda played out.

Not sure how that works but ok

Quote

BoM was focused on Knights and their holdings and goes into a lot of detail. 

BoE is really geared more towards Estate holders -that is those who have multiple manors than are grouped together into a single patch of land, and it doesn't go into quite as much detail and is easier and faster to use. It also avoids some of the problems that plagued BoM (you ca only fit a finatel number of improvments on a parcel of land in Boe, as opposed to being able to build whatever you had the money for in BoM). So it functions well as a more economically sound, streamlined way for a player knight to handle his manor.

BOE seems to try and state it works for early gameplay (10£-100£) BOW claims it works for any level of gameplay(10£+).

So I'm getting some mixed signals here.

Quote

More of an add-on, but also a stand alone book in thatit gives details on various landholders who could be the PKs liege lords.

I was wondering because of  Appendix D : New Economic Model 

It seems to imply that it replaces BOE.

Quote

BoW is about land and land management. BoW tells you who holds what, what forces they control, and who their friends and enemies are. Think of it as theBoE sort of tells you how to design an estate, with the BoW giving you examples using the great lords of Britian. So if you want to know more about Count Salisubry's estates, what castles he holds, how many manors he has, how many knights, etc,. as well as similar information on some of his neighbors, you want to see BoW.

As I said I am familiar with a lot of the book sections, but never gave it a good read other then the sections I needed.

Quote

I'd recommend using BoE to handle the PKs manors, and possibly add in one or two things from BoM (like a jousting list, which is more for one knight as opposed to the Jousting Arena) to BoE. I'd suggesting pretty much ditching BOM, especially in the early Periods, where a lot of it wouldn't really apply anyway, not work with the current economic model. With BoE it simplifies down to the average PK getting 1 librium to spend during the year.

Quote

For a typical campaign, BOW is more of a reference for the GM to give you an idea of the scale of things, the size of armies and how much wealth is out there. There is some stuff for characters who achieve officer positions that could prove useful for players later, but not every PK will become an officer, so it's of limited use-especially at the start.

Same question as above is Appendix D : New Economic Model an add-on to BOE or a replacement?

 

Quote

Just take a quick peek at the economic model (Basically it boils down to the PK only seeing about 10 libra out of the manor's total production, and his ending up with about 1 librun to extra to spend during a normal year), and the defenses and improvements (from around page 78) to see what the PKs can do to/with their holding (which comes down to not that much, due to lack of space).

HI will be taking an in dept look at BOE, but just wanted to make sure I was not wasting my time if it got replaced.

Quote

I'd even suggest starting the PKs off as squires or household knights for a year or two before letting them inherent the family manor to give your players time to get a handle on the game system before they have to learn how to run the manor. 

Shouldn't have issues my player are vets of many much harder systems

Edited July 25, 2019 by tenchi2a

[Atgxtg]

3 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Not sure how that works but ok

Okay, I'll try to explain it better.

BoM was designed to let a PK run his manor in great detail, make a lot of improvements and addtions to thier manor, but it was very time consuming and was flawed in that there were no limits to the number of improvements that could be built.  THuis could lead to things getting out of control with a rich PK being able to start a perpetual cycle of old improvements paying the cost to build new ones, etc.etc.

BOE was designed to simply and easily allow land owners with estates (lots of manors) to be able to quickly and easily manage all of their holdings. SO it is a little less detailed than BOM, but a LOT easier and faster to use, plus it add in limits that eliminate the potential problems that existed in BoM. So BOE makes for a nice, quick way alternative to BOM that sacrifices a little detail for ease of use, speed, and better functionality. Plus BOE uses a newer, better, ecominic model that has a better foundation.

 

3 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

I was wondering because of  Appendix D : New Economic Model 

It seems to imply that it replaces BOE.

Slight adjustment and clarification. But check to see which editions you have. I believe BoE was edited later to make it fit with the changes brought about in BoW, so fi you have the latest versions the two models should be the same. If not there are some realtively minor differences that won't ususally matter in play anyway..

Mostly it boils down to a knight having some servants, and a court, for whom there is now some more, hidden income, plus some foot soldiers (one of whom is off serving the king). It's really more a case of explain who takes care of the horses, or keeps the records of the court cases and such. 

 

3 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

As I said I am familiar with a lot of the book sections, but never gave it a good read other then the sections I needed.

Same question as above is Appendix D : New Economic Model an add-on to BOE or a replacement?

Same answe as above.

3 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

 

HI will be taking an in dept look at BOE, but just wanted to make sure I was not wasting my time if it got replaced.

Shouldn't have issues my player are vets of many much harder systems

Ease of system isn't the same as familiarity with system. In fact it can sometimes make things worse. Pendragon is fairly easy to grasp, mechanically, but a bit trickier to understand as far various nuances and such. For example the game mechanics behind rolling for inspiration are easy to understand. Knowing if you should do so and when, plus the ramifications of doing so is another story. I'd suggest focusing on stuff like trait rolls, social situations, basic skill rolls, opposed rolls, combat tactics and so on in the first couple of sessions, and if you cover land at all just give them the 1 Librium to spend. You can worry about building walls and other defenses later on, as well as what improvements and investment (it's typically down to one) to make. 

It can be very easy to do something in Pendragon that looks like a good idea, but really messes a character up if someone ins't familr with the game. Some tactics from other RPGs just don't work out in Pendragon, and vice versa. 

[tenchi2a]

8 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Okay, I'll try to explain it better.

BoM was designed to let a PK run his manor in great detail, make a lot of improvements and addtions to thier manor, but it was very time consuming and was flawed in that there were no limits to the number of improvements that could be built.  THuis could lead to things getting out of control with a rich PK being able to start a perpetual cycle of old improvements paying the cost to build new ones, etc.etc.

Quote

BOE was designed to simply and easily allow land owners with estates (lots of manors) to be able to quickly and easily manage all of their holdings. SO it is a little less detailed than BOM, but a LOT easier and faster to use, plus it add in limits that eliminate the potential problems that existed in BoM. So BOE makes for a nice, quick way alternative to BOM that sacrifices a little detail for ease of use, speed, and better functionality. Plus BOE uses a newer, better, ecominic model that has a better foundation.

Cool makes sense.

 

Quote

Slight adjustment and clarification. But check to see which editions you have. I believe BoE was edited later to make it fit with the changes brought about in BoW, so fi you have the latest versions the two models should be the same. If not there are some realtively minor differences that won't ususally matter in play anyway..

Both my editions are the newest versions from what I can find. BOE Version 1.3.2 and BOW Version 1.2. 

And while we have been talking, I checked both book and have found some differences in just a quick look.

Such as BOE not allowing for variation in cash flow for being childless where BOW increases Discretionary Fund +1.

So I'm not sure that they are the same?

Quote

Mostly it boils down to a knight having some servants, and a court, for whom there is now some more, hidden income, plus some foot soldiers (one of whom is off serving the king). It's really more a case of explain who takes care of the horses, or keeps the records of the court cases and such. 

Sure I can see that

From what I gather most improvements to land and income in BOE/BOW boil down to spoils and land grants and not improvements. 

Quote

Ease of system isn't the same as familiarity with system. In fact it can sometimes make things worse. Pendragon is fairly easy to grasp, mechanically, but a bit trickier to understand as far various nuances and such. For example the game mechanics behind rolling for inspiration are easy to understand. Knowing if you should do so and when, plus the ramifications of doing so is another story. I'd suggest focusing on stuff like trait rolls, social situations, basic skill rolls, opposed rolls, combat tactics and so on in the first couple of sessions, and if you cover land at all just give them the 1 Librium to spend. You can worry about building walls and other defenses later on, as well as what improvements and investment (it's typically down to one) to make. 

Quote

It can be very easy to do something in Pendragon that looks like a good idea, but really messes a character up if someone ins't familr with the game. Some tactics from other RPGs just don't work out in Pendragon, and vice versa. 

Most of my players are familiar with it either owning the books or having played before.

An I have both GM it before and played in a few campaigned in 3rd editions, so this will be my first time in this running in 5th.

Thus the questions. 

[Morien]

9 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

BOE seems to try and state it works for early gameplay (10£-100£) BOW claims it works for any level of gameplay(10£+).

 

8 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

Such as BOE not allowing for variation in cash flow for being childless where BOW increases Discretionary Fund +1.

It is the same system.

BOE, p.36: Family: The amount spent on the lord’s family, typically 10% of Demesne Customary Revenue. Of this, £1 is spent on the children, while the rest is spent on upgrading the whole family’s Standard of Living (see below).

Also, read the Unmarried Lords on the same page: "If he is also childless, he can save about 50% of the Family Expense (round up to a full librum)."

Just because BOW appendix was more explicit doesn't make it a different system.

How do I know? I was the one who came up with that system, applied it to BOW, wrote that appendix and then revised BOE.

The New Economics works for any level of gameplay. That was the whole design purpose, so that it would scale to any situation, rather than be an ad hoc 'these numbers feel nice today' system that the earlier version of BOE was (which also contradicted earlier examples of knightly standard of living).

Since it is the same system, it doesn't matter as such which book (BOE or BOW) you use.

However, both books are scaled differently in details, for instance when it is talking about the effects of losing lots to raids and such. The assumption in BOW is that we are talking about Barons with £100+ lands, meaning that their standard of living is at least £15, and probably closer to £35 (£300 lands). By contrast, the assumption in BOE is that we are talking about a £50 estate, so the standard of living is £10. However, in both cases, the lot damage and its effect on the ruling family is a simplification for convenience in gameplay.

Ditch BOM. It is obsolete and very much unbalanced.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Morien

[tenchi2a]

On 7/25/2019 at 4:40 PM, Morien said:

 

It is the same system.

BOE, p.36: Family: The amount spent on the lord’s family, typically 10% of Demesne Customary Revenue. Of this, £1 is spent on the children, while the rest is spent on upgrading the whole family’s Standard of Living (see below).

Also, read the Unmarried Lords on the same page: "If he is also childless, he can save about 50% of the Family Expense (round up to a full librum)."

Just because BOW appendix was more explicit doesn't make it a different system.

How do I know? I was the one who came up with that system, applied it to BOW, wrote that appendix and then revised BOE.

The New Economics works for any level of gameplay. That was the whole design purpose, so that it would scale to any situation, rather than be an ad hoc 'these numbers feel nice today' system that the earlier version of BOE was (which also contradicted earlier examples of knightly standard of living).

Since it is the same system, it doesn't matter as such which book (BOE or BOW) you use.

However, both books are scaled differently in details, for instance when it is talking about the effects of losing lots to raids and such. The assumption in BOW is that we are talking about Barons with £100+ lands, meaning that their standard of living is at least £15, and probably closer to £35 (£300 lands). By contrast, the assumption in BOE is that we are talking about a £50 estate, so the standard of living is £10. However, in both cases, the lot damage and its effect on the ruling family is a simplification for convenience in gameplay.

Ditch BOM. It is obsolete and very much unbalanced.

Thank you for your great work on these supplements and for the insight into there use. 😎

I was not planning on using BOM because it appeared to be obsolete, but thank you for confirming it. 😀