bronze

Of all deities, they should oppose the Chaos the most. Are they secretly in league with the Chaos? 

How could Yelm accept the Red Goddess as his daughter? Isn't Chaos the ultimate rebellions against cosmic order? 

It seems only the air gods are gaining power from others. 

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Orlanth is the greatest of the storm gods, inheritor of most of Umath's power, and owner of the Air rune. He proved that in the godtime through his strength, overcoming the air gods that fought against him and earning the loyalty of those who didn't. Lightning Boy and Heler were originally enemies from different families, but after their defeat they became his friends, and afaik he's the only one who can call on them for rain and lightning. Valind, and Vadrus' other kids, he overcame and forced to submit.

Does that mean Umath has power over rain and lightening, too? 

It seems their characters, and even policies, are very different from each others. 

16 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Those powers are generally associated with Air/Storm, yes, but not all air gods have the same level of influence over it. Orlanth is the primary weather god (or even just the weather itself), and can influence most kinds of wind, precipitation, thunder, lighting, etc. Some of these powers are technically held by other gods, like Heler (rain) and Lightning Boy (lightning), but Orlanth commands when and where they fall. As for his relatives, they're only associated with smaller parts of the atmosphere. Storm Bull is the god of the desert wind, Gagarth is the god of whirlwinds, Valind is the north wind, Inora is the goddess of snow, Molanni/Entekos/Brastalos is the goddess of still air, Daga is the god of drought, and Kolat is the great spirit of all winds. Orlanth can command all of them at need.

Have wondered Orlanth has taken these powers from other gods, or held immanent power over them.

On 10/22/2023 at 1:18 AM, soltakss said:

Why bother? Kralorela was perfect in the Golden Age and the Emperors have been trying to make it perfect again. The rest of Glorantha can continue to wallow in its filth and impurity for all they care. Kralorela helped the EWF in the Second Age and look what happened then, they learned that lesson.

Didn't the False Dragon Ring teach the EWF and benefitted from it? 

On 10/22/2023 at 1:18 AM, soltakss said:

Void is nothingness, emptiness, the loss of existence.

Chaos is corruption, destruction, the loss of everything.

So, they are very different.

Some people want to return Glorantha to Primal Chaos, which is the state of not being, and identify that as the Void. However, the Void is not simply Primal Chaos, for Primal Chaos is something, and the Void is nothing.

If Void and Chaos are different, where the Dragons are coming and going? 

On 10/22/2023 at 4:34 AM, Joerg said:

Many of these original inhabitants were deities, genii locorum, or their mortal offspring.

Personally, I think that the claim that the dronar population of Brithela is descended from Malkion the way the three minority castes are is a bit weak. 

Revealed Mythologies p.25 has a summary of Greg's early world building for the Gloranthan west. It clearly marks the Vadeli (of the three colors brown, red and blue) as the indigenous humans of Brithela, and claims that the Malkioni are the result of Malkion (aka Engr) mating with a series of (local divinity) wives.

 

I am spouting a lot of "In My Glorantha" nonsense below, which does make a certain sense to me. Read at your own risk.

These people descended from Malkion would have become the Logicians, the people of the Kingdom of Logic..

  Reveal hidden contents

The Monomyth has a core mythic cycle about humanity in Glorantha, the four tribes of the Mountain People founding the Four Camps in the cardinal directions.

There seems to be some universal truth to this mythic cycle, as the Black Camp of Introspection figures greatly with the development of the Gates of Dusk and the path of mortality into the West, and the Camp of Innocence features in the arrival myth of the Veldang in southern Pamaltela. The four directional kingdoms of the Golden Age are based off these camps, too.

The Mountain Men would have been the humanist ideal of Man Rune humans without much interference by deities handling mud, fire and other stuff to construct humans, a race of deities doomed by the actions of Grandfather Mortal but some exceptions holding on to the original purity - the Agi or Agitorani of Pamaltela who did not drink, or the Brithini slavishly adhering to a caste system's doctrine without change to maintain agelessness. If so, the Vadeli may have been a form of these original humans, and demigod races like the Luatha or the Altinae too

IMO the majority of the indigenes of Brithela other than the Vadeli were the Dromali, dark-skinned children of Kala, given "Founders" by Malkion. They were the people of the soil, farmers, but also builders - a human culture of early agriculturalists and earth (ancestor) worshipers.

King Drona, accompanied by Bakan the boar, and aided by Eurmal Friend of Men (and later Eurmal's son Yomat) left Brithela as the Logicians took the reign and spread his form of agriculture into the Hykimi lands of Fronela and Ralios (long before the Nidan range of mountains was raised). Drona may have been a son of Malkion and Kala, if not first-born then highest-born of the Dronari, and thus a king of the farmers when left alone by his half-brothers (Talar, Zzabur, Horal) born to Tilnta.

The majority of the Logicians claim descent from Tilnta, the favored wife of Malkion who gave him many sets of male and female twin children, each pair becoming a married couple founding a dynasty. (This seems to be a typical start of a royal dynasty born of human and goddess - other such couples include Ylream and his sister Nebrola whose child became the second Serpent King of Fronela, or the twin children of Arim the Pauper and Sorana Tor founding the Twins dynasty of Tarsh. The founders of the Caladra&Aurelion cult used the same precedence.) They became the core of the Logician culture while being a small minority in terms of population compared to the vast majority of Dronar caste farmers and workers.

The mothers of the six tribal founders of Danmalastan are left unclear, except in the case of Waertag, whose mother was a kinswoman of Warera, a Triolina tied to the Wartain tribe from which the Ludoch seem to have descended (even though nowadays the Neliomi waters don't have any Ludoch any more, but instead have a few types of Ouori).

The story of Viymorn (who became the ancestor of the Vadeli royalty) is described separately from that of the other Founders, in the Stafford Library book Middle Sea Empire, also telling a history of Godtime Jrustela. In his case, we know that he founded three groups of descendants -

• demigod births (including Vadel) called The Seekers,
• Made Humans (the clay etc. method) to populate his lands,

  (all names not mentioned in any other text I have ever seen).

• and allegorical third set of cardinal directions 

  (Middle Sea Empire p.6, which would make Vimorn himself South.)

But TLDR: IMO there were a couple of chthonic peoples (claiming descent from local land goddesses like Vadela or Kala) in the West when the six tribes of nobility fathered by Malkion developed their philosophical/Logician specialities while upheld by the labor provided by the Chthonic class of Dronars, and apparently against the will of the children of Vadela except for Vimorn whose son Vadel became the founder of the Vadeli with his explpratory journeys outside of Danmalastan.

 

Yes, but not necessarily in the same way as the Vadeli and Kachasti who happened to inhabit the inner border regions to the northern and southern triangles/continent.

Basically, we have the northern expansion of the Kachasti that is known by the euphemism "Speaking Tour". They enter the same Hykimi lands previously colonized by King Frona, and might have gone there with the intention to make these escapees from the Logician oversight return to their fold. For a while, they succeeded, seeding the lands of Fronela, Ralios, and possibly Maniria with their Speakers among the Hykimi, and possibly bringing in Kadeniti city planners to provide the Hykimi with ancestral temple cities in the style of Göbekli Tepe.

Their presence may have been similar to that of the Trader Princes in post-God Learner Maniria unt.il they got involved in the Vadeli War.

 

The Kadeniti were the tribe of architects and civic engineers. They created the Perfect City, and then spread out to other Logician lands (and the Kachasti lands) to seed the perfect Logician cities enabling social order and maximized channeling of magical power to the sorcerers (or to the temples to the ancestral entities). So Kadeniti do expand, but only as enablers of the other tribes, not bringing their own domination but providing their infrastructure.

And Tadeniti record-keeping pervades all the Logician activities, too, in a similar way.

The Enrovalini - Zzabur's folk who own the island of Brithos - are the ones who don't do much of anything (but cogitating), which might be the most Logician activity, but also the least active behavior. Do they spread out? Well, there is Arolanit, the Rational land, and there is Sog City, both on the far side of the Neliomi Sea. Do they do anything there? Not really. Do they spread to God Forgot? No idea. 

 

IMO the technology was one of the causes of the differences between Vadel and Zzabur becoming a war.

Zzabur does similar bad things to the couple Horal and Menena, but gets thwarted there. The emigration of King Drona may fall into this, too.

The Vadeli were vilified and demonized by Zzabur (while providing him with his stationery of living hide), and at some point they embraced that identification, and embraced it for the power it gave them, a power that allowed them to overthrow the Logicians by subverting its virtues.

I cannot say anything about the immortality of any Danmalastan natives other than the Enrovalini descendants on Brithos and their Tilnta-born nobility born outside of those tribes. The Brithini immortality derives to a large extent from expelling Malkion as he is on the brink of accepting Mortality in the Fifth Action.

That Fifth Aciton might be a thing that might have gone painless and hopeful except that it was sabotaged, not just by Zzabur but possibly by the Vadeli and other forces as well, the latter potentially including the Westfaring Lightbringers.

 

Demonizing and then sabotaging foes is a cheap trick played by Zzabur again and again. There are a few times when it misfires, but otherwise it has served him very well.

Vadel was on to Zzabur's duplicity - he was an accomplice in tricking the Mostali out of the Energy Matrix artifact which the Logicians mass-produced in the lesser (bronze) edition from the original (iron) device. Expecting the same from Zzabur, Vadel offered the Mostali to catch Zzabur with his own tricks (while profiteering again), and the Mostali agreed to go after the bigger target, keeping Vadel and his folk as useful if unreliable accomplices.

When Zzabur declared some of the actions of Vadel as anathema - including the expeditions to Bamatela which he himself had sponsored - and (as far as I understand the story) flensed Vadel and his brown and red co-noble of the Vadeli for his books, there was little to top the insult against the Vadeli. The Vadeli then went all out to prove the absurdity of Zzabur's interpretation of Malkion's rules by obeying them in the most contrary manner and still benefitting from the caste benefits.

 

The Logicians were a bunch of supremacists. Possibly the worst kind, incorporating all the vile -isms and claiming something along the lines of manifest destination. The Malkioni mortals of the west are those who followed Malkion out of that supremacist trap into milder forms, dissidents against Zzabur, making his magic-gathering engine/society less effective, which led to the successive excision of all dissidents and polluted if doctrinally sound individuals (pushing the latter to Arolanit, it seems).

Malkioni societies can be pretty awful towards non-Malkioni, and possibly worse to dissident Malkioni. There are three power groups inside the Malkioni who grab the power - the sorcerers following Zzabur's books of supremacy, the talars with their inherited ability to order the zzabur caste about despite being their servants, and the military with the men-of-all movement by Hrestol undoing all the great taming success the sorcerers had over the soldier caste, making them obedient followers of talars and zzaburi, only to be replaced by the super-caste of the men-of-all who inherited the military power and some sorcerous insight while recruiting a majority of the ruling talars to their way of doing things

To some extent I agree with Rokar's criticism of the men-of-all involvement in the ruling of the realm, but the pyramid scheme putting the sorcerers back as the main recipients of society's benefits that is Rokarism strikes me as a pernicious fallacy repeating the God Learner mistakes rather than counteracting them as professed.

 

Sorry about the rambling and referencing of (essentially) unpublished old Western material. This is what has shaped my impression and my deductions.

I hope to reply on your discussions in due time. 

Do the air gods possess inherent power over rain and lightening, respectively domains of water and sky deities? 

How many Lunar Immortals do exist, and how many of them are known to us? Is there any information on them? 

Are there any known Lunar Heroes who partook in the Battle of the Castle Blue aside from the future Red Emperor and Great Sister? 

Do we know anything about Egi?

Hoping upcoming Lunar book covers at least some of them, however unlikely the prospect is. 

Why there are so few Lunar Heroes during the Hero War? The Red Emperor, Jar-eel, and any else? 

Are there any known human Blue Moon heroes after the Time? 

Why the Tapping is deemed immoral? Tapping sapient creatures might be considered immoral, especially if they are humans. But why tapping spirits or inanimate objects has to be bad? Abuse of tapping could cause environmental detorioration and ecosystem collapse as the Vadeli did on their territories, for sure, but it dosen't explain why the very practice is condemned to be immoral, even abominable. Modern world generally does not condemn regulated exploitation of the natural world to be immoral, and the ancient world had no notions of animal rights or ecosystem preservation. 

It is said he wanders the world incognito. If that is not a metaphor, don't such acts breach compromise? Donandar is not some obscure minor god or spirit, but the high god of music and entertainment, immensely popular among diverse array of peoples. 
 

A few questions on Sorcery. 

Is the Sorcery the most difficult to learn, but potentially the most flexible and powerful magic system?

Are Sorceries practiced in the East and Fonrit indigenous, or spread by the God Learners? As a formal territory of the Artmali and Vadeli empires, Fonrit might have always practiced a branch of Sorcery, but how the Sorcery has come into its own in the East? Do the East Isles practice Sorcery, too? 

Earth Priestess narration sounds unusually hostile to Sorcery. It makes a stark contrast to the condescending remarks on other cults, and the voice on the Chaos is remarkably subdued. Is some kind of coping mechanism?

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Vadeli feature as barbarian indigenes of Brithela (and even Brithos) in Greg's early stories. The later story about the Viymorni becoming the Vadeli may be as true.

Wondering how kind was fate to the original inhabitants of Danmalastan outside of the six tribes. Are they mostly exterminated or enslaved? 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

All of the Malkioni people became coastal with the second advance of the Seas (the Flood Age of the early Lesser Darkness as per the Mythology book).

Of the six tribes of Danmalastan, the Tadeniti were the scribes, the Kadeniti the city builders and the Enrovalini the philosophers. None of these inclinations set them wandering, although the Vadeli (and Mostali) conquests sent them fleeing as refugees.

The Tadeniti were the first to fall. Probably for a good reason, as they would be the ones who invented the flensing techniques that Zzabur employed to create his Vadeli-skinned books of knowledge and magic. Seeing their kin or ancestors being abused as book bindings, the Vadeli may have had good cause to attack the isolated Tadeniti with Mostali aid. While Tadeniti managed to flee to the Danmalastan mainland, their home island was overrun, and the enslaved or undead bodies of the Tadeniti served as workers for the Mostali as payment for their aid to the Vadeli.

Emboldened by this success and their endeavors in Pamaltela, the Vadeli started their slave empire, vastly expanding their productivity as opposed to their slow-breeding immortal rivals. While they suffered setbacks like their initial assault on the Kachasti, again with Mostali assistance they staged a coup against the Kachasti domain in Fronela, Ralios and Seshnela, separating their realm by letting the Mostali raise the Nidan range between Tinsnip Mountain and Top of the World while tricking their PoW caretakers into spending all their magic for keeping the captives alive.

This left the Danmalastan mainland as their last Logician foe, which then was overrun by the Double Belligerent Assault which killed the Logician leader Talar alongside his heir, leaving an infant successor at the mercy of his advisors as the defender of the realm. Other than the island of Brithos, the Logician lands fell under the Vadeli, who then began a siege on the last bastion of their old foe Zzabur, reckoning that nobody would be evil enough to destroy their own world just for revenge. They were proven wrong.

But sedentary peoples have expanded out from their homeland throughout history. 

Did the Tadeniti invent flensing technique after the onset of Vadeli war? 

How immortal are the Vadeli compared to their kins? It seems they partially relinquished their immortality for fertility and propagation. For instance, it is said the Vadeli need to eat their own children to maintain their accused immortality. 

The overall tone sounds as if you see Vadeli as much victims as perpetrators. Wondering you consider the Vadeli have been demonized by propaganda stories disseminated by their foes. 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I actually expect less so. The East is closely tied to a blending of the Solar and Draconic myths. Vith, the ruler of the East, is Aether. The Kralorelan Emperors are initially solar emperors, and then draconic emperors (or perhaps they are always the Sun Dragon Emperor?). There are conflicts with the Hsunchen, but they are in many ways a lesser derivation of the draconic story representing the rise of the beast-man (or man-beast?) which ultimately leads to the man-dragon. The Seas and Chaos (the anti-gods) of course play significant roles, and of course, Darkness leads to some strange developments in the Kingdom of Ignorance (the Black Sun, the Blood Sun, the Solar Storm, etc.). The last might lead to some interesting revelations we have yet to see, but I don't think overall there will be as many changes as with the West (probably because the latter got dragged into a medieval/saint/knight viewpoint for a considerable period which the East never did).

But brozne age China is far more interesting than the current krarolena... 

29 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yes, this.

But also:  maybe instead there really was one singular victor to emerge... but if so, it is objectively impossible to be sure which one.

One great and terrible Schrödinger's box that we still haven't opened.

Yes, that is legitimately terrifying...

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

• For present purposes, the Devil is not to be thought of as Cosmos or of Cosmos — think of the Devil as the empty set (i.e. {} or ∅), and if you are an atheist, think of the IG as the universal set. (There are other tales to be told of the Devil in which it is — or is stitched right through — the world of Time, but at least some Westerners will reject them. Although the set-theoretical sorcerers will smirk at this confident rejection.)
   
• For present purposes, think of the IG and the Devil as uncontactable — you cannot communicate with them, and you get sorcerous powers by understanding Cosmos, not begging favours from it or its owner or agent; IIRC, Jeff has it that the big guns of Chaos (the Devil candidates) — Ragnaglar, Kajabor, & Wakboth — are dead or uncontactable “at the moment;” IMHO, there are good reasons why this should be the case.
   
• Reflective and wise monotheists won’t play “my dad is bigger than your dad” with the polytheists — the correct way to place yourself in the hands of the IG is to shift for yourself (don’t pray and wait, put the hours in at the lab; don’t clasp your hands in prayer, grab the steering wheel), then when you succeed, you humbly acknowledge that it was the IG’s will (and the same if you fail, but it is up to you to try).

This is not a lecture on Malkioni orthodoxy, and the polytheists will scoff at it, but if you think of the IG as the god of the philosophers — the ones that haven’t taken the Journey to the East, at least — you won’t go far wrong. Gloranthas can and should vary — in this, as in all else.

Thank you so much for elucidation. I wonder how Westerners rationalize and explain precedence of mystery over law and reason. Why the God of Law and Reason would have allowed such blasphemy? Wouldn't it present a dilemma? The Westerners have been compared with the ancient Greek and Indian logicians. They are rational philosophers thrown into a world of myth and magic. The ideal world for the Humanists will be our Earth, and Glorantha is their worst nightmare manifested.

On 10/20/2023 at 6:50 AM, jajagappa said:

Not just a greater Nest, but also a Dragon Emperor (i.e. the Emperor Godunya is also a True Dragon).

Some relevant notes here: Dragon People – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

The primal stuff of Creation.

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, there were two Draconic centres in GodTime, Dragon Pass and Kralorela. They were equally as important. The Dragonewts of Dragon Pass had Inhuman Kings as their ruler, or end state, before the Inhuman King turned into a Dragon. The Dragonewts of Kralorela had the Dragon Emperor as their leader and their Rulers turned into Dragons without reaching the Inhuman King state.

Nothingness, the Emptiness, the lack of everything, the Unknowable.

Wondering why Kralorela has never managed to establish a world empire. After all, Orlanthi achieved it with much less. Is it due to development of Wyrmtongue? 

It is said the Void and Chaos refer to distinct concepts, but it is difficult to specify how they differ from each other. 

18 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

That’s an efficient way to tell us you haven’t read “King of Sartar”…

Um... how you have reached such conclusion? Can't say having the book in head, but I think having given a fairly thorough reading on the Argarth's Saga.

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Moonfall is a catastrophe. Sure, the Red Goddess is torn from the sky, but she is still there as a Goddess and can still be reached. The Lunar Empire is no more and a vast Void is there where the Red Moon was, that cannot be a good thing. Without the Lunars to guard them, horrors crawl from the Crater and spread across Peloria. Monsters kept in check by the Lunar Empire, or given a safe place to live in, expand and are no longer constrained. The leaders of the Monster Empire are dead, so cannot hold back their monsters any more.

Have a look at King of Sartar. There are centuries of horrors. The seas flood the lands and then go away. Trolls are made extinct, except for a few in the ruins of Cragspider's Castle. There are a whole load of things listed, all as a direct result of Argrath's actions.

In fact, Argrath has to go on a Second Lightbringer Quest to try and fix what he did in the first place. It was then that his Trickster traps the Deities in Arachne Solara's net and Wakboth kills them all.

That is largely corresponding to how I know the events. Perhaps I have missed some important things to note? 

18 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Why do you think he's unreliable? Frankly I don't think he takes much more credit than others like Orlanth or Yelm do, he's just a bit more arrogant about it.

How Orlanth and Yelm have taken credit from others? 

On 10/20/2023 at 5:53 AM, Richard S. said:

Do be warned though that the Stafford Library is essentially just collections of worldbuilding notes, not all of which agree and not all of which are still true. King of Sartar is by far the most useful one.

I'd also recommend looking at least at the Sourcebook, if not the Guide. They're mostly about more mundane stuff and the third age, but knowing the mundane here and now of the world provides helpful context for the deeper stuff.

The cults books so far have made sure to point out how the gods are seen in places outside of dragon pass, especially for the earth deities in the south, and I expect the solar book will have a decent amount on the east once it comes out. For the most part their major myths remain the same, but maybe with some new names and associations. The deep lore for those places is mostly in Stafford Library VI: Revealed Mythologies, and the Prosopaedia has a lot of interesting tidbits to sort through.

Having read Sourcebook, and given a cursory look to the Sartar and Guide. Having some Library books, but the information contained in them are simply overwhelming 😓
 

On 10/20/2023 at 6:22 AM, jajagappa said:

For Invisible God, also have a look at Nick Brooke's JC work A History of Malkionism

I'd also refer you to Jeff Richard's FB posts on the Invisible God, Malkionism, and the west in general which you can search for at the Well of Daliath: Search Results for “jeff richard invisible god” – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com) - particularly anything from 2020 or later as this reflects current thoughts and notes that we'll likely see in eventual Invisible God Cults book.

The Solar Cults book will likely expand on some of the Eastern mythos, but I suspect it will be less fully covered. However look at these entries in the Well of Daliath: Search Results for “jeff richard kralorela” – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Pamaltela is a larger unknown. The Cults book on Spirit and Hsunchen Cults could have further insights, but for now the Mythology book and the Pamalt cult in the Earth Goddesses, along with Revealed Mythology are likely your best sources. 

Having read many of the articles on the West and the East. They are very thoughtful and interesting. Still, a thousand thousand thanks for the recommendations! 
It seems the West lore has undergone remarkable evolutions. Wondering the East will experience similar blossoming in the future. 

Has Nysalor always been Gbaji, or cursed to be Gbaji by Arkat? Are both Arkat and Nysalor Gbaji? Neither? Is Gbaji a disparate entity from its host, or they are inseparable? Is Gabji objectively real, or is it a product of conflicting interpretation? It is really confusing, and it seems as if every scholar harbours their own theories and interpretations on the subject. 

It is said that Theyalan Calender was spread across the world by the God Learners, and the West had already adopted the Theyalan Calender in favor of the traditional Brithini Calender in the First Age. Only the East is tenaciously holding onto their conventional system. Does the Theyalan Calender have advantages over other competing systems? 

It is said that because the East Isles are too holy to be defiled by the Chaos, and the Chaos could never set a foot on them. But it raises another question. How and why only the East Isles could have remained so pure and unpolluted.

The large portion of the East Isles has eventually been invaded and conquered by the God Learners, but Vormain has remained unscathed. The archipelago has never experianced outside influences and maintained independence even at the height of powers of the God Learners and Golden Mokato, though it is said at some points they sent tributes to Kralorela. Wondering such exceptional sovereignty is owing to protection of their gods, or something else. 

Genert is God of the North, Palmalt is God of the South, Vith is God of the East. That leaves an unfilled slot. Who could possibly be the Directional God of the West?

39 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

You also could have said that in ONE word: 
Boring

IMO, even more boring than that. Because Glorantha is so smaller than Earth, can't expect to develop sheer diversity found in Earth's cultures. Nor there is room for space exploration and development. The best can be hoped is colonization of planets and moons on the Sky Dome, whose diamaters are meausred in tens of kilometers at most. Really, the "space travel" won't be different from envisioned by ancient Greek and Romans.