Mao

13 hours ago, scott-martin said:

 

 Deezola starts as a "queen," whatever that means, feathered or otherwise. She only becomes important when she sacrifices all that identity apparatus in order to face existential crisis head on . . . children and orphans think of her as the nice lady with the crown, the rest of us understand that just as the king must die in the NavErian system (so controversial across the continental earth complex) even the queen needs to learn that she too is very mortal. The wheel turns from privilege to martyrdom. This is her liberation, her glory and her transcendent experience.

 

Oooh I really like that. Having read Campbell I (think I know, do tell me if I'm wrong! I'm basically a baby when it comes to the inner workings of the fandom) think I know where Greg got the 'sacrificial king' stuff from since Campbell was HUGE into it in Masks of God. So it's really neat to think of Deezola as a spin on that, where the more standard mode of king sacrifice seems to be in place in some of the deeper parts of the Earth Goddess mytho-complex. At least it seemed fairly standard last I checked but it's been a while.

Anyway my point is I think that's a neat idea and thank you for sharing 🙂

21 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

snip

*really cool assyrian lion hunting frieze*

Oh yeah those wall friezes are crazy, I've gotten to see them at the British Museum a few times. Insane levels of hunting and desire to demonstrate strength through gratuitous lion murder.
Yeah! I really like the idea of a bored Yelm noble wanting to enact parts of the young Yelm myth. He wants his own Burburstus to crush but alas his estates are just too damn peaceful! The Lunars are doing too good a job of surpressing any problems. Hunting the local wildlife just isn't cutting it for him anymore.
You could go a number of directions with this, does his overworked advisor contact the PCs to smuggle some interesting monster onto the estate that the noble gets to hunt? Does disaster strike the Satrapy and the noble genuinely rises to the occasion and goes out to defeat a monster? Are the PCs dressed up as trolls (or magicked into looking like them...) and used as game?

Though as funny as it is to imagine the ridiculous situation Yelmic nobles find themselves in in the Third Era and the many stressed individuals trying to please them, I do like the idea of a Yelmic trying to genuinely be like Yelm in his good aspects instead of just a figurehead. Like the (spoiler for Pegasus Plateau)

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are the broos harming someone's economic or magical interests? Then this someone may attempt to find a solution by appealing ot the local or provincial authority.

If the broos pay their taxes (directly or in the employ of a local magnate) and keep their activites focussed on targets the local magnate approves, they would be allowed to go on with their lives.

If they harrass tax-paying subjects and reduce tax income, the local powers who collect that tax will intervene. Possibly hunt them down, possibly employ them.

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Are they Lunar broos or Chaos worshipping broos?

Are they up to no good (murder pillage, disease spreading) or are they on their way somewhere, maybe to pay a visit to the local Seven Mothers temple?

They may already be members

If he's the right kind of officer, no. If the wrong kind, yes.

He doesn't care. If he finds out that means someone isn't doing their job.

If they are doing bad things, normal procedure would be followed (as bandits etc)

Thanks all, this is what I was wondering about. And yes the assumption was they were bad broo that were harming standard operation of the region (to put it mildly). Because kind of like OP I was wondering at what point does Lunar 'toleration' of Chaos cease and the Law start having to be enforced. Because I was wondering if the apparatus that keeps things running in the Empire is the bureacracy, and a lot of that bureacracy are made up of Yelmic nobles towards the top, but a lot of those are illuminated and more focused on dart-wars and power struggles... how do the Yelmics actually contribute to the running of the Empire? I mean I want to see it because I kind of like Yelm, hence I imagined Yelmics throwing Sunspears at problems to the citizens of the Empire. But maybe that's not how it actually works in practice, or if things have come to that point something has gone REALLY WRONG.
Really curious about what non-combat magic Yelm Imperator Initiates/Priests/Rune Lords get that functionally and actually contributes to the Empire. Can they command other Solar Cults to do what they want? Is it sheer charisma, glowing radiant warmth and the light of justice emanating from them? Is it the threat of a Sunspear falling on your head? All of the above plus training in skills that make you really good at being an overseer?
I get in practice most of the nuts and bolts running of the empire probably falls on the shoulders of overworked Irripi Ontor scribes writing missives to each other and filing tax reports, and when someone fails to pay taxes a talk is had about if they should dispatch a Army squad or a Tax Demon depending on the severity of taxes owed and who owes them.

5 minutes ago, EricW said:

I love it - definitely a worthy NPC with which to taunt PCs, even funnier if he is really nice.

And if the PCs attack, the attack bounces off the Broo's chaotic 12pt armour, and the tax collector calmly explains that attacking a tax collector is a serious crime, but that by the grace of the Goddess he will overlook their offence if they take this as an opportunity to become better people by disavowing their barbaric prejudices. 

I can already imagine him launching into a speech about all the nice things the Lunar taxes pay for, admitting some degree of waste in the system by the occasional greedy Satrap, but still holding up the Teelo Norri Poor Fund as a sterling example of the Lunar's civilizing ways.

21 minutes ago, Eff said:

I'm not sure why any of the options you've presented would be pursued.

Because Broos running around your Satrapy is a bad thing. The Lunar Empire might be cool with Chaos but only when it's controlled and not a threat to it's own people.

Quote

By its faith, the Lunar Empire must accept Chaos and
make use of it as necessary. The Crimson Bat is an example of
how this can be done, as may be the vampire regiment rumored
to be training in the mountains of Peloria. Yet many Lunar
heroes gained fame by killing Vivamort cultists or smashing
the slave heads of Thanatar. The awareness of the educated
or sensitive concerning the proximity of Chaos makes them
acutely aware of their dire responsibilities. The teachings of the
Red Goddess, though passionate and fierce, strongly admonish
against certain temptations.

p. 132 of Cults of Runequest: The Lunar Way

My thinking is any Chaotic inside the Empire that doesn't quickly find a way to be of use to the Red Emperor and the Goddess will be dealt with harshly. Options 1, 1.5 and 2 deal with taking the Chaos under the auspice of the Empire in varying degrees of control. Option 3 is for when the other options don't work and is in line with 'Lunar heroes gaining fame by killing Vivamort cultists and smashing slave heads of Thanatar' from the Lunar Way book.

I don't see why I suggested is strange, I'm just wondering how the decision about what to be done is come to.
If the answer is 'depends entirely on how the Red Emperor is feeling that day/what the Satrap wants/what the local official thinks they can get away with' then that's fine.
Of course maybe the Chaotic is illuminated and can prove their openess to the Lunar Way which will alter the range of options. But the reality is most Broos will be horrible suffering abominations wracked by disease who want nothing more than to share their suffering with others.
 

I was wondering what happens if Lunar authorities discover a band of broos in a forest within the bounds of the Empire.
Do they send some Seven Mothers Missionaries to try to get them to join the cult? Or do they specifically get told to join the Danfive Xaron cult or die?
Does some illuminated Lunar officer take them under their wing and keep them as a horrible chaotic warband so they can use them as a beat-stick against foreign barbarians?
Does the Yelmic noble overseer of the local area just start Sunspearing them?

Is there even an agreed upon procedure in the absence of an express order by the Red Emperor? I guess absent of that everything falls under the authority of the Satrap, which would then be farmed out to over-seers on the ground because the Satrap can't be everywhere at once.

20 hours ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

spittin fax

I'd like to point out how in explaining the appeal of Elmal versus Yelmalio, at no point did you reference the difference in magic or Elmal having 'fire' where Yelmalio doesn't have it. We don't just like Elmal because we want to use fire magic, there is a very clear difference of worldview and psychological outlook that makes them attractive to different types of people. Which makes the idea that 'But Yelmalio is more true and complete and that's the way it is.' so frustrating.

I also like the idea of Elmali being among the Orlanthi, as it provides a modified worldview that can still be in concert with most of Orlanthi life. Every redblooded Orlanthi male (or Vingan) potentially being a riotious blustery blowhard who just can't wait to rustle themselves some Cattle can be contrasted with the more sober 'Watchman' like Elmali who can be just as necessary to a stable Clan/Tribe life. I see it as being a different path of Masculinity in Orlanthi society that really appeals to me personally. (Not that this will matter too much because I'm going to be the GM and not a player so I won't get to RP this but well you don't always get what you want). Though I should stress while I know Women can be Yelmalians I have no idea if Female Elmali were or are a thing.

I do prefer Elmal over Yelmalio. I don't hate Yelmalio anymore but I don't like how his adherents are presented in a distinctly unsympathetic way. To make Yelmalio more sympathetic you really have to emphasize the 'suffering God' aspects of him and how his purity and justice and truth are things people can grasp onto to keep them going rather than just something that makes the Sun Domers super culturally arrogant. That just makes them extremely lame and unattractive. Maybe there's some funny joke buried in about hypocritical cultural arrogance or something but whatever the joke is I don't find it that funny. It just makes them un-cool.

Also I do know about the Sartarite cultural context that led to the Sun Dome Sartarite County being a thing and part of that is Elmali breaking with the Orlanthi and that Yelmalio was the solution to the trouble to prevent Civil War and Kinstrife. Nevertheless, I think the idea of the loyal Elmali Watchman is a powerful Gloranthan Archetype that could be VERY EASILY presented to the players as something to slot into as opposed to 'Phalangite who doesn't fight in a Phalanx'. It's really just an open goal there to be taken.

I'm expecting Lightfore (official name presented as Yelmalio), Yelm and Lodril to have the best and most extensive writeups in the Solar book. It's the book I've wanted the most out of the RQ:G launch.

2 minutes ago, radmonger said:

If you are discussing culture instead of cult, then by what measure is say Nochet not a Dara Happan city? What aspects of material, non-magical culture do they lack that Dara Happan culture has?

The differences between Nochet and Yuthuppa are entirely that of cult and mythology. Nochet is ruled by Ernalda, queen of the Gods, former underwife of Yelm.  Yuthuppa is currently ruled by the Red Godess, Yelm's daughter. That's not independent centers of development of technology clashing, that is the result of political and religious conflict within one common framework.

To some degree, all known Genertalan cities are solar cities, they just express that nature differently. Dara Happa is just the place that does so by claiming close continuity to the mythical pre-time concept of Solar Empire. The cities that existed before their cavalry became nomads, and their peasants hunter gatherers.

 

 

I was actually thinking of mentioning that per Wyrms Footprints suggests that the system of rank and nobility among the Orlanthi pantheon (and one might assume that filters down to the Orlanthi themselves) is an emulation of Yelm's social order. Wyrms Fooprints goes even farther and suggest that Yelm's position as Emperor introduced politics as such into myth.
Essentially, all complex social organization higher than a clan or a family (that uses a system of nobility and rank) can, in some way, be traced back to Yelm's status as the Emperor. 
"Yelm's leadership was one of his attributes, but leadership implies a followership too, and that is the origin of political interactions."
So, if we go back to the issue raised by this thread: that Pelorian influence is restricted to a tiny corner of Genertela, and isn't as expansive or culturally influential as the Orlanthi. I think rather that the influence of the Solars is so pervasive in terms of social organization that people take what they get from it for granted, while forgetting or ignoring where it came from in the first place.
I would suggest that it's similar to how people don't even think of business suits as a distinctly 'English' mode of dress anymore, because it's so culturally pervasive across the world at this point that it's just assumed as the norm.
 

I wouldn't go as far as to say the Solars totally suck but I do think you have a valid point regarding the cultural spread of the Orlanthi virtually everywhere, whereas Solars tend to have at best isolated pockets (outside of Teshnos, Kraorela, Pent, and Dara Happa). So I'd like to expand on some of my thoughts about that.
Basically what I think would really round out some of the areas of Orlanthi or pseudo-Orlanthi dominance if there were more confederations or lesser kingdoms of Solars. Think like a Sundome that acts more like a small city that takes a leading role in the region rather than having a stick up its ass and tut-tutting at everyone around them. Part of Yelmic virtue is being able to exercise just and acceptable rulership over those foreign to you, in more legitimate ways than keeping them as a tributary tax farm.

Basically I like the idea of the towns Riverjoin, Eastpoint and Southbank as Lunar/Solars doing their own thing along the Janube river, far away from Peloria and the Lunar Empire's machinations. So theoretically you could have a campaign set there about the Lunar/Solar world view with the Hero Wars of central genertela more in the rear-view mirror. Granted I know the Hero Wars touch more than just central Genertela.
The city-state of Galin in Safelster also interests me, as it's forming one of the key powerblocs of the region with its alliance with Kustria across the lake. They're a horse based people worshipping Galanin. Who I think we can safely assume is some kind of Solar deity or interpretation of the Sun Horse/Disk.
One of the reasons I like Six Ages Lights Going Out is that while the Berenethtelli are heavily Orlanthi-ized they still have a surviving solar core best exemplified by their royal line having Elmal as their patron God, you can even get some events where Solar traditionalists cause a stir. So playing Six Ages LGO didn't just feel like King of Dragon Pass culturally again.
I get that's kind of against the grain of Solar Civilization trying to recreate the God Time Golden Age of Emperor of the World Yelm. But I think that's kind of the problem here, if you are a Solar you are probably submitting to the Red Emperor as the centre of world, nay even the universe. Hypothetically an Orlanthi king or tribe could tell Argrath or Alakoring to take a walk and they're not compromising their Orlanthi identity (they might be compromising their life and livelihood though). But a Solar might be if they refused to recognize Yelm's viceroy as their lawful ruler.

Some of the other people in the thread have pointed to the logic of Solar civilization seeming to control the inflamed passions of violent warrior aristocrats in a way Orlanthi civilization fails to do so (as a key feature of its cultural dogma in fact, Violence is always an option). I think it would be reasonable if there were more areas across Glorantha that got fed up with this feature of Orlanthi culture and aligned more with Solars. I think actually that's part of the vibe of the Lunar missionary work in Central Gernertela, reaching out to the downtrodden and those dissatisfied with certain elements of Orlanthi ways. I'd like to see that kind of logic applied to the Sundomes perhaps. Like if the surrounding Orlanthi tribes actually LIKE them because they'll do the thankless work of fighting Trolls and Darkness demons when no one else wants to. I think Glorantha sometimes plays up the 'stubborn mercenary' attitude of the Yelmalians too much. If (apologies for seeming arrogant in what I'm about to say) I was writing them I'd probably play them up as kind of wilderness rangers, keeping the last lights going, acting as messengers between settlements, scouts and wardens of trails, roads and hills. Basically as I was writing this post I was reminded of the game/visual novel Roadwarden I'm playing now where part of your job description is you're basically doing that, ensuring ciivlization flourishes by clearing roads, fighting back monsters, acting as a messenger between settlements of a troubled region. There's a mercenary element sure (you can usually demand payment, or additional payment for your work) but you can often assert you're doing this out of a kind of belief in the value of doing it. Maybe that role is less necessary in the more densely populated and civilized Central Genertela, but there's plenty of places in Glorantha that work would be valued.
 

For anyone who reveres Yelm as Emperor of the Universe it seems to come down to the Lunars being able to command Chaos. The power of commanding Chaos and the official inheritance of Yelm's power of ruling over the universe is united in the body and person of The Red Emperor. So even Chaos is made to submit to the Emperor of the universe and that's so much better than having it run around causing problems. I don't think the Yelmic priest hierarchy and other associated cults actually LIKE Chaos. Chaos is inherently repugnant, unless you're illuminated. Now a lot of the Yelmic priesthood are illuminated so that helps resolve that issue. But illumination doesn't make you into a robot who adores Chaos. They're just able to recognize Chaos has it's place in the world, and can be made to submit to the Empire, just like any enemy to the legitimacy and inhabitants of the Lunar Empire.

Personal opinion on this rant starts here:

Now that being said this is part of my hangup with the Empire. I really like the Solars and I do not vibe at all with the Lunars. The over-reach of illuminated weapons of mass destruction threatens to upset the world at large, which conflicts with the element of responsibility and temperance I think a leader should embody. Which also, that's kind of been my read on how the Light/Fire rune embodies itself. Yes they tend to be stuck-up, but there are good reasons for that beyond just needing my ritual purity intact so I can throw Sun Spears at people I don't like. Temperance, measured command, upholding justice. These are virtues that are going to become more important as the Hero Wars progress and we see the excesses of both sides.
For me I don't see the use of Chaos as ever 'measured', the Crimson Bat is a true atrocity and stain on the world. Of course the illuminated Yelmic priests would understand it is Chaos that has been made to submit and serve the Empire. But an Empire built on such pain and suffering abrogates the greater responsibility to the Universe. You can say that's how all Empires end up eventually in Glorantha, and sure, but the Crimson Bat and the use and abuse of Chaos is pretty damn bad.
Then again, Yelm's arrogance and desire for control is also what led to him being murdered by Orlanth. At least from the perspective of the Theyalans. Maybe we're seeing this play out in time again. Yelm on Earth thinks they're doing the world a favour by bringing it under control but is also doing harm at the same time. Except this time the Emperor has Chaos in his arsenal which further intensifies the conflict. But it needn't have been Chaos in particular, the threat of the Emperor over-reaching is always there. And for every action there's a reaction, and the storm of the Hero Wars is that reaction.

7 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

this Vingan outlaw is also pretty kewl (from the same pinterest account)

[IMAGE]

Ah yes the redhead. Fun fact about the 'Meteor Mace'. He mentioned that it's not a Meteor at all, but the remains of a Dwarf cannonball that got stuck in a tree. I loved that. Furthermore she's semi-based on another redhead from an anime I believe but I forget what the name of it was .

Part of why illumination leads to people performing sociopathic actions is because illumination tears you away from your learned cultural and cult taboos. You're immune to spirits of reprisal from your cult (as outlined in Cults of Terror) and you're immune to Detect Chaos. So if the only thing stopping a person from using Chaos or non Cult-compliant means to get ahead in life was those taboos in the first place... then they might well become an illuminated Chaotic sociopath and happily so.

On the other hand we know illumination does not completely destroy your sense of self and core beliefs. Arkat and the Arkati hate Chaos so much that even illuminated they hold on to their requirement to fight it. How this differs from say an Uroxi  becoming illuminated and then becoming utterly distraught, I don't really know. Perhaps it's a question of constructing a thought out and 'measured' hatred or belief in your head that can stick with you (personally YOU, not your cult) rather than the blind (but justified) fury of the Storm Bull adherents.

source here:

https://no.pinterest.com/sutorenja/a-coffee-stained-sketchbook/

He started posting them on the 4channel Traditional Games (/tg/) board's recurring BRP/Runequest thread, which were quite active for a month or two. He even took some requests such as that blonde Elmali you can see on his page.