vagabond

It is very well done. Flexible enough to port to other things. It can also be fleshed out a bit more, my only minor quibble with i, but to correct that via houserules is not that tough.

Ian

I am happy to see that the last rpg I played is still alive and kicking. I am returning to role-playing after a nearly thirty year absence. I moved away from AD&D when I discovered Runequest, then Stormbringer (still have the first edition), and Pendragon. I had converted large numbers of AD&D modules into BRP-format, when I sort of lost touch with all my gaming for a considerable amount of time. Now I have the three hundred-plus pages of BRP to wade through. Finding all of my old rpg stuff intact, I am going back to TSR/WofC's "World of Greyhawk," where I was running the module "Thieves' World."

Am glad to see an active forum and group!

Cheers,

Gregory

Welcome to the Forum.

What part of the world do you live in?

Ian

Stormbringer is still my all time favorite game.

That said, my ultimate edition (and, the one I am slowly compiling my notes together to provide in pdf format) is a combination of SB1, SB4, Elric!, and Mongoose Elric, with bits and pieces from the various supplements as well as copious house rules.

You may want to look into the Corum supplement from Darcsyde.

Ian

You could give shields stackable DR - added to the DR of armour. That way, even if the shield parry fails outright, there is still some deflection. This covers both combatants without armor but with a shield, and would be fairly easy to extrapolate the shield DR into formation based maneuvers, providing DR for cooperating combatants.

Ian

I have a skill similar to Tactics for my Jorune conversion. Same with Knowledge (Military).

I'll see if I dig up the description and use.

Ian

Started in 1978/9 myself with the blue box Basic D&D and B1 In Search of the Unknown. Shortly thereafter it was AD&D,

Top Secret, Gamma World, Gangbusters and Boot Hill.

I also still own this, complete with dice and miniature:

Ian

OK, things have been pushed back due to family emergency. Nothing too serious (yet, we hope), but

something that we need to keep an eye on, and eats up my already limited free time. Hopefully the

delay won't be too bad - I just have to actually type things in and format a little bit.

Ian

My 5 yo son (6 in a few months) has a love of dinosaurs and dragons. A while back I gave him hints about

a "game that uses you imagination", where one can explore pyramids, fight mummies, ride dragons, see

dinosaurs, etc. Lately, he has been thinking about it more and more.

So, I am working up a quick and dirty conversion of some old D&D modules (Keep on the Borderlands/Caves of

Chaos, In Search of the Uknown, Isle of Dread) to BRP, but using only Elric! rules for now (to keep things

simple - no demon summoning, just Battle Magic) and even doing a quick divide by 5 set up to keep things

on a 1 to 20 scale (reading percentiles can be tricky for the young uns, and really, no need for that level of

granularity at this stage). He has a schoolmate (who just turned 6) with twin older brothers (7) who are all

into the same kinds of stuff (the schoolmate and his brothers are huge on Star Wars as well). So, I hope to

guide all four of them through a set of adventures and see how it goes.

Wish me luck, and I hope to have a glowing report posted when it actually happens ...

Ian

Yes indeed.

How much do we know of the Thriddle involvement with the original Earth colonies?

Regarding Steve's comment in the rpg.net thread. What about the war with Thantier for Tan Iricid. How did the Thriddle conduct warfare? If they managed to defeat Thantier, that would be no mean feat. What do we know about this?

Did the Thriddle have a hand in ensuring the various earth colonies remained isolated for so many years?

All good thoughts and things to run with for sure.

Knowing how xenophobic humans can be I find it a little hard to believe yhayt the Dharsage hasn't become suspicious of the thriddle. Or perhaps they have but there is nothing they can do?

Companion:Ardoth has some good insight here. Suspicion and mistrust

certainly exist. The Thriddle were, at one point, banished from Ardoth.

But, then the warp flash occurred, and the previously warp free Ardoth

was no longer warp free. So, the Dharsage caved in and allowed the

Thriddle to return in an effort to fix things. How odd the Thriddle knew

exactly what to do? Makes you wonder if they caused it in the first place ...

My greatest fear is that the Lamorri had a psychic mind control slavery rather then the traditional shackles and chains. Maybe even genetic manipulation to ensure obedience. If a Lamorri were to turn up, thriddle would become subservient and begin working for their masters again.

An interesting thought, and not a bad idea. I think it would require more

than just their presence though. Maybe some biotechnical device/implant?

But, as I mentioned before, you assume there are no Lamorri left on Jorune.

And, if there are some left, where do you think they might be? And how

would you think are they kept locked up ...

Ian

Just having reread Companion:Ardoth - there is plenty of good Thriddle

conspiracy things that can be read into it.

The withholding of Tech caches from the Dharsage during the Energy Weapons

War.

Illegal Shirm-Eh trading at the advice of Thriddle during the Ramian plague,

leading to the Ramian invasion.

The warp flash itself.

Ian

Nice.

Read some Larry Niven books with Puppeteers (aptly named). I've only read the Ringworld books so far.

You assume I haven't already

I agree there is more to the Thriddle than meets the eye. A lot can be made of them in a campaign. Here's a challenge now, what else could the Thriddle be responsible for?

The existence of Thivin, Trarch, Muadra, Boccord?

Bochigon are descended from Corastin/Croid stock, but did they come from

the Corastin homeworld, or engineered on Jorune?

Much of the Lamorri Isho tech, including whatever is under Ardoth and the

Thoosahs?

Various Ramian aggressions in search of Shirm-eh?

The Cleash in Githaw, where they naturally would never go?

The isolation of Tologora?

Ian

Some more Thriddle thoughts - to give people more fodder. Bear in mind,

this is my interpretation (or, rather, reinterpretation) of how things are,

to fit how I envision things and how to make life on Jorune that much

more interesting.

So, as I mentioned before, it seems like there could have been more interesting

stuff done with the Thriddle. For whatever reason, the Thriddle (Bennid Ho-Gomo)

taught the Crugar the Lightning Blast dysha, and the Muadra (perhaps Caji

Gends himself) taught the Woffen the Power Hold dysha in response (during

the Ninindrue Plague slayings most likely). Again, why? I find it rather odd that

the books say it was an honest mistake.

So, let's think about things. Much of the Tauther Guide, and indeed, most of

the Jorune history included as text in the game books, comes from the Thriddle.

Now, we know the Thriddle were a slave race to the Lamorri (both the Thriddle

and Corastin/Croid home worlds were conquered and consumed by the Lamorri,

whereas the Cleash were a client race - which I will come back to later). Now,

the Thriddle probably played a large part in the Lamorri's success in harnessing

and tapping into Isho, as well as the Lmaorri's understanding of Jorune

itself, including Shantha. Perhaps, the Thriddle covertly were able to assist

the Shantha in defeating the Lamorri. This would serve multiple purposes.

First, the Thriddle's oppressors would be overthrown, exacting revenge and

freeing the Thriddle from slavery. Also, this would give the Thriddle an

opportunity to become an important race on Jorune, considering they could

act as go between for the Shantha and the Ramian and Corastin/Croid.

The Cleash, however, would be mightily upset - they are now stuck on

Jorune because of the Thriddle treachery (wow, and how the Cleash hate

Thriddle) since the Cleash were not a slave race, but a client race. No

going home for them (whereas the Corastin/Croid and Thriddle apparently

have no home to go back to). So, the Corastin and Croid would be pretty

satisfied - they hated being slaves, and probably hated the Lamorri in

general. And, the Corastin and Croid seem to get along with Thriddle fine.

The Ramian might be a little indifferent, or at least mixed. The Ramian, again,

are like monkeys to the Lamorri. Enslaved, perhaps experimented upon, they

would also welcome their new found freedom as well (and, again, Thriddle

seem to be more accepted into Ramian folds - they can distinguish the sexes

for example). Some Ramian may be upset that they can no longer return to

their home world, but some may relish the thought that they do not have to.

Now, what does this have to do with the humans, mutants and Iscin races?

Well, the humans had peace with the Shantha. Humans naturally assert

themselves. Some humans may have made inroads with Ramian and

Corastin/Croid. These new humans and human mutations could potentially

topple the Thriddle as the single most important race on Jorune - they

could become the go betweens, the diplomats, etc. The Thriddle would not

be so keen to have this happen. So, again, knowing that the Thriddle may

have had a behind the scenes role in the defeat of the Lamorri, they may have

also played a similar role in the Shanthic attacks on humans. And, creating

chaos between the Crugar and Woffen could go a long way to disrupting

things as well.

Oh, those innocent Thriddle ...

Ian

Hey Mick,

Predictably (given what I did in my port of Isho and Dysha's to BRP), I prefer the separate skill for each Dysha. I liked the Jorune 3e system that emphasised the martial-arts like feel of Dyshas - and I think a separate skill re-infroces that. For me, muadra Dyshas' are orders of magnitude more crude than anything the shanthas do with isho... Which is why for them it's always a big deal.

Hmmm, good point, and one I think I had running around in the back of my mind,

to some degree at least.

For Muadra, Woffen and Crugar, dyshas do not come as naturally, but seem to

be more academic, or, to go along with your martial arts likeness, at least more

studious and meditative in nature. But, for the natural Joruni life - Shantha,

Corondon and such, it is a natural process (though quite refined in the

case of Shantha). I would lean more towards Shantha being more meditative

and Muadra, Woffen and Crugar more studious.

Anyway, it makes sense then to have dyshas as separate skills for Muadra,

Woffen and Crugar (and others ...), and have Shantha and other Joruni natives

base it directly upon the Moon skills or a simple weaving skill heavily influenced

by Moon skills. I think I'll go this route for now, which will allow me to get

Isho stuff out for PC races faster, and then develop the more natural/innate

methodology later, and leave it as an alternative system for all Isho wielders.

This leads to some other thoughts:

IIRC, Thriddle taught Woffen and Crugar their dyshas, and Thriddle supposedly

have studied Isho enough to be versed in some Isho skills similar to Boccord

(don't forget, Thriddle worked with Lamorri, and Lamorri were able to create

technologies that were able to manipulate and process Isho, so Thriddle may

have been exposed to some of that - another scenario carrot ...).

But, IIRC, in other sources, Muadra taught the Woffen the Power Hold dysha,

I believe during the Ninnindrue Plague slayings. This actually makes for some

good RPG setting stuff - what if the Thriddle taught the Crugar Lighting Blast,

and Muadra taught the Woffen Power Hold during the Crugar onslaught? Why

did the Thriddle teach the Crugar? Did the Thriddle have an alliance, or

wished to manipulate the Crugar for their own purposes? And how do the

Thriddle react to the Muadra intervention? Some more good scenario seeds and

gives the setting a more interesting dynamic.

Also, with the Lamorri interest and success in harnessing and manipulating Isho,

which Lamorri races have access to these devices? How much about Isho

do the Thriddle know about? What about Ramian? And, if Thivin are Ramian

offshoots, either natural mutations or Lamorri engineered, do they have more

Isho use?

More to chew on ...

Ian

Learning dyshas: how about one roll under all the other TN's? Ie roll under your lowest skill.

I go back and forth a little here. It penalizes a high Moon skill, while the

reverse, basing it upon the highest skill, ignores the lower skill levels.

I think I'll defer to the highest skill, but set some difficulty mod based upon

the other lower skills.

Its back to RQ sorcery but I always envisioned dysha weaving as sorcery done right.

With regard to weaving, I'd favour basing it on Moon skills rather than a separate skill for each. Its the bad thing in RQ sorcery again where improvement is painfully slow for each spell. I'd favour a small set of skills that can be mastered and allow for different effects dependong on how you mix them.

Agree on both counts. Hence I am leaning towards the Moon skills. I just need

to determine the best approach. The plus for going with individual dysha

skills, it is much easier to work with. But, then you have 7 Moon skills,

an unlimited number of dysha skills as new ones are created, and all of

the Isho skills ... That's a lot of skills.

I imagine that when a maudra gets good with certain Moon skills picking up a completely new dysha will not be a problem.

Yes and no. Picking up a new one is easier, when there are resources

to assist such as Shantha, Hishtins, etc. But, for creation of entirely new

dysha (or there is no Shantha or Hishtin or other Muadra), it might be a little

tough ...

But, good thoughts. Keep 'em coming.

Ian

OK all, here are some thoughts on Isho, Color and dyshas.

As mentioned before, one rolls 3d6 (modified for race - either more dice,

different dice, or flat ads, I haven't really decided yet) for Isho and Color.

Isho determines Isho Points, modified for race.

Color yields points to spend on the various Moon and Isho related skills

(potentially things like Interference, Unweaving, and the various dynamic

and static Isho skills). Again, these points, and to some degree what they

can be spent on as well as how they are spent, are determined by race.

Dysha using players/races can specialize in one or more Moons, giving the

some advantage in their use, but this yields disadvantages when using

other Moons/Colors.

To learn a dysha, a player rolls against the primary Moon Skill (Color) for

that dysha. There are modifiers based upon the number of additional Colors

involved in the weave, as well any Moon Skill specialization and inherent

dysha difficulty. Also, using Shanthas, Hishtins, and Muadra as teachers,

will yield modifiers as well. Optionally, instead of a difficulty modifier based

upon each Color in the dysha, I may require individual rolls for each Color.

While closer to the original Jorune mechanics, this does add some additional

complexity.

Once known, list the dysha on the character sheet.

I am still tinkering with either individual skills for the weaving of each dysha,

or basing the weaving roll on the appropriate Moon skill(s) with modifiers. If

I go with individual skills, then the learning process will set beginning level

based upon the primary Moon skill, modified perhaps by level of success.

Another option would be a generic weaving skill, which is modified by Moon

skill level and other factors.

Anyway, just wanted to put this out there for some comments.

Ian

It's not so much that adventures don't sell. it's that adventures only sell to the GM in a group, but rule material sells to everyone n the group, player and GM both.

This is definitely part of it. The other is that not all adventures for a product

line appeal to all consumers of that product line. The same holds for supplements

in general.

Ian

Hey,

Does anybody know where I can find a good list (or table) of aircraft take-off/stall speeds? I'm working out some stuff for Vehicles and want to make sure that my results are in the right ballpark.

For instance, I've got the F-104G at empty take-off weight with a take-off speed or about MOVE 293, 264 kph, 73 m/s, 154 mph, 241 ft/sec. It looks good, but I don't know if it is in anyway accurate. Or, at least accurate enough for RPG design purposes.

All I could find was 190-210 kph takeoff speed. I also found a stall speed of

196-216 mph elsewhere. I've also seen 200 knots. I'd go with 200 knots

due to the source:

1979 | 3214 | Flight Archive

The Flightglobal archives pull from various magazines of the era.

Ian

You can claim to have used the OGL as base, which is the same.

The OGL is not RuneQuest. RuneQuest is a trademarked name, and that name is

considered IP by the OGL. You may be able to claim compatibility with the

"MRQ SRD" and "MRQ OGL", but you cannot claim compatibility with RuneQuest

itself since Greg Stafford holds that trademark. Now, in all reality, Greg

will most likely not care.

US laws are in effect in the US, not abroad.

Yes and no. Some countries honor US copyright and trademark laws, and

some, even if they do not directly, will assist in persecution of people who

violate them.

Ian

Exactly. The above explanation was confirmed to me - in public - by the company that holds the rights to the Traveller Italian translation. They would simply not allow anyone to publish any Traveller OGL materials in Italian.

I believe you can publish material using translated Traveller OGL mechanics,

but you cannot sell them as Traveller material since Traveller itself is not

open - just the mechanics. Companies pay to translate games - system

and setting. If the system is divorced from the setting, then I believe you

are OK.

Ian

You can still say it is compatible with RuneQuest. The only think you cannot do is use the RQ logo.

I don't think so. RuneQuest is a trademarked name owned by Greg Stafford,

licensed to Mongoose. Mongoose may have had an agreement that allowed

publishers to use the MRQ STL and say their product is compatible with

RUneQuest, but since Mongoose is pulling the MRQ STL, legally you cannot claim

compatibility with RuneQuest unless you get permission from Greg Stafford

and/or Mongoose.

As far as OGL and language translations, as stated earlier, it depends on each

country's copyright and/or IP law. However, US copyright law holds that system

mechanics cannot be copyrighted, only the words used to describe those

mechanics. As such, the reason the OGL permits translation is because the

SRDs are written in English, and once translated, are no longer using the

exact words anyway. So, if the country in question follows US copyright

law with respect to rules, translations would be legal.

Ian

It would just seem to me that people could make stuff for MRQ1. I suppose the reality of it is that a new edition of an RPG kills off the old one, with most of the players switching over to the new edition.

But if I were running a game company, I would never touch OGL RPGs again. To great a chance of getting caught "with your pants down". I suppose Mongoose would have been put in a tough spot with D&D 4 if they weren't getting most of their income from miniatures.

Maybe I'll dust off that game system I started on a few years back.

There are plenty of companies still producing material based upon the 3.0/3.5

OGL. Pathfinder by Paizo is d20 OGL based, and some of the books are even

released under the OGL. Conan will remain d20 OGL based - the issue is

whether or not Mongoose will be able to renew the license, and if they were

going to move to RQ or go systemless or do d20 OGL and RQ. Castles and

Crusades by Troll Lord Games is also based upon the d20 OGL. Green Ronin's

True20 and Mutants and Masterminds are d20 OGL systems.

People can make stuff for MRQ1, they just cannot say it is for RuneQuest.

That is a separate license. Same with the d20 OGL and d20 STL- people can

make d20 OGL based games, but cannot claim d20 compatibility. Separate

licenses. There is no "getting caught with you pants down" - the MRQ OGL

and d20 OGL exist in perpetuity. What you are "worried" about is the

killing off of the d20 STL and RuneQuest licenses - the licenses that let you

say "This product is compatible with [d20/RuneQuest]".

Mongoose and others were fine with D&D 4 - they had other lines or a strong

enough d20 OGL line that stood on its own.

Ian

'78/'79 with BD&D, and then AD&D shortly thereafter.

I came into BRP late - 1993 or so, when I discovered Stormbringer 4th.

Ian

BTW, THeroectically could a company still produce stuff for MRQ1 under the OGL? It might not be MRQ2 approved, but I think it would still be perfectly legal according to the OGL.

Theoretically nothing! Matt Sprange has already stated that this is the case.

The only caveat is you cannot say it is compatible or designed for RuneQuest.

Mongoose is pulling the MRQ license as well as leaving OGL.

Same with D&D moving to 4.0 - the OGL for 3.0 and 3.5 are still valid, but the

d20 STL went away.

Ian

But, assuming we don't want to make any money on it, wouldn't a GPL be better than OGL? As I understand it, derivatives of a GPL are automatically GPL too (so no creeping protectionism later, under the guise of IP).

Not necessarily. It all depends on who you wish to extend the material to.

The better question is, what do hope to do by releasing a core set of rules

out into the open?

As hard as I try to find a valid reasoning to use the GPL as a model (and I have

started and deleted several responses that try already), it all comes back to

who is the intended target for the open core rules, and what is the end goal?

I am guessing the goal is to get developers and publishers to use the system,

put out quality material in support of it, with the hopes of attracting an

audience/community large enough to justify 3rd party support, and return

derivative rules back into the core.

I think you'll find that the developers and publishers do expect to make some

sort of money to support their involvement. As such, they may be less inclined

to use the GPL and risk losing what they might consider IP (or, in more general

terms, losing control over what makes their product unique and/or marketable).

Hence, an OGL type license, because it does provide some of those protections.

Ian

I've been meaning to reply to this:

I am interested in views regarding section "C.09 What went wrong with the D20 effort?" of the following link:

THE UNAUTHORIZED UNOFFICIAL OPEN GAMING LICENSE OGL D20 FAQ

Anyway, I always find it interesting when people say the d20 OGL failed in a

general sense, and then go on to say it failed as an open source effort.

Especially when they base that failure upon comparison with GPL software.

For one, the d20 OGL did not fail entirely. It was actually very successful, and

led to the rise of such companies as Mongoose, Green Ronin and others. I would

say that the big stumble occurred in the migration from 3.0 to 3.5, which led

to a splintering of efforts, and then the restrictions placed on 4.0 which

is not truly OGL'd. Hasbro, WotC and D&D enjoyed a bit of a renaissance.

Now, as to the concept of the d20 OGL (and RPG OGLs in general) also was

not a complete failure, as evidenced by the amount of material, companies

that sprang forth, and new OGLs created. OGLs provided a means for designers

to release toolkit versions of their systems so that other designers could build

upon those toolkits and return some of their effort back to the community.

This worked quite well. The issue raised in the section you note is almost a

non-issue. Who cares if designers chose not to open up their own material?

That kind of is their right. As long as they did not attempt to close material

already open, and clearly marked open game content as such, then all is

good. But that wasn't the point of the line used - the point of the line was to

basically protect the things the designers wanted to protect. The rule of the

OGL is declare all OGC as OGC, and the rest can be PI. And that is what was

done for the most part. Designers had to declare previous OGC as OGC, and

could provide new OGC if they so chose, and then the rest would remain IP

and protected. I see no problem here. I see no problem with people trying to

make money using a license as it was intended.

Ian