hipsterinspace

9 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Not sure that calling air for a earth business is the most appropriate thing to not create more issue. I would say that the storm voice would propose our guy to discuss with Ernalda priestess and let Orlanth temple away from this issue

Orlanth Rex is at the top of the social order and is the cult responsible for dispensing "law" in Sartar, to the degree that they have magic to compel priests and worshippers of other cults to cooperate with their rulings. Additionally, if the man killed was an Orlanth worshipper (initiated or lay, and basically all Orlanthi men qualify as one of those), it is Orlanth's business.

16 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So, if a BG incorrectly chops up my brother, what should I do?

I'd imagine that access to divination generally prevents the biggest mistakes and provides rather clear answers when mistakes are made. Your best chance to appeal is probably to have your clan's chief or Storm Voice take the complaint to the Tribal King and the tribal-level Orlanth cult, have them ask Orlanth about it, and based on the result the temple will probably be forced to pay his wergild (there's some handy Orlanth Rex magic to make that happen) or your brother wasn't so innocent after all.

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Sounds more Death Wish or Dirty Weekend than The Big Sleep or The Body in the Library. More the Punisher than Dangerous Davies.

For a detective in the Philip Marlowe mould — complete with antiquated notions of masculine behaviour; the name ‘Philip’ picked to indicated chivalry ()? — why not a solar cultist? “[D]own these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid”? Not that anyone would ever suggest such a thing.

As the seekers of truth, Lhankorings can be that other sort of investigator, they’re the cult who have the magic for it. Figuring out who killed someone is ultimately yet another form of knowledge and rests within the Knowing God’s purview, though it would probably be a rather strange thing to specialize in.

That said, Dragon Pass really doesn’t have anything resembling systematic justice. Having a judge, jury, and executioner in the form of a very scary woman with an axe dispensing frontier justice makes for a straightforward and rather effective deterrent: if you do something bad enough, there will be no wergild to pay, no honor to satisfy, no mercy to call on.

Having a duo of the two is ripe for some comedy, I can definitely imagine some buddy cop action happening in Nochet with an oddly hard-boiled Lhankoring and unusually thoughtful Gorite uncovering assassination plots and navigating the endless intrigues of a Great House

The Eleven Lights campaign makes it clear that a lot of people die, on the order of a few hundred in a relatively large and wealthy clan of 1500. Lots of people and animals die, it’s genuinely dire even coming out on the other side of it. Broyan, Kallyr, and the rest of the rebellion in Heortland and Sartar are still weak and on the defensive, it will take years to recover, which makes extreme options like calling on Harrek or the Dragonrise very attractive.

Even after the decapitation strike that was the Dragonrise, the population in Sartar will take a long time to recover while the post-occupation baby boom grows to adulthood.

19 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Now clan A claims for wergild ? But why ? Even if there is a loss, the only responsible is the lost ! Responsability is Orlanth's value.

Innoncent is innocent right ?  that is what I don't understand, why wergild is allowed in that case

Would clan B would claim for wergild too because clan A's guy offensed it, its guy, etc ... And at the end that is just a negociation ? Even if their is, from my irl perspective, I admit, only one bad guy in this case ?

Such a thing is clear grounds for a feud!

51 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why them?  Not saying secret murder is good, somebody may investigate and bring the perps to justice, but it is (usually) neither oath breaking nor an offense against the Earth temples.  

If there is a BG duty to avenge secret murder, that's actually interesting news for an upcoming campaign.  I'm just unaware of it.

Secret murder is a breach of Heort’s laws, a violation of the oaths the people take to become full adult members of their community, I don’t see how that would be outside of the Gorites’ purview. Adding to that, the Axe Sisters are some of the best investigators around, responsible for tracking down and killing rapists, kinslayers, oathbreakers, and those who transgress against the earth. They worship a vengeful goddess born in the bloody entrails of her murdered mother.

I would imagine known secret-murderers are probably not always killed by Gorites, sometimes they might be killed by Humakti or Storm Bulls, maybe even killed by a relative of their victim(s), bonded into slavery, or just banished and outlawed: it probably depends on the magnitude of the offense.

One thing that has been made clear is that executions do not qualify for demanding wergild and that there are some offenses that wergild can’t stand in for.

Historically wergild was also at times demanded in the case of duels, and in the Eleven Lights book it is mentioned that if certain characters are killed — even in a sanctioned duel on Isle Dangerous — that the family is likely to demand compensation.

Excepting secret murder, which is seen as chaotic and will probably get you a visit from the nice ladies with axes should you be found out, one of the main Orlanthi maxims is “Violence is always an option”. Duels can escalate into feuds, which can escalate into wars. As such, wergild is a manifestation of Ernalda’s maxim, “There’s always another way”, in this case a way to keep the escalations managed while still answering a challenge. All the same, “Nobody can make you do anything you don’t want to do”, and it’s best to be prepared to answer for an insult if payment is not offered.

On 5/26/2023 at 8:44 AM, radmonger said:

Evil centralization of socioeconomic decisions that would otherwise be made by individuals into the hands of one, their owner.

The contrast is with a clan, where the corresponding decisions are made by collective consensus, with the chieftain merely leading that process.

it makes perfect sense for Ompalam to be a Nomad God, under that name or another. Maybe this is a new development since the opening of the trade routes to Fonrit. Maybe it has always been that way. Maybe it hasn't yet happened.  But there will be those who feel their responsibility to lead the  struggle for survival does not allow the luxury of debate or disagreement.

Hard men making the hard choices for their herd. 

Whether the rare khan who follows that path actively detects as chaotic is an open question. Either way, they are not welcome at the Paps, and are well advised to steer clear of the Block. So they usually stick to the deep Wastes.

Ompalam very straightforwardly has the chaos rune, and as the god of slavery it stands to reason that practicing his teachings strengthens him. This is one of the great contradictions of Praxian society, the ubiquity of slavery — something that arose from chaos — amidst their fervent hatred of chaos. 

1 hour ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Hi all. I need to put a shortform Barntar Cult in the Pavis County section of the next book in the P&BRC series. Has anyone created such a thing that they would be happy to donate? Thought I'd ask before I sit down to write it

What's been posted here about Barntar is effectively that he's the same as Orlanth Thunderous, but with the three rune spells of Tame Bull, Command Bull, and Plow. Unless you're in Esrolia or in the Empire, that's what Barntar looks like.

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It's an unfortunate word - to have two distinct meanings. I prefer "Lhankoring magic".

What would you call a LM who focuses their studies on and devotes their life to learning all about sorcery? (bound to be a few in Esrolia)

The RQG core book would refer to them as Philosophers. The Torvald Fragments—the source of Lhankoring sorcery—is still sorcery all the same, but is rather limited in scope to what is actually useful to a scholar. They may practice sorcery, even expand their knowledge of sorcery beyond Lhankor Mhy’s typical offerings, but they are ultimately still Lhankorings, scholars devoted to the Knowing God, not Zzaburi, actual professional sorcerers.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

And not even true for some sorcerers who are also theists - such as the current option to play a 'sorcerer' - a Lhankor Mhy initiate. I'm quite sure an LM initiate thinks LM is very worthy of worship, and their sorcerous abilities given to them ... by? ... LM are reason enough for that. LM gave them sorcery... pretty strong reason to see the merit in worship.

When I say sorcerers and sorcerous perspective I mean Malkioni, Brithini, et al., the scope of “atheists” being referenced. Lhankorings have a broadly theistic perspective, and while they sometimes dabble in sorcery, they are scholars, and their sorcery is not fundamental to that role like it would be for a Zzaburi.

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Note that, for  sorcerors and mostali, neither is true. They hold that the visual stimuli theistic initiates experience while interacting with runic power nodes are purely hallucinations, containing no information the participant didn't already know. Some mostali[3], would perhaps reluctantly admit that using the human visual cortex in that way, rather than relying on logical reasoning alone, is surprisingly effective.

I mean, those sorcerous perspectives still recognize the gods as in some sense real, they just don’t recognize them as being worthy of worship. They’re fully willing to accept that theistic worshippers are seeing some portion of a truth, at least truth as they experience and draw on it, but that’s qualified by the fact that it’s only a part of a greater entity within a much, much bigger story (hence the monomyth). There’s a reason the God Learners could (and did) tap myths and otherwise twist and alter them to gain incredible power, and why the gods themselves broke the compromise to doom them.

36 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Moon Rune is about power and balance. There's no reason at all why an Orlanthi PC cannot have Moon as either first or second elemental Rune. You just have to determine what that means for the character.  It may be that rather than immediately reacting with the Violence is always an Option approach that the character is the calm at the center of the storm and spends time meditating on right actions first. Or it may be that the Moon Rune simply affords the character more POW and allows her to rise quickly through the ranks of initiates to become an Orlanthi priest.  Or the character is simply more open to the "Strange Gods" just like Argrath (as seen in Prince of Sartar during initiation) - the Bat Goddess is one of those strange gods, and may speak of other ways to invoke the Storm (perhaps through shamanism, perhaps through sorcery, or some combination).

Absolutely, I think it’s a great change. Some of the personality recommendations I’ve seen for Moon rune are introspective, contemplative, or open-minded, which I think are all things that make a lot of sense for a would-be Orlanthi hero.

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I am obviously misremembering something: what happens to an Orlanthi whose Moon or Chaos rune is awakened in adulthood initiation? I thought that was Hamlet had his chips. If so, surely they don’t hire in strangers to do the deed and witness the clan’s shame.

Vasana the Vingan, one of the RQG pregen adventurers in the core book, begins with Moon as her second elemental rune. The Hero Wars era stuff was quite a bit more extreme on some of these things and I suspect that’s a big part of why they’re not canon. On the other hand, embracing the chaos rune is something different, but at that point I’d suspect it’s a consequence of something beyond the unfortunate initiand simply “choosing evil” or some-such.

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Because of the importance of the Orlanth cult among the Orlanthi, the clan leader needs to have been an initiate of Orlanth for at least a year.

Does this also apply to the Enhyli, who in the GM Adventures book are stated to have Elmal chiefs, or the Torkani who worship Argan Argar as their primary men’s god, or are they the exception that proves the rule?

I suspect it is typical but not required. The chief of the Enhyli clan of the Colymar is said to always be an Elmal initiate, while many in the Torkani tribe are led by Argan Argar chiefs. In the HeroQuest publication The Coming Storm, the Red Cow's rivals within the Cinsina tribe, the Dolutha clan, are led by an Elmal chief, though I suspect this is probably no longer the case in the current material. In the same book the Emerald Sword of the Dinacoli tribe are led by a chief who is an initiate of the Seven Mothers.

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, I would certainly think that once someone has become a shaman, then they would be in their 20s or so, and thus haven't had the years of patient, methodical mental exercises necessary for sorcery.

People are also called to be a shaman most of the time. The Horned Man chooses them and they follow him. It’s something that pervades their life and experience, it’s not what they do, it’s what they are. The thing about shamans is how direct their connection with the spirit world is, they have spirits who are their personal friends and personal enemies in addition to those who they have cultic friendships and enmities with.

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I wouldn't say it's "beyond their comprehension", but it's not likely to be something that they'd ever head towards (largely out of need or desire - let alone out of tribal/clan obligations).

If someone’s entire perception is rooted in the personal, immanent, transcendent experience of the spirit world, it’s going to be exceedingly difficult to internalize the impersonal materialist sorcerous perspective, which for someone who is a shaman would constitute an incredibly dramatic detachment from what they’re used to. Plus, who has the time to spend literal years training in an entirely different way of approaching the world, let alone reconciling the two?

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Even though Uz can combine the training, I strongly suspect that the sorcery still comes first - just because of those early years of mental exercises.

I believe it’s actually the opposite. Arkat Kingtroll, the Uz route to sorcery, is something that was added to the established paths of darkness. If it’s anything like the human Arkat cult, it requires illumination to fully enter the secrets and receive teaching in sorcery. Now, I’d think the reason it’s rather easy for mistress race trolls to learn sorcery, in addition to their assumed shaman status through Kyger Litor, is because they have that time that most other beings don’t, as they are effectively immortal. 

If I had to guess, it was probably something to with the longstanding conflict between the Dinacoli and the Cinsina. I believe the former were very resistant to Argrath’s rule.

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So where did you get this?

From the RQG core book, p. 114:

The vendref are not always complacent serfs, and sometimes serve their overlords as warriors or join invading armies, and have even moved en masse to a new location... The Pure Horse People must be careful how they treat the vendref, and their rule is far lighter than that of a slave and its owner.

From the next page, regarding the Feathered Horse Queen:

She is guarded by fanatical Humakti from the Hiia Swordsman subcult.

The Humakti Vendref, as referenced in the Well of Daliath link I posted upthread, follow Hiia Swordsman, a hero of Humakt who joined with the Feathered Horse Queen to serve her during her "revolution". The subcult who take their name from him remain the personal guardians of the Feathered Horse Queen, who serves as the protector of the Vendref as well as the queen of her people. This seems to be the most up to date reference for how their society actually fits together. The article even mentions that the Vendref have Orlanth Adventurous among them, again tied to the Feathered Horse Queen.

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

According to the guide the Vendref are not allowed tohave weapons.  How do Humakti function without a sword?

They are the personal guardians of the Feathered Horse Queen, they also ride. They serve as the enforcers of the Queen's will and defenders of the Vendref.

I would guess that that's another section of the guide that has changed since publication, kind of like initiation being rare and illiteracy being strictly enforced among the Dara Happan peasantry.

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Who would immigrate to become a vendref?

Nearby Esrolia had a rather large civil war take place, civil wars tend to create refugees.

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So  as I read it, the approx. 9.000 male Pure Horse People are slightly more than half Yelmites, and the other 4,000 are Humakti, Seven Mothers, and smaller cults.  It is ambiguous whether any of them have joined Orlanth.  But this implies an "other Lightbringer' contingent of at least 1,000.

Supposedly most of the Humakti are drawn from the Vendref. In the GM Adventures book there is a Pure Horse Orlanth cultist in Apple Lane, so I would presume some Orlanth presence among them too. Another deity that makes an appearance among the Pure Horse People in an adventure book is Polaris (in The Smoking Ruin), I would think his cult is a decent share of the miscellaneous group.

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Also, 'sorcery' appears to be a very wide-ranging term that's not so easy to identify. Given that, I think it makes it harder to interpret the over-aching ban on all sorcery can't be shamans (or vice-versa - although I don't think there's a problem on the sorcery side).

And I've asked this question before (a year or 2 ago), without much conclusive answers - what does it actually mean to be a shaman? Personally, I think it means having a fetch, and the ability to discorporate without external help. Neither of those precludes knowledge of sorcery.

It seems like the intuition and spiritual immanence, for lack of a better term, required to make contact with spirits on their terms is directly at odds with the detached, materialist, rationalist perspective that sorcery requires. Sorcery has tools in its suite of magic that allow practitioners to exert control over spirits and the spirit world, perhaps even enter it, but that is very different than making yourself permanently a part of it.

2 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

In Smoking Ruins it says cannot contact Golden Bow directly and so is some sort of deity? Seems like a being, a shaman path and a warrior society...

Also says Grazer Four Gifts Clan forms the core of the Golden Bow Spirit Society (an elite Grazer Cavalry troop)...

If someone can’t contact an entity directly, that’s often why they would use a spirit cult or society instead, there’s a lot more flexibility. It’s very common in Prax, with several spirit societies forming important parts of the cultic landscape, the most important one of 1625 probably being the intertribal White Bull Society which is integrated into Storm Bull, Waha, and Orlanth.

For the Grazers it’s a place for a more esoteric approach to the Yelmic religion. There’s already a short-form write-up in the RQG core book, and there are some theories out there about possible ties between Golden Bow and the lost Sun of Genert’s Garden, Splendid Yamsur.

49 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The fact is, in Far Point Harvar Ironfist as part of the Lunar Occupation tried to convert everyone to Yelmalio worship by force, hence his sobriquet.  That went down slightly less well than the more persuasive Lunar tactics elsewhere.

He’s not proselytizing Yelmalio, he’s suppressing Orlanth worship. He is using his cadre of Yelmalio worshipers to prevent the Orlanthi from accessing their holy sites and performing their rites by force, same as the Lunars have the Sun Domers doing at the Hill of Orlanth Victorious after Starbrow’s rebellion. It’s antagonistic, sure, but doesn’t involve forcing people to initiate into a different cult, I don’t think most gods would accept initiations done under duress rather than a genuine call to them.

49 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is no mention of Dog Orlanthi in Far Point, and no mention of Yelmalios until Harvar Ironfist builds his Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur.  I'm certain that both of these anomalies would rate a mention somewhere if they were valid.

Again, they are of Tarshite culture and speak Tarshite. This is pointed out explicitly, they are originally from Tarsh. Tarshites mostly come from Saird, Holay, Vanch, Aggar, and elsewhere in Peloria’s barbarian belt. This is a significant cultural difference from the Heortlings who constitute most of Sartar’s population and is notable enough to warrant mention.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is it just another rendition of the small sun but based in the Grazelands? As Hipster noted - Jardan is the Grazelander's little sun?

If you look at my post, Jardan isn’t the little sun, he’s Yelm the Archer (initiate subcult) and offers a way to Yelm’s shaman path, as laid out in the RQG core book.

Golden Bow is also said to be the name of a Grazer warrior society, one of their leaders is featured in a minor role in the eponymous adventure of the Smoking Ruin adventure book.