hipsterinspace

1 hour ago, g33k said:

In any case, re-reading this thread makes me want to create an "urban shaman" type who is kinda  exactly opposite  most of the fantasy / rpg "shaman-hermit in the wilderness" & "semi-pariah weirdo" tropes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-umABjuNHo

I envision a hardcore townie, with few-to-none of the classic "survival" hunter/gatherer skills, and a surprisingly-strong social skills.

That’s definitely pretty easy with Daka Fal and the typically very strong Man rune that comes with his cult. Plus, veneration of the ancestors is an important job, and I’d imagine dealing with that for Esrolian noble houses in Nochet could be quite lucrative.

38 minutes ago, davecake said:

But in 'modern' Glorantha, Gustbran is the spirit of the kiln as well as the forge, and initiates of Gustbran are also the guild members of the smiths and potters guilds, and that gives them enough initiates to maintain a temple in the city, and the spirit of the kiln is probably the allied spirit of the guild master, who is also a priest. Animism is kind of part of the whole bronze age world view, and is distinct from shamanic traditions. 

Gustbran isn’t the spirit of kilns and forges, he’s the god of kilns and forges. I would imagine most big kilns and forges would house the guild’s wyter or a similar community spirit in them rather than the allied spirit of a single member. While the guild master is likely to be the wyter’s priest, that’s a very different relationship. A big reason to have a shaman around for that sort of thing would be to find a suitably powerful and intelligent local spirit that is willing to function as the wyter.

Cities are bound to have a very dense spirit ecology. There’s a lot of stuff there, and while you can control for some of those things theistically, it probably helps quite a lot to have shamans for things like propitiating vermin spirits and their beast children, ensuring the drinking wells remain uncontaminated, resolving curses, and keeping the ghost density under control. It’s a different (perhaps less glamorous) niche, possibly analogous to the role a cult like Yinkin might have in a city: still hunters, but the hunters of rats and other pests.

It isn't a skill check, it uses a different table. In this case a range of 51-00—which includes the autofail range—is a good thing.

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Just thoughts, hopefully relevant to the OP's campaign planning.

It's a two-year-old thread that you revived, so I doubt it remains a pressing concern.

As for how to run the initiation itself, I think David's advice is really the best that anyone can ask for:

Quote

[T]he initiation should encompass all three aspects, likely as a test. So the first story would be Uleria courts (who ever is available). Any player of a different cult can play the opposite role. The second could be whenever a group is made, so Uleria's presence at the group's clan making or other bonding moment. Propagation part is causing something to reproduce in the quest.

Heroquests being impressions and archetypes rather than strict stages like King of Dragon Pass means you can do some really interesting stuff with this, especially given Uleria's breadth.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I was talking about reciprocal initiation originally . . . whether the Uleria rites directly translate to Ernalda / Dendara mysteries or why not. Is she a separate entity or simply singing their songs in a different octave, as it were. This is not a trivial question because she . . . and not Ernalda, much less Dendara . . . owns  and so answering the question might reveal something important about that rune in the world right now

They are friendly, but, per Well of Daliath, Uleria has no associates. They can participate in rites together without much difficulty, but how could you ask a mother to choose her favorite child?

5 hours ago, svensson said:

And another curve ball is herd-men. They keep their Man Rune, obviously, but what others might they affiliate with if given intelligence? Earth maybe?

My understanding is that the thing that makes herd men what they are is that they lack the man rune. They are beasts, and if alter creature is cast on a normal human of another tribe—as the Morokanth are said to do—it turns them into a herd man by effectively taking away their man rune. If given the man rune and brought to sentience I would imagine most herd men would possess a runic affinity with Darkness, the affinity the Morokanth have and the herd men would have had in the event of their triumph over the Morokanth. 

6 hours ago, svensson said:

Insofar as I know, this is the ONLY ritual/HeroQuest/whatever can actually remove the Chaos Rune from someone's being, from their Form. The only other ritual that I know of that has similar power to so drastically alter a being's very nature is the Uz Adoption Rite of Kyger Litor.

There is a post from Greg’s archive on Well of Daliath that strikes me as important here. He made the point that chaos taint is a wound in your soul, and that the problem with getting rid of it is that it’s already an absence, a void. The big challenge in the whole process of getting rid of it is that it has to be replaced with something else, a very difficult prospect. Magasta filled the void left in the world by the implosion of The Spike, I suppose in the same way he may have also used that ancient and powerful aspect of water to fill the void in the Cleansed One’s soul.

A possibly more dramatic transformation than the Kyger Litor rite is the Aldrya rite that turns you into an elf. Kyger Litor is still a man rune deity, the Aldrya rite takes away your beast rune and replaces it with plant.

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Also, Humakt used to teach Bladesharp for free, but I can't remember if that was Lay Members or Initiates.

Initiates can get up to 4 points for free in the RQG rules.

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's a picture in Wyrms Footprints p42 about death-hounds carrying the Sun down to the underworld and mentions this is part of Orlanth's Sword Story.  It's not that much of a leap to identify Telmor as carrying down the Sun.

That sounds more like Jajagappa than Telmor, he’s the psychopomp of the Solar pantheon. That would still be an interesting identification for would-be God Learners to try to make.

6 minutes ago, Eff said:

I would assume that, even if the priesthood offers the girlfriend/boyfriend experience, that the goddess embraces all kinds of sex workers, because it's still intimacy created by the exchange of money. It's like the three entrances to her temple- that's a sex joke. Anything built atop that is built atop the foundation of "Uleria's temples have three entrances just like her body has three holes, har de har", which doesn't invalidate the exegesis, but should, in my opinion, remind us that Uleria is universal and beyond propriety or respectability. Or ought to be. 

The Well of Daliath article on New Pavis seems to disagree.

There’s no need to use watered down terms. Uleria courtesans are sacred companions – hetaira – and not simple streetwalkers. I’m sure there are plenty of those as well.

The importance of of the Courtesan skill to her cult seems to speak to that distinction. Perhaps other sex workers are lay members of Uleria, but her initiated cult seem to be distinct in some ways.

4 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I would have sworn blind that there is a myth somewhere about Telmor having eaten / slain the Sun somewhere, but having spent a bit of time trying to find it again, I've had no success.

The Coming Storm mentions it in their section about the Telmori religion.

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

If Uleria is the Old Survivor, the cup from which the whole world was poured, perhaps she is the chief god of Chaos.

Uleria is an illuminated goddess and was present at the birth of all gods, including when the Unholy Trio birthed Wakboth the Devil. Thed supplied the fertility for the ritual in practical terms, but Uleria was there.

54 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I do think it is inconsistent with the background literature to try to make Uleria a chaste goddess. She is clearly not chaste, as the examples of her initiates show, and an initiate's goal is to better conform to the example of the god.  And while that may bother some of you reading this, it doesn't bother Uleria.  It doesn't bother her initiates either, and that may be one of the life changing secrets learned in initiation.

The original poster said that this thread is the result of a player who chose to create a Ulerian Adventurer.  To me that is a good indication of the nature of play the player seeks.  Why shouldn't the GM play along if he or she wishes?  After all the game is a shared creation.

She is not chaste by any means, she is also the physical act of love, the love of the body. Her priesthood exercise sex as a sacred bond and a ritual art, but more than sex, they offer companionship, they are hetaera not pornoi. The point I’m making here isn’t that Uleria is chaste, she very plainly isn’t, it’s that she is much more than sex. Sex is just one manifestation of her gifts of life and love. This is why her temples have three entrances for the public, in addition to the sacred bordello—emphasis there on sacred—there are also baths and a place to eat a communal meal. A focus on the sex aspect to the exclusion of other things doesn’t make her lurid or risqué, it makes her boring.

3 hours ago, John Biles said:

I expect Uleria survived by manifesting among her worshippers in the little pockets of stability which survived in the Darkness and using her magic to ensure they could grow food and eat even in the dark.

Uleria survived because she is present whenever anything is joined together and something new is created. She is the primordial force that creates all living things, including every mortal from the meanest broo to the most exalted Talar. She is there wherever love exists, whether that's romance, friendship, or the bonds of kin and community. She survived because life and love survived, where those things are present she simply exists as a fact. I would argue that she doesn't even need worship, she is immanent everywhere, that is what her runes mean:.

I think this misses the point. Uleria's net is love, that is why love can be disruptive and maddening. She doesn't offer the boggles sex, she offers them love, those can be very different things. The elements of every myth are as much literal as they are metaphorical and the nature of the rites will depend on the situation and the quester.

46 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Do you think they could stand in for Boggles?  

I would think that ongoing kinstrife, the fearful people of your community in the middle of a crisis, or even a particularly long and heated lovers quarrel is more likely to be the stand-in for Boggles than an orgy of tricksters (to say nothing of the fact that having more than one trickster around is tempting fate). The Ulerian then offers of herself to stop the spread of disorder, fear, and hatred using the power of love, sometimes at great personal risk. The lesson of the myth is that sometimes you can only overcome those ugly intractable things with love, not with indifference, changing perspective, deception, appeasement, lofty pronouncements, or violence. It also alludes to the fact that sometimes love brings forth disorder, the dangers of being consumed by passion.

Uleria is love. She is love in all forms, and while certainly romantic love is part, so is love for one's friends and community, and perhaps most importantly a mother's love. Uleria is the mother of all life and its primordial force, she is the mother of Grandfather Mortal and loves all of her children. While people tend to get hung up on it, Uleria is far, far more than the physical "act of love" between people, but that is only the easiest part to understand.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

i would count that as an individual exception. Neutral means dual membership is permitted under exceptional circumstances; if that permission becomes routine, it is hard to argue that the relationship remains neutral.

Dual initiation is unusual, but most people have no need for a second cult. As far as I'm aware, if it is permitted by cult compatibility and the cult hierarchy, all that someone would need to do to initiate into a second cult is to convince the examiners of their worthiness. As the Telmori provide bodyguards to the Prince of Sartar, would it not be in the Telmori's interest to be the most effective bodyguards possible? Would it not be in the Humakt cult's interest to swear the protectors of the Prince to their code of honor?

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

That is far too many Humakti to all be individual exceptions, or to have no path of advancement to Rune Level.

Who says they can't be a Sword of Humakt? They are not shamans, the people who serve as priests among the Telmori, they are warriors. There is nothing preventing them from being priests or rune lords of another cult. If they are initiates of Humakt in good standing, there should be nothing preventing them from moving up in the cult hierarchy if they possess the necessary skills and commitments.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

In fact, as i understand it, the reasons the numbers add up to 100, is because all of those are, as a matter of routine, exclusive options at the initiate level. The rare exceptions are rare enough to not trouble the statistics. Unlike city-dwellers, rural Telmori simply don't have a variety of temples they can choose to visit several of in parallel. The second nearest temple to where they live may well be a full days travel away. And they are very likely not going to be welcome if they did show up.

If all Telmori are initiated to Telmor upon their adulthood, I would suggest that the Telmor entry there is maybe more correctly Telmor Only. As the guards of the Prince, the Telmori had a significant persistent presence in Boldhome and would have access to the temples there. In their own lands they have enough worshippers to maintain their own shrines and small temples. Nothing says a temple has to be a building or even confined to a single place, one of the most famous Humakti temples in Sartar, the Temple of the Wooden Sword, was itinerant.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

Also, being a travelling Issaries trader wouldn't be realistically possible if they involuntarily transformed.

It's worth pointing out that upon their transformation they don't become insensate monsters. They might be fearsome, but they're not going around mauling innocent Heortling children. It might not be wise to try their hand at being a travelling merchant, sure, but Issaries is also (and maybe more importantly) a god of messengers and diplomats. His cult creates channels of neutral communication and assures fair-dealing between parties. It's in everyone's interest to have the Issaries cult around to negotiate and resolve disputes.

53 minutes ago, radmonger said:

And that would normally mean leaving the Telmor cult, as they can no longer participate in Telmori worship ceremonies, regain wolfbrother magic, and so on. At best you leave on friendly terms and don't get formally exiled, or suffer from the spirit of reprisal.

This is not at all the case. Sora Goodseller, for example, is a cultist of both Issaries and Yelmalio. They are not associates or even mutually friendly cults, but she is a priestess of Issaries and still participates in Yelmalio’s rites (as a Yelmalio initiate, Issaries doesn’t factor). Initiates of one cult can initiate into a neutral second cult with the permission of their temple hierarchy, it’s in the rulebook. Apostasy is only necessary when trying to initiate into hostile or enemy cults (like Orlanth and Seven Mothers).

53 minutes ago, radmonger said:

The only way round this is if the Telmori Humakti are actually worshipping a local variant, who is actually friendly to Telmor, and so would routinely grant permission for joint worship.  But personally I prefer the interpreation where Humakt is true to his nature.

They don’t worship jointly, why would they need to?

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, it too is confusing: it contradicts the rules for fighting to "First Blood".  Naimless was clearly wounded first (when her shield was sheared away), since, afterwards,  "Naimless used Healing to put her fingers back in place".

If you want to take it totally literally, if her fingers were broken there’s a good chance she didn’t actually lose any blood.

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

To quote RQ;G: an initiate may partake only of rituals in their own cult, or its associated and friendly cults. Humakt, of course, has no associated or friendly cults.

The bestiary entry on wolf brothers says anyone born to Telmori parents is automatically initiated. So the documented existence of Terlmori Humakti would appear to be in contradiction with one or the other.

As you say, they can only partake in the rituals of their own cult, or its associated and friendly cults. By initiating into Humakt, Humakt becomes their cult as well. This just means they couldn’t participate in Telmor’s rituals as only a Humakti, or Humakt’s rituals as only a Telmori. Initiation into both gives them full access to both, they are fully Humakti and Telmori at the same time.

They are able to join the cult of Humakt as an initiate of Telmor, just as they are able to join the cults of Issaries, Chalana Arroy, and Seven Mothers. Because all of those cults are only neutral towards Telmor, that requires the initiand to secure permission from both of the cults, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t be initiated as a Telmori.

There’s an account of a duel between Nameless and Alain at Tourney Altar in Cults of Prax that’s pretty good. It paints a nice picture of how they both make creative use of magic in an attempt to gain an advantage over the other.

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone have a guess as to a Burn Troll - Troll Immolation spell?

Is it a divine/rune spell or is it like spirit magic? Does the troll catch fire and burn for a number of melee rounds and they take damage from like a fire elemental at the end of each melee round or something different?

Possibly its a special ignite that burns skin somehow? Is it only good for trolls?

Humakti get access to the spirit magic spell Fireblade, a very powerful spell as spirit magic goes, I’d say this is probably most straightforwardly covered by that. If you want to go the hero cult rune spell route with it, the spell Suppress Lodril offers a pretty strong template to work from.

On 3/13/2023 at 10:12 PM, Enthar said:

Further, being a refugee from D&D 5e (as I am, after the kafuffle of a few months ago), she objects to being a swordswomen in full plate with a shield, who happens to cast a bit of sorcery if they have time.  RQG sorcerers definitely are not battle casters and she is learning that the hard way, but perhaps with even a few rounds preparation before a fray she can feel that she contributes without becoming another 'yet another Rune Lord.'

It really sounds like the type of character she should be looking into is a shaman if she wants to cast on the fly. They win pretty easily in terms of both the versatility and economy of their magic when compared to just about anyone. I’m sure you’ve noticed that the ubiquity of magic in RQ makes for a very different experience than casters being what amounts to magic artillery pieces in D&D, but a shaman with Spell Barrage 3 or 4 and Disruption gets pretty close.

The group I play in has a Lunar sorcerer who uses Moonfire (against massed enemies) and Conflagration (against one really tough enemy) pretty frequently and to good effect depending on the phase of the moon, but it’s something that relies on combats that are either so large-scale that the immediate attention is going to be focused away from him, or with enough advance notice that he can drop it on or before the first round. It doesn’t seem very fun to spend 3 melee rounds casting and boosting something that you really wanted 3 rounds ago.

Rather than illusion + command, for a shield it seems like it would probably be more fitting for it to be stasis + illusion + combine + command if you’re calling upon an illusion to allow you to actively stop something. It likely wouldn’t be as effective as a real (physical) shield and would take a lot of MP to make it last long enough to prepare in advance while still being able to protect from more than a very minor wound.

Maybe having simply stasis + command/summon would make sense if you remove the illusory component, though the lack of an active component would probably mean it functions more along the lines of protection/parry spirit magic. That might actually be a lot more useful for a sorcery spell you’re usually expected to cast significantly in advance. That kind of advance preparation is usually preferable with something that takes so long to cast and has the potential for such extreme durations.

6 hours ago, Enthar said:

Lightning Stroke (Air)(Summon)

2pts

Ranged, Instant

Starting from the hands (or other appendage) of the sorcerer, and forming a column 1 meter in diameter and 9 meters long, a stroke of lighting is formed for an instant, followed by a thunderclap as the stroke dissipates.  The stroke inflicts damage to the general hit points of anyone in the area, with the amount determined by consulting the Sorcery Strength table.   Neither armor nor spells that protect against physical damage are effective against this spell, though Countermagic, Reflect, and Castback work.  For each level of strength added to the spell, the length affected increases by 1 meter. The stroke may light nearby flammable materials, and the thunder clap afterwards may deafen anyone struck for 1d10+5 rounds if the strength of the spell overcomes their Con on the resistance table.

I’d definitely go with @jajagappa’s suggestion of adding Fire and Combine. I’d also probably require either a POW vs POW (or in this case Spell Intensity) in order to deal direct magical damage to hit points, or, more likely, rule that it deals locational physical damage that requires armor to be bypassed. After all, sorcery is using a materialist perspective to manipulate the physical world, the manifestations are going to be broadly physical in their nature (as opposed to the mythological nature of Orlanth’s Thunderbolt and Lightning).

41 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Do we have rainbows in Prax or Glorantha at all?

Rainbow Girl is a known spirit in Prax, she is the messenger between gods and men. She is the child of air and water and travels on a bridge of rainbows. I think I remember reading somewhere that she’s a spirit of the Thirstless Society. On Well of Daliath her runes are listed as Air, Harmony, and Water. She is described briefly in Nomad Gods but the details on her are pretty sparse.