hipsterinspace

3 hours ago, AlexS said:

the problem we were trying to deal with was that it was the regional allocation of modifiers that felt 'abstracted' to us! Why should all South Esrolians (apart from those who live in Rhigos) get Earth +5%, Farm +10% when the region includes not just the Malthin Valley farming breadbaskets but also places like Dizbos, set in forested hills with a strong Manirian presence?

The answer that seems apparent to me is that it broadly maps to the way of life that the people there follow. As you say, most of South Esrolia is a breadbasket, these are agrarian communities where everyone in some way participates in the planting and harvesting, where the fields and the earth rites act as the substrate of the community. To me the answer here would be for those Manirian populated areas to have their own modifiers representing their way of life and geography, maybe giving them the same modifiers as the Manirian descended Haradlaro of Longsi Land would make the most sense here.

I think tying it to blessings from before time downplays much of the cosmopolitan character of Esrolia in favor of something less concrete, but I don’t want to insult your vision. The easiest way to adapt it would be to apply these sorts of things to cities, which cults are included in their Ernalda temples as husbands, who receives special veneration.

While this isn’t how I’d do it, I personally much prefer the regional modifiers over an abstracted divine inheritance, if you do want to do this I’d absolutely not do the characteristic bonuses and stick to skills and runes.

Also, I would say replace Hedkoranth with Helemakt for Rain clans and Helemakt with Humakt for the death-y ones. Helemakt is Heler as a warrior, he isn’t very death-y.

In your GM’s position I probably wouldn’t let you do that. I think it’s important to look at the social roles of the cults there. In Prax the nomads are led by the Waha Khans because their survival depends on it, Waha laid out the foundation for their way of life and now his cult works to uphold that covenant. Crucially, Waha is also a deity in his own right and not (just) a hero, he is the son of Storm Bull and Eiritha, with his own mythology and cosmological independence. In god time Rider clans, that role of tribal leader wasn’t filled by an independent cult of Hyalor, the chief was a follower of Elmal who pays respect to the cult hero Hyalor. A powerful and fully developed cult of Hyalor would probably still be a subcult of Yelmalio/Elmal.

Among the Enhyli clan of the Colymar tribe that Rider way of life continues to exist in the third age, one of the only places it does in 1625: they are a settled clan led by an Elmal chieftain, they breed and raise quality horses alongside other livestock, and they have a much more consciously equestrian religious focus than the Sun Dome’s cult of Yelmalio does. This provides some good dramatic potential, Elmal is a god in decline, with much of his cult subsumed by the Sun Domers within living memory.

There are also the Galanini of Ralios, supposedly horse hsunchen, who might fit with the agreement between man and beast rather than domination, but they’re much stranger and they lack much official material.

What I’ve seen typically casts Hyalor as functionally a hero cult of Yelmalio (or Elmal if you’re from the Enhyli or Narri clans of the Colymar tribe) offering the rune spell Command Horse as an associate.

In the core rules the Pure Horse People receive similar abilities directly through worship of Yu-Kargzant (who is the father of all horses) rather than through Hyalor as an associate like Yelmalio. The concept might work better as a Yelmalio/Elmal worshipper who isn’t from the Pure Horse Tribe, and if your group are the assumed default of Sartarites of the Colymar Tribe it might be easiest to go with someone from one of the two surviving clans of the Hyaloring Triaty (who are descended from the Hyaloring hero Kuschile).

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

BTW, from Storm Tribe, in the entry for the Hiaa Swordsman sub-cult - "Worshippers fight with sword and shield, even when mounted."

Similarly, in the Kargan write-up - "Despite their protestations, only their swords, and not their other weapons, glow with the Death Light of the Shining Sword."

The writers of the current edition don't seem to give much credence to Storm Tribe, it's no longer part of the canon and for me isn't a compelling case against running with the rules as written. I'll continue to give my players the flexibility within the rules as written in the core book, you're free to do otherwise.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

They could be foot-soldiers as they are recruited from the Vendref rather than the Grazers. 

It's rather difficult to protect a mounted leader while on stuck marching on foot, and I'd imagine the Feathered Horse Queen is likely to be mounted. It just seems to me like a rather bad idea to go into battle or travel long distances without a bodyguard who can keep pace with you.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Rather than Hiia being a Humakti subcult, I think it probable that the Vendref worship Hiia and supplement it with Humakt worship whereas they could do so for other warrior deities (ie Hiia with Yanafal, Hiia with Storm Bull etc)

Everything I've seen lists Hiia as a hero cult of Humakt (including the Well of Daliath entry). It seems like they're a very specialized subcult, bodyguards of the Feathered Horse Queen, in another thread it's mentioned that they're the ones who get the Strongblade rune spell.

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why is it that MGF tends to boil down to "just give the players whatever they want"? One of the reasons I really like RQ is that there is the concept of sacrifice - that you can't just (simply) get everything you want. This way leads to Chalana Arroy priests who charge into battle wielding greatswords, hacking and slashing at any- and everything...

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think the first part of your sentence explains why it's not "arbitrarily" narrow... It's decidedly reasoned and justified in its narrowness.

I resent my invocation of MGF being taken in the most bad faith possible way. I'm not just giving someone whatever they want without cause, I have followed rules as written and I think I gave my justification pretty clearly:

On 11/17/2022 at 12:08 PM, hipsterinspace said:

I think that if the blessed weapon was supposed to be restricted to swords (or even melee weapons), they would have written "bless specific sword" rather than "bless specific weapon". Quite explicitly "any other weapon attack" at 90% is included in the list of potential options to reach the rank of Sword. You must still have 90% in sword, but I'd say the god of killing is a pragmatist and is willing to show favor to whatever tools his followers prefer to use in carrying out his sacred work.

It doesn't mean swords aren't still important, they are clearly the most important cultic object regardless and a 90% is still required to become a Rune Lord, but I'm with soltakss here: Humakt has learned death in many forms and defeated many other gods, if Humakt didn't want someone to use a particular weapon he would give them a geas preventing its use. Almost all of his magic is still dedicated to the use of swords, so taking a gift on a bow is going to give you a lower return if you're just looking to be a munchkin.

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There is another option here... create a character that's actually a Grazelander who's ended up in Orlanthi lands.

There's a notable Humakt subcult among the Grazelanders, Hiia Swordsman, who serve as the bodyguards of the Feathered Horse Queen. I'm guessing they fight as heavy cavalry given their way of life and the duties they are expected to carry out, and as such I'd assume some of them would have a gift for a bow or lance as their preferred tool of Humakt's will.

To include Betimagor I'd probably make him a small hero cult specific to one or two of the tribes, probably a hero of Orlanth, who teaches the Fireblade spirit magic spell at his shrine. The Truesword feat there points at him maybe being a hero of Humakt, but that would invalidate the Thunder Brothers angle given the whole ritual severing thing.

2 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Doesn't the name Tarkalor Trollkiller make you think he'd be one who could make a troll instantaneously combust?!

Tarkalor famously had the Yelmalions beat up the trolls for him and then gave them a bunch of land for their trouble.

3 hours ago, svensson said:

- Humakt's very symbol is the sword Death... not only the Rune, not only the life condition, but the actual physical item

- Humakt's cult weapons [those taught to initiates and required for Sword of Humakt] are swords... not axes, maces, left-handed pandy bats, nothing else.

I think that if the blessed weapon was supposed to be restricted to swords (or even melee weapons), they would have written "bless specific sword" rather than "bless specific weapon". Quite explicitly "any other weapon attack" at 90% is included in the list of potential options to reach the rank of Sword. You must still have 90% in sword, but I'd say the god of killing is a pragmatist and is willing to show favor to whatever tools his followers prefer to use in carrying out his sacred work.

3 hours ago, svensson said:

- One of Humakt's geases [geasa] is 'Use no non-cult weapons'

It's also written in the core book that if they get a geas that contradicts or invalidates one of their previous gifts, they can take a different gift.

3 hours ago, svensson said:

- Archers already have patron deities in both Aldrya and Yelm

That is, if you are an Elf or if you are directly descended from Yelm in the male line, which most PCs aren't. Cult numbers point to the fact that most who practice archery in Orlanthi society are going to follow some aspect of Orlanth.

Maybe it's just because the groups I have played in and run have only ever sparingly engaged in combat encounters, maybe one in five sessions, but a lot of this stuff just seems like getting hung up on a desire to be the best warrior based on damage numbers. I have trouble seeing the problem when there's a whole social order that's built around other cults and their roles in society, with a notable degree of social realism, that make them far more interesting to play than being a sacred killer. If you want to be a killer and that's basically it, Humakt is there.

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Digression hidden, because it is a digression:

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Are there any plausible complete sets of Mothers–Lightbringers equivalences? I could hazard:

1. Danfive Xaron = Issaries (psychopomps)
2. Teelo Norri = Flesh Man (innocent bystanders)
3. Irripi Ontor = Lhankor Mhy (sages)
4. “She Who Waits” = Ginna Jar (though that hasn’t always looked right)

Which leaves, on the one hand, Lunar gods whose utility is clear enough:

• Jakaleel the Witch (ZZ, trollish, and shamanic connections)
• Queen Deezola (now an Earth priestess, but in a previous iteration dedicated to the Sun Spider)
• Yanafal Tarnils (a Humakti)

… and on the other, Lightbringers who seem poor “evil twins” for them:

• Orlanth
• Chalana Arroy
• Eurmal

Yanafal Tarnils = Orlanth (the leader)
Deezola = Chalana Arroy (the healer)
Jakaleel = Issaries (the psychopomp)
Teelo Norri = Flesh Man (the sacrifice)
Irippi Ontor = Lhankor Mhy (the scholar)
Danfive Xaron = Eurmal (the trickster, perhaps he failed because he didn't betray the others)
She Who Waits = Ginna Jar (the unknowable other)

Which certainly hints that perhaps Danfive Xaron is one of the few entities who takes penitence and contrition as so fundamental to his mythic identity that it becomes all that he is, maybe even to the point of being an obstacle in his original mythic task.

Orvanlarnste and the Little Great One from the Sartar Companion are a lot of fun, and I've actually used that for a few fun little side vignettes in RQG. Really great bit of flavor.

53 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

As we always and still do play RQ3 I never thought that a Sanctify allowed Divine spells to be regained.

I have never played RQ3, but the way my groups have played RQG have always allowed for regaining rune points through worship in a sanctified place under appropriate circumstances.

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Depends.  If I am playing a character from an actual archery cult, it's not fun that the Humakti character not only outshines me in melee, as is to be expected, they also outshine me in my specialty.

It would be MGF if the Humakti could talk with snakes, fly, resurrect people, and speak many languages.  Doesn't make it right...

You're intentionally using what I said in bad faith: when it comes to the rules as written I try to apply the wording in a way that is fun and doesn't punish my players for doing something that is interesting and that they would like to do. I think it's worth pointing out that there isn't a cult that is solely about archery, those cults with archery aspects are Solar cults which have the additional utility that comes with having a host of other attendant celestial magics. Humakt is THE killer, he is incarnated death in its manifold forms and that's basically it. Sure, it isn't "balanced", but you have a bunch of examples of the writers of the game stating outright that it isn't written around balance, if you want to play a human blender you play a Humakti, the other cults are better at many other things and fill different social and mythic roles.

I think you have to consider MGF, and to me it's MGF to have it on the bow and not the arrow. As a GM I have not placed restrictions on Humakti weapon choice because Humakt is death and death takes many forms. While that form is a sword mythically and it's the most important cultic weapon, to exclude other means is arbitrarily narrow and silly to me, it's not MGF. I'd say there's a reason Humakti get "any other weapon attack" as one of their 90% skill choices to qualify for becoming a Sword of Humakt in the core rules, and I have a had a Humakti with a gift on a bow in my game.

Having it broken down between Entruli/Wenelian (tribal Orlanthi, maybe Trader Princes and Handra) and Slontan (more explicitly Western in worldview and way of life) might make sense if given a sort of broad brush of cultural expectations and stereotypes. You could always do local modifiers like the homelands in the core book to flesh it out more.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

If this was true, then Arkat wouldn't be considered a Traitor by the Malkioni for joining Humakt.  In fact Arkay would likely have worshipped Humakt for most of his life since becoming a Hrestoli. 

I think the big difference is that Arkat wasn't a Malkioni, he was a Brithini. When you contextualize it with his Hrestolism I think it makes sense, ultimately he was a Hrestoli acting in the service of justice.

As for the bigger question of the pagan gods, they probably contextualize their relationship with the gods differently. Maybe their relationship with the god is more instrumental than it would be for a non-Malkioni, but the big difference seems to be in the understanding of the gods as an emanation of the runes. I'd imagine that for them Humakt isn't a literal divine personage who owns the Death rune, but rather an emanation of the Death rune from primordial Law (Invisible God), which has been mythically personified into the archetype of Humakt.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

It makes no sense, given they could literally have built them during the God Learner period, and yet we know that the Orlanth Pantheon existed before time, and the Malkioni don't control it, despite the God Learner period. [...] Or why not a completely different Pantheon based on the abstract concepts of Sorcery?

See: Zistor.

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There must be areas where these pseudo ascended masters that are really pagan deities are never worshipped within Malkioni lands.

Loskalm seems like the most prominent example. I'd imagine the "Brithini" mortals of God Forgot are another. They aren't worshiped among the Zzaburi or the Talars most places, the exceptions being places where there has been significant syncretism. As I see it, that "purist core" is ultimately going to be found in their social order rather than something territorial. Even if the Dronar worship Barntar or a river god, they still pay their homage to the Talar and support the magic of the Zzaburi, they can still socially locate themselves as Dronar. To me it doesn't sound sustainable, even just logistically, to ask people to support that social order, and a magical elite atop it, while also being denied any assistive magic of their own to make that exact task possible.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Malkionism is pretty clear on the point that worshipping Pagan deities is wrong.

I believe the main workaround is that the gods they worship are technically their ancestors, which likely means their approach to them is different enough that it’s acceptable to the Rokari wizard caste. Also worth noting that most of the Malkioni are assimilated pagans and hsunchen, not of Brithini or Danmalistani descent, giving them pretty wide access to cults that are useful in carrying out the tasks demanded of dronar and horali. I’m guessing some Irensevalists have different ideas about what is permissible, especially the Loskalmi, and with the henotheists, Jonatelans, Trader Princes, and Aeolians you have a much more significant syncretism at every level.

26 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Doesn't have the spells for it.

He has the myths.

The only case of an uninitiated adult I can remember from the RQG materials is Nerestina from the Pegasus Plateau adventure book, which stood out as odd to me. She’s labeled as a “spirit seeker”, but that’s left without elaboration or qualification.

As an aside, there are some genuinely very interesting LM heroquests in BoHM. 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

A myth without a final success....that is different.  

The final success is still there if maybe rather ambiguous. It’s a myth of a divine messenger figure, and the story is about bringing everyone together to fight for what’s left, in their own ways, until the dawn breaks. The myth’s circumstances echo my group’s current challenges, perseverance in the Great Darkness standing in for the ceaseless violence we have witnessed on the borders of the Kingdom of War and our attempts at forming a unity army to oppose them despite their tremendous strength advantage in both men and magic.

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Publish it!  We have a shortage of usable myths.  I wouldn't know where to find even one for Heler.

Hi, I'm the player/author in question. For anything Orlanthi I highly recommend plumbing the Stafford Library's Book of Heortling Mythology and Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses for ideas (even if it isn't entirely canon and the myths are archaic for the Third Age). I'm also a big believer in the idea that if you can't find something interesting, make something up! I drew up my own very non-canon myth about a divine messenger (that there's almost no published material about) based on a few different influences because it fits with what the character I play does—diplomacy and communication—and how she manifests her devotion to her god(dess). It was fun writing it and even more fun running it with the group, and I can definitely see myself writing another myth to heroquest at the next big milestone, probably marriage if she can find a nice gal to settle down with.

Here's the text of the myth in a spoiler so it doesn't dominate the thread:

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

As a spirit cult yes, anyone can worship him. He has his own mountain home in Prax (see GtG 453)

This still seems to be a clear difference in kind. Heler is a deity, however minor in the third age, with an independent cult and separate mythology and cosmology. Lightning Boy is a spirit cult and constituent part of Orlanth. Rain is Heler, Heler is rain (along with some other things). If rainwater is the source of the Oslira, and especially if Rain is the associate rune spell granted, then it would seem apparent that the associate deity should be Heler: the rivers are Heler’s children returning to the sea.

It seems at odds with what Jeff explicitly said regarding the relative importance of Heler vs Lightning Boy.

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Heler is a minor cult, and mostly worshipped through Orlanth Thunderous. As an associate of Orlanth,  he teaches Rain to Orlanth Thunderous.

So Heler is Orlanth's rain. Orlanth Thunderous is the associate cult of Oslira, not Heler.

It's like Orlanth's Lightning is Lightning Boy, another minor cult.

Is Lightning Boy cosmologically independent from Orlanth in the same way? As far as I understand, Heler may be a rather small cult in Dragon Pass, but is nonetheless still an independent cult (and entity) with a larger presence in Esrolia and Maniria. Maybe it has changed in the gods book but, unlike the spell Lightning, Rain is only granted to Storm Voices and only as an associate spell through Heler in the core book.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Orlanth Thunderous's rains are the source of the Oslira...

Wouldn't that still be Heler, even if Orlanth Thunderous is the intercessor for the rain?

On 9/6/2022 at 7:13 AM, Nick Brooke said:

There's a male Vingan in RQ3's Dorastor: Land of Doom. I thought that was pretty silly at the time, but YGWofcV. (Berra Thengan, chief houscarl: uses male pronouns, see pic on p.90). Yes, "Berra" can be a boy's name too.

He very well might be part of the more Sworn Virgin and less Red Sonja portion of Vinga's cult, someone who is vingan gendered in an explicitly transmasculine sense.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

1.  What do Heortlings qualify as a neuter person?  (a) To whom does this extend?  (b) To whom might it extend, but in fact does not?

2.  Which deity oversees the rites for neuter people in Heortling society?

I think it’s important to distinguish very clearly between people who identify as the neuter gender versus people who are incapable of sexual reproduction. There are plenty of historical examples of eunuchs who clearly still identified as men and would not have considered themselves to be socially a category apart despite their inability to reproduce (which is also why I think it’s also helpful to semantically distinguish male fertile/sexed from “man” or perhaps more clearly “orlanthi gendered”). Those people still fall broadly into the bimodality of the Orlanth-Ernalda social complex, but in cases far outside of the 85% “all” there might be a different rite or ceremony to be called upon, be it with the shamans or an unusual cult.

When it comes to the neuter gender role that’s a more complicated issue, and perhaps intentionally lacking a singular figure as a representative. In some cases I’d think a person might be called to Humakt, in other cases Eurmal, probably rather often they’re called to shamanic pursuits, there are a lot of possible answers. Those who occupy that sixth gender role don’t seem to be implied to be infertile, I’d imagine that the majority of them are just outside of socially established gender categories rather than being reproductively sterile.

47 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So any form of infertility is going to be either spiritual or economic in nature. Either noone wants to spend the RP on you, or if they did it would simply heal you to back to how you already are.

The rune spell Waste Loins in the Red Book presents a clear example of how that might transpire.