Malin

I really do love the idea of "legendary weapons" heirlooms or magical items having their own ransom. Though I suppose if I was a bandit, I wouldn't keep anything that made me worry that whoever I had caught would be coming after me to get it back. Sure, I'll keep the pack animals, but that named steed with the expensive tack? Hmmm too risky.

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think a [non priest but with about the same "runic abilities" ] occupation may be defined for players who want to play the "actual priest" but free from any/a lot of the actual priest's duties.

Isn't that just a god-talker pretty much? Nothing says they can't get an allied spirit, just that it is rare.

- puts on wargaming glasses to read the rules and what they actually say -

Looking through the cult books, it looks like things vary quite a bit between the various Shaman paths. Some are very tied to tribe or cult, others looks like there might be choices.

Take Waha for example. There it says:

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The Waha cult has shamans that serve as Rune Priests. They are less of a magical priesthood than they are a social hierarchy maintaining order in the tribes. Strict cult functions are more directed to tribal rule than magical or spiritual salvation.

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A qualified candidate who can awaken their fetch and become a full shaman (RuneQuest, pages 354–355) automatically becomes a Rune Priest of Waha, should they desire it.

"Should they desire it" makes it sound to me that someone initiated to a shaman on Waha's path might choose not to become a rune priest. And if they didn't, it doesn't sound like they would have the same responsibilities as one?

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Restrictions
A shaman must take on four shamanic taboos. They are not allowed to marry any foreign women. They are not allowed to eat any meat on Claydays. They may not hunt birds, gather eggs, or sew. Once in their life, shamans must make pilgrimage to the Devil’s Marsh and kill something of chaos.

As seen, there is no fixed 90% time restriction there, I don't see why it would be impossible according to the rules for a Waha shaman to wander as long as they don't accept the rune priest position and becomes part of the clan hierarchy.

And then we have Daka Fal:

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The Shaman-Priests of Daka Fal form the core of the cult. The size of the active cult will depend entirely upon their personal success or failure and their CHA.

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An initiate of Daka Fal who knows Spirit Speech at 90% can seek to become a Shaman-Priest of Daka Fal. The candidate must go off alone during Sacred Time and cast Axis Mundi. A random ancestor (see Ancestral Spirits, page 85) then engages the candidate in spirit combat to test the would-be Shaman-Priest’s worthiness. The ancestor’s Spirit Combat skill is equal to its POW×5. If the candidate can defeat the ancestor and reduce its magic points to 0, the spirit teaches the candidate the secrets of Daka Fal and awakens their fetch. The candidate becomes a full shaman (RuneQuest, pages 351–363) and must choose shamanic abilities and taboos.

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Restrictions
Shaman-Priests are required to give 1 magic point per week to each of their bound spirits. The magic points may come from themselves or from their worshipers. Only then will each of the spirits remain loyal and present.

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Benefits
Shaman-Priests benefit by getting considerable magical power under their command without becoming an outcast like normal shamans. It is often the only channel of power for warriors with little status or property outside of the established noble and priestly families.

And here, we have an entirely different way of initiating and a complete focus on ancestor spirits. Here, it seems like the shaman themselves are the focus of their little cult, and it is up to them how powerful they can get. The spirits are their community they feed and are responsible for.

In contrast, there is Pamalt:

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Restrictions
Shamans of Pamalt may not become Chieftains and are normally barred from becoming priests. Shamans must give 90% of their time and income to the cult. Physical health and wellbeing are essential to the core of shamanic practice. Debilitating practices should be avoided, such as ingesting too powerful poisons or tonics, remaining in a state of intoxication, or offering sacrifice to gods other than Pamalt.

Who is very much the heart of the community with the 90% demand. No way out of it, you even automatically become one if you are a shaman already and joins the Pamalt cult. You do not operate outside society then.

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I think those were the shaman paths that are described in the cult books, where we know more details about stuff.

And then in the full book we have the sentences I think everyone focuses on:

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A shaman’s first obligation is to their tribe or cult. This takes precedence over all other obligations. A shaman only adventures when it is necessary to the tribe or cult.

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There is no leave of absence from being a shaman. Once tied into the Spirit World, there is no leaving, ever, except by being cast out from the tribe or cult.

However, exactly what that is seems to vary. None of the currently described shaman paths are exactly the same. I have two shamans (well, one is still assistant) in two different campaigns.

One is a Daka Fal follower, an outcast of his tribe, but literally carrying some of his ancestor's bones with him. His teacher is a spirit, and his main duty as a Shaman is to his ancestors and their memory, which also now means making some babies so the family line can continue... Summon Spirit teacher is a fun spell to stand in for a mentor until he manages to initiate fully.

The other is from a Spirit Cult tradition, there the cult is the spirit cult, and it wants worship and to be spread. Making the cult grow is the main thing, and to do that he needs to travel and tell tales of the spirit, and try to get others to worship it. Takes up a lot of time, yes, but also makes a character that can, indeed must, travel.

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As for Priests and God-Talkers, I can't see how a priest is very workable in a more globetrotting campaign; having adventures to faraway places now and then won't be hard (we need you to go to XXX and ascertain if it really is the holy relic YYY that has been found and bring it back if it is, or we need you to go and support this other temple for a few seasons because the ehad priestess is gravely sick and we suspect shenanigans), but I see being a priest means that you want a community-focused campaign at heart.

If you want to be more free, god-talker is the way to go, almost the same benefits, and much more open to travel and adventure, the classic wandering preacher.

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Neither are gallivanting off to Prax just for the fun of it. (Which is the issue - PCs generally heading off to wherever they want, for whatever reason they want).

I'm not picking on you personally (I really am not), but this comment made me wonder about how people play. I never really imagined this might be a problem for a group at all. I am just so used to there being a dialogue between the group and gamemaster about what they want to do in a campaign, both from the first session of building a group of characters that will work together and where they might head off after that.

In the groups I play, the players might want to experience Prax and would tell the GM, "Hey, it would be cool to go to Prax sometimes!" The GM would then be able to think and plan a hook to let that particular group go there that would fit the campaign. I got that wish a while ago: "Hey, we wanna go to the Plateau of Statues and do some treasure hunting!" This is a bit outside their normal militia duties, so I needed to come up with some good reasons, and a couple of sessions later, we were heading there. It's not like they were saying at the start of a session, "We're going to the Wastes today, so I will start packing."

It feels like some people read the rules as a document forbidding them to do things rather than as one enabling them to do cool shit they might never have considered before.

Maybe that's what we need a GM's guide for: to give people tips and examples on how to build something together and see limitations and bonds as adventure hooks and ideas rather than boundaries you can never color outside. And so many problems could be avoided by just building a group that will gel from the start (it doesn't have to be homogenous at all) and talk about what style you want to play. I never start a campaign without sending out a campaign premise to the players, especially if I've never played with them before, and they don't know Glorantha. I got some if people want to see what I am talking about, or perhaps that is a different thread.

I guess it just struck me as strange that situations like this are seen as a problem.

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

ALL our PCs in RQ2 and 3 would think of having steading full of groupies as something that would put a frikkin' halt to an adventuring life.

Oh, I would have loved climbing to the level of being able to have even a single groupie! But yeah, adventuring back then truly felt like digging treasure to be able to afford some beer and bread at the end of the day after paying your taxes. Very salt of the earth, the lowest rung on the ladder type. Or perhaps our GM was just mean... (just kidding, we loved it).

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

And it's very different to the main example that we have out there to the public - The White Bull Campaign - in which there is a full shaman with no societal responsibilities at all and no explanation as to why. Unless I missed it.

I went back and read the rule book, and this is what it says:

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Vishi Dunn swore loyalty to the White Bull. When one of his kinsmen opposed allying with Argrath, Vishi killed him. Now he is called Kinslayer, a nickname he does not deny. Vishi followed Argrath and Jaldon to liberate Pavis, and befriended Vasana. He accompanied her back to Dragon Pass. He is intensely loyal to Argrath, almost a zealot.

So from the look, Vishi Dunn's community is the White Bull, and like all the other pregen characters that seems to be his society. Not Waha. Not his tribe. But the White Bull. He wasn't even initiated by a Waha shaman. So, where he goes, he goes because Argrath wills it, as part of another group of characters working for the goals of the White Bull. Being a zealot, certainly sounds like spending 90% of his time working for his community.

I think for me, the interesting game mechanic with rune levels (no matter the type) is the inherent tension between community and individual ambition. Exactly how that works depends a lot on the GM and the campaign; there is no way to write rules that can be applied easily in every circumstance. What is "working for the community?" Exactly what you agree to that it is. Nobody but the GM and the player is going to be able to define that. If there weren't any tension there, it would just be like reaching high levels in DnD, more power but without anything connected to it.

In fact, our GM (I also play in campaigns) told us a session or two ago: "Do NOT shoot down your plans beforehand and tell me why they won't work. That's my job. Believe in yourself." I am very prone to dissecting things according to the rules and going 'Oh this will probably not work because...' and it was a relief to hear that, so I could swat down my brain for a while.

In my main Sun County campaign, we are now approaching the stage where people are actively pursuing both herodom and rune levels. It is going to be interesting to see how the players will juggle their varied responsibilities because something will eventually have to give. There has been talk of leaving the community they have been a part of so far, since they are growing too big for their sleepy little countryside village of Sandheart, and they feel that they will soon have left it in a better place when they arrived, and can move on and still feeling like it would be on good terms. However, there are some interesting conflicts set up:

The Yelmalio Light Servant is getting more deeply involved in the White Bull cult, and his praxian heritage. In addition, there's the old Sun Dragon heresy he is digging far too deeply into, and his growing disdain with the current Count. Something will have to give; he's juggled things admiringly so far, but with more power comes people expecting more from you, and choices will need to be made.

The Babeester Gor is dead set on becoming a rune lady. To the point of having made a list of all, she needs to learn, and is researching heroquests to help her master certain skills outside her wheelhouse. Super ambitious. However, at the same time she has fallen in love and is planning to get married and start a household, something which is nothing but an obstacle to what she needs to do to become and stay a runelady. She is illuminated, which helps this divide as her fertility rune is growing independently of her death rune right now, but cults doesn't care about how well you can manage your inner turmoil. Only what you can do in practice. As a GM I can see a point where the demands of Babeester Gor will collide with her love of family. Something will have to give. She is also pondering starting a mercenary band, which would give the group a new community to gather around, which would be more supportive to the kind of life she wants to live.

And then there is our shaman, newly initiated but outside of any community. He was initiated by an outcast shaman, someone who had been thrown out of their tribe, so he has no responsibilities but also no allies and friends other than the group, which makes every trip to the spirit realm or heroplane very risky and without backup. The tradition is none of the main ones in the book, so I had to make up some things on the spot. He's originally an Orlanthi, but this shaman path has nothing to do with the wind. He's completed his goal of initiation now, but what to do next is unclear.

Would I have half as fun GMing if "leveling up" in your chosen cult paths didn't come with bonds and ties? No. For me, the fun is figuring out why and how this could work for the group.

That being said, I can see people reading the description and going, "90% of the time, my character will be out of my control and also have no money, so it is time to retire them," which isn't something that the rules say. The shorthand can just easily be taken that way.

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Storm Bulls literally experience pain in the presence of Chaos. Yet another reason to drink, I guess.

And now I am thinking how that is probably a reason why most Storm Bulls prefer the wilderness. Any chaos they feel can be either moved away from quickly or eliminated. In a city, just locating what the problem is without offending everyone and causing a major scene might be hard. No wonder they're annoyed if they're lowkey hurting half the time.

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Am I just  mis-remembering  that the term was also used in the RQ2/RQ3 era, in one or more of the books set on the Zola Fel?

Possibly, or I have been missing the term, think I first read it here on the forum.. There is a giant otter in River of Cradles, but the term Lutrai is not used there, and it's unclear if it is intelligent or not. The text describes it as giving more Lassie vibes, a really smart animal.

9 hours ago, svensson said:

Would you guys like me to upload a file with all that?

Please do!

Thank you for this, I had forgotten all about giant otters 😅

Need to go add them in....

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

(later tried the third series, though, and gave up about 1.5 books into it)

Yeah, those four books needed to be three, and they didn't really take off until the last two books for me. Luckily, I am a fast reader.

50 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

The Glorantha setting seems to have all the ingredients for a profound skepticism about the land and its heroes, but I get the feeling (I may be wrong) that that is a cake its chefs don’t want to bake.

They write the recipes; it's we who bake the cake 😁

It is interesting the kind of things we take from books. I picked up the Power that Preserves (the third book) translated (very well) to swedish when I was... fourteen maybe? During the summer? The first two were lent out, so I started with book three (I often did things like that), fell in love, finally got to read and reread all three in order. Got obsessed, reread them some more (I do that). Then I found out there was a second trilogy, but it was only published in English. I was, at that point, an extremely average English language student who had read a single book in English (which I had already read in Swedish, Watership Down). But I bought the books, read and reread them during the summer (oh boy, not the most simple english language in those) and when I started high school I was a top English language student.

Anyway...  for me, the books really struck a chord, in so many ways. The main character was one reason, I think these were the first book I read where I realized that I wasn't supposed to like or sympathize with the protagonist, which was such a freeing experience. Being... on the spectrum, as people say these days, I rarely sympathized with main characters anyway, more often obsessing over some side character or a villain. For me, this was the first time I read books where those kinds of assholes got to have their own story. Books I felt spoke more directly to me than other, more liked, literature. But never mind, that is the beauty of books: they all have their readers, and as I often say, it is one of those books I like but will never recommend to anybody.

I would still never use the world as a setting.

Why? Because the world is written for the story, the tensions it holds depend on it. Without the center, it is just a normal fantasy world with some cool naming conventions. However, there are a LOT of ideas to steal! Many of them rhyme quite well with RQ in fact... Hmm. Might have to go back and do some rereading, 'cause I've got some future heroquests to build.

Look, some of us love unrelenting misery....

35 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Presumably, this LM has a family solely for the purpose of being able to dictate findings into the library post mortem. I wouldn’t want to be one of the kids.

Has no one mastered summoning non-ancestors? That sounds like a worthwhile research programme, right? To get the stories of the childless and those whose lines have been expunged, doesn’t that sound like the LM way? Let nothing be lost!

A Lhankhor Mhy delving deep into shamanism and ancestor worshipping instead of sorcery. I approve!

Not gonna lie, I need to introduce this guy in my campaign now.

2 hours ago, Manunancy said:

Accept only married researchers who have childrens - that gives a fallback solutions with 'summon ancestors' magic.

I am now imagining one last misson for an aging and dying Lhankhor Mhy scholar. Make a starmap of hell, and then make sure their descendants summon them to get all the details... I'm kinda getting invested in this guy now.

Look, all I am hearing is that somewhere, there is a Lhankhor Mhy trying to desperately fund their next research expedition...

I think for me, part of the fun with Glorantha is playing in cultures with less modern sensetivities. Trying to figure out what a culture would be like once you investigate the surface statements and see how everything fits together. Yelmalio (Sun County) culture has been fascinating to delve into like that, trying to find out all the hows and the whys of everything.

A very tangential echo of this might be how the Lunars managed to "kill" Orlanth and Ernalda in Dragon Pass, leading to the Windstop. Acts on the mundane plane temporarily affecting the local otherworld, needing to be undone by more heroquesting.

Once we finish editing, me and a friend of mine have a massive Sun County supplement coming out (Life and Traditions Under the Sun Dome) dealing with Yelmalian culture, what makes the people of Sun County tick, and how to play and have fun within that kind of (in many people's eyes) extreme culture.

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Come foreigner, visit Sun County, the only nation in Glorantha that passed The Solitude of Testing. See the living light of Sun Dome, travel the easily accessible road network, enjoy our surplus of food, our stoic unity, and our fully adequate culture. Come for the holy days, witness our drill parades, leave when we tell you to! Sun County - the safest, hardest working and most envied nation in Glorantha. You wish you were us! (Sun County Travel Bureau)

The moment this is out I will give you my money, it looks awesome!

This looks very much like a classic case of specifying too much in the source material (the Earth Cult book).

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Mundane Benefits: Initiates of Ernalda are under the protection of Ernalda’s local husband. The local priestess will cast Bless Crops upon their lands.

The vagueness of the first statement (being under the protection) works fine, because it is up to everyone in game exactly what that means and how it applies, while the super specificness of the second one in describing a game action "cast Bless Crops" rather than something equally general like "The local priestess will ensure Ernalda's blessing are upon their lands" where the exact nature of this could be worked out in game. 

It might be an artifact from before the Bless Crops/Pregnancy rules were clarified, but even then, it is uncertain whether it would work. How many hides belong to the village the priestess and her assistant are responsible for? Ten? A hundred? The number of runepoints becomes unfeasible fast, even with assistants.

One way of dealing with this which I don't think is explicitly against the rules (correct me if I am wrong) would be to have the local priestess lead the blessing of the fields, just as is described in many more local volumes (the fertility stones in sun county etc) and cast the Bless Crop spell in cooperation with the owner of the fields. The Priestess (or one of her assistants) hold the knowledge, but the rune points are supplied by the people who will actually be working the fields. Just like many people can help with enchanting items and other larger ceremonies. I feel that way, the rules could stand as written, without the priestess having to lock up her own rune points. And the family members could sacrifice a rune point per hide, which would not be too heavy a burden if spread among several people.

21 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Please remember that I want to lay this book out. If you let someone else do it, or do it yourself, I will be very jealous.

And it is at this point I realized that you were just not being nice 😅. I'll dm!

I have so many ideas for Sur'Enslib and the whole Darjini part of the Lunar empire, but sadly no time...