Ageha

I do not personally agree with this. The source material makes very definitive statements about Esrolia, explicitly states it is populated by an Orlanthi people who practise an Orlanthi culture but happen to revere Ernalda above Orlanth. Nochet is clearly not Dara Happan since the populace are stated outright to be Orlanthi, not Pelorian. I think this isn't strictly relevant to what I am discussins as I'm discussing population groups as specified by the canon books. To use your metaphor: it is agreed things like 'English' and 'Japanese' identity exist. Wearing a suit is not considered to make you part of either identity. Similarly, I am discussing Pelorian the cultural population as specified in the canon books. I have to disagree. Though all empires practise it to differing extents, for sure, and though all empires are, unsurprisingly, a complex mix of practises, to act as if Rome was unique is simply factually incorrect. Empires from the bronze age utilized this system, client kingdoms existed expressly for it. It was why Achaemenids would maintain local rulers in subjuated territories, why Alexander appointed Iranians to continue as administrators, even gave Atrapatene his own entire kingdom. Alexander's willingness to adopt and embrace local rulers even angered many of his own commanders. Rome 'exceptionalism' is a common historical myth, but the broad scholarly consensus is that all empires practise a mixture of exclusion and inclusion, in varying amounts, for sure, but it is simply not true that Rome was a unique or sui generis case of this. That they certainly improved on certain ideas, of course, all empires, all states, are in a constant flux of both improvement on prior ideas and regression, actual empires and states are organic things, not static. But the idea had been employed from the days of the Achaemends (and before) and was employed by numerous empires both prior, post and contemporaneously with Rome. The idea that Rome's collapse was largely due to some specific inability to assimilate Germanic migrants is also not widely agreed upon anymore, far too restrictive and reductive a view is the general opinion, and a much larger net of factors are usually agreed as causing it. It is a staple of imperialism to coopt and exploit via integration of certain groups to the advantage of the imperial metropole. But, of course, as all empires are diverse, complex, confusing mixes of policies and actions what you will see when studying any empire's history is a combination of these practises, and the reverse of them, being employed. On these grounds I do not fully agree with your assertion. Rome certainly utilized several innovative systems of administration, as did their successors and predecessors, but they were by no means alone in this among 'pre-modern empires'. If the Lunar Empire is meant to be more like Rome, which I completely do agree with, then it is even more surprising to me that the Provinces which have been under its rule for four centuries are still explicitly stated to be Orlanthi-populated Orlanthi-culture areas. That none of them are now dominated by a people who have culturally assimilated to be considered Pelorian by the guide, is surprising. I believe the one example of this that exists is Carmania, whose population are expressly now considered Pelorian due to cultural assimilation. In the same way as large populations in Fronela and Ralios are considered Orlanthi. Southern Peloria is, per the Guide to Glorantha, explicitly described as being predominantly populated by Orlanthi peoples with an Orlanthi culture. If it was a blend, as you are saying, it would not be described like that. It would then be described as different, unique, culture. It is not. The guide is explicitly clear on this. Southern Peloria is simply outright stated to be Orlanthi. Again, I'm not discussing cults or such. I'm discussing the cultural populations. What you provide here are primaily hypothetical or potential distant, vague, connections and hints. The Guide to Glorantha states outright that, canonically, there is no Pelorian cultural outside Peloria. That southern Peloria is Orlanthi culturally and not Pelorian. The guide is very clear on this. Thank you for everyone's insights. I appreciate the thoughtful feedback I have recieved from all. At this point I am satisfied. Though differences might remain on smaller points I am satisfied with my position that Peloria has no imperial legacy and that its treatment (or I should rather say role) in the narrative is just something that will not sit well with me and upset me whenever I have to deal with it. For that reason, I will remain to my earlier conviction, though wonderfully creative Runequest is not for me. Because internet discussions have a tendency to just go on and on forever and cycle back and deviate into tangents, and I don't have the constitution for it, I'm just letting everyone know then that I'm bowing out. Obviously feel free to talk still among yourselves here if you'd like, but I'm satisfied with the responses I've gotten an the consensus on the main, broad, point I wanted to clarify myself. In particular thank you a lot to Sir_Godspeed and Ali the Helering for actually putting into words some of what I wanted to say better than I could. Thank you to everyone!

No, I am clearly not expressing myself clearly, my apologies. I will try to express more clearly what I meant here: What they are stupid for is not realizing the importance of coopeting other groups into imperial building projects. This is a core pillar of all empire building in recorded history. From Egyptian use of Kush and 'Libya', Macedonian incorporation of Greek and later Iranian states, Roman use of auxillaries and client kingdoms etc. etc. every large empire building project in history comes to recognize the importance, and utility, of coopeting certain groups/states/factions which are foreign to their own. Typically, often, this involves granting greater largesse to those groups, or a significant role in the system of power not afforded to other groups. If Pelorians have not yet realized this and just try to enforce their own direct hegemony with no coopting of other local players to their advantage then I can start to see why they have never really managed to construct any signficant empire. Convincing peoples that they are active participants in, and members of, an imperial identity over simply subjects has been a core tactic of imperialism throughout history. But as it has been broadly agreed that there is no real claim to Pelorian imperial legacy, this does make sense. They aren't good at empire building and so, unsurprisingly, they've never succeeded at it much compared to the Orlanthi, Malkioni or, more recently, the Pentans. I don't understand the 'dominating Peloria for 16 centuries' thing. During the Council already southern Peloria (the Pelorian Hills) was ruled by the Council, not Pelorians/Dara Happa. I could not find anywhere that it seems to indicate Dara Happa/Peloria influence ever managed to extend into southern Peloria until the 3 Brothers Who Divided the World. I am a little surprised southern Peloria is still so Orlanthi not Pelorian, considering it was a core part of this division, it once more seems to reinforce this thing where Orlanthi culture spreads and becomes the dominant culture of regions but even when Pelorians rule a region for centuries for some reason they do not become the dominant culture as described by the guide to Glorantha. I feel what is true, for sure, is that Dara Happa has been the dominant force in northern Peloria for most of the past 16 centuries. But, at least based on what I've read so far so I always stand to be corrected, southern Peloria seems only to have been under their overall dominance since the 3 Brothers Who Divided the World and, even then, considering when the Lunar Empire arrives to the provinces they are described, uniformly, as Orlanthi-culture, Orlanthi-worshiping peoples, it is clear that Dara Happa/Peloria did not dominate the region long even at that point. That is fine and interesting to hear, but it is not what I am talking about in this case. I am talking about the actual spread of the cultural group. Per Guide To Glorantha Vol 1 Pelorian is the 4th smallest major culture, behind Orlanthi (which is first), Fonritian, Krloleran and Western. Pelorian is also, per the Guide, one of, if not the, single most contained culture (outside Praxian), with absolutely no spread outside of Peloria whatsoever. That is what I am discussing. The actual growth of the culture as a population. The Guide is very clear that southern Peloria is explicitly stated to be populated by Orlanthi peoples, not Pelorian peoples, for example. I do not fully agree with what you say here. Centralized systems of governance based off the concept of a strict class division as you are describing proved in actual human history to be incredibly effective at spreading to other lands and cultures. Usually, as all successful empires do, by simply coopting a conquered elite to emulate the same urban status and then the relationship naturally molded itself as even without central governance 'urban elite' ruling over 'large agricultural class' occurred naturally in societies everywhere. Agreed completely. I would think even 'most prominent' extends only to northern Peloria at most, not all of Peloria. No, because France is an actual place with actual people and far, far more complex than that, whilst this is a fictional story and game with a narrative where one invests in the narrative and the components thereof. I would never describe any real place as 'sucking' because reality isn't a story. When I play warhammer and cheer on my factions victory that does not mean in the real world I want to see war and death. There is a fundamental difference between investing in a fictional narrative and the real world. As for would the opinions change: that would depend on what is presented. The core thing, at the moment, is just that, as has been discussed here now, Dara Happa/Peloria has no real claims of imperial legacy outside before time began. They have only ever been a small region fought over and conquered by larger polities (Pentans/Dorastor/Orlanthi/Malkioni) until the brief anomaly of the Lunar Empire which, we already know, just winds up destroyed by Orlanthi again. I think, in the end, although some differences do persist, we have at least largely gained consensus on the broad idea: Peloria has never been a major imperial centre and thus its claims to such, repeated as objective by source books, are incorrect. I don't really know if that can be changed because it is the result of the existing history. Sure, this is the impression I get which then is exactly why I do not like this particular aspect of the world building. I dislike whenever a fictional world presenting as a pseudo-history decides to include nations and people just to be losers to laugh at and be stupid. It is simply something I do not enjoy at all. How you have expressed it here is a very good summation of my current feelings on it, I thank you for that, I appreciate it a lot. Being landlocked certainly would have an impact, but to describe China such as this is, I believe, just inaccurate. Furthermore, Chinese cultural expansion is massive, not contained only to a small core area at all, so I don't really see it as comparable to Peloria personally. The Guide explicitly does and that is good enough for me personally. It is a core canonical document. If it says all those peoples can be discussed under the umbrella of a broad 'Pelorian Culture' just as all the different Orlanthi groups can, then I accept that as canonical. Dara Happa/Pelorians only control northern Peloria, not all of Peloria. Also, again, I am not discussing religions. I am discussing the culture. Pelorians do not have to worship Yelm just as Orlanthi do not have to worship Orlanth. I have to disagree with this I am afraid. 'Ancient Egypt' was a massively expansionistic empire in their time. During the Bronze Age they expanded across the entire Levant, to their west and down the length of the Nile. They grew to be one of the largest empires of the entire period, rivaled only at times by the Hittites and the Assyrians. Egypt was absolutely a massive expansionist empire during its heyday, quite literally one of the great empire builders of the time period in the near east, subjugating many lands and peoples far-and-wide. Agreed with this 100% absolutely. We differ on this, I am sure, but I absolutely cannot stand Jar-Eel for personal reasons. I will admit, on a tangent unrelated to the topic but which occurred to me recently, it is very, very, funny that the faith which is all about legitimate authority and imperial mandate is not even a major power of the explicitly called 'Imperial Age'. With the Imperial Powers being explicitly Orlanthi and Malkioni. Fire/Sky faith must certainly have the award for most deluded of the major pantheons in the setting, the Storm Pantheon and the God Learners are considerably better at the concept and execution of authority and imperialism than they are. Which is funny considering how much the Storm Pantheon likes to cast itself as anti-imperialist, but are probably the single most successful group of imperialists in the setting, either just behind, just ahead or tied with the Malkioni.

This is exactly what I mean. Yes. Other than Athens, briefly, the many polises of Greece extended little imperial hegemonic power beyond their region, as compared to the Achaemenids, until the Macedonian Empire of the Argeads carried the process of Hellenization across much of the Mediterranean and Near East. Earlier I discussed with someone else also how, comparable to Mesopotamia, Dara Happa has served as an important location, but one fought over by empires, typically Orlanthi, Malkioni or Pentan in nature. Never itself a serious hegemonic force (until the Lunar Empire, which we know will end poorly for them and with first Pentan, then Orlanthi hegemony restored). I would also have previously loved to see Dara Happan specifically, but Pelorian more generally, culture be a more vibrant and influential force, but I have come to accept that simply will not be. For whatever reasons Pelorian culture could not even in 400 years spread to become the dominant culture of the Lunar Provinces, so Pelorian culture just does not seem to spread well. But, sincerely, I'm glad you understand what I mean. I really, truly, appreciate it. I'll be honest, again, this just makes the Pelorians sound dumb to me again. Okay! This is what I mean, I am glad for the confirmation. Thank you. Would it not be more accurate, though, to say 'northern' Peloria? Since Vanch, Talastar, Hoolay, Aggar, Imther and the Lunar Provinces as a whole are stated to be dominated by Orlanthi peoples in the Guide to Glorantha vol 1 and per Mythology: Cults in almost all of them worship of Orlanth still exceeds even Seven Mothers combined. I understand completely, the fault was mine for not immediately clamping down on digressions and actually also taking part in discussions about them. I am keenly aware now that this is a touchy subject, this is why I felt responsible to at least say something on it. I apologize for that. I don't feel personally attacked at all save for the one accusation of being a troll. Other than that, I think everyone has just brought up their points and whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant because everyone should be free to do so. I am a little sad just because this topic makes me sad, but that is just me, it has nothing to do with anyone else. I think Glorantha is truly a lovely setting. There are few, if any, settings I've ever seen with such sheer originally and innovation. Being Bronze Age is also refreshing. Again, just to be clear, regardless of how I might dislike this one part, I think Glorantha, Runequest, is objectively amazing when it comes to world building. Your Glorantha Will Vary is a really cool adage and a good one for people who play any sort of TTRPG in general, I think. I do think, for me, it is just not enough but, perhaps I will change my mind. I am in a bad headspace at the moment so perhaps when I feel better I will find that I am able to still engage by simply focusing on the things I do like and trying to ignore the parts which make me sad. I just do not know, but I appreciate the kind words, thank you.

So, this has happened a few times now, I am going to just say the following: I have already emphasized that I am not using 'survival' as a criterion for success because I am talking about its lack of success as a dominant hegemonic imperial power, which it is described as in the books. In addition, as has been pointed out at the top of this page, Orlanthi culture has often endured for very long, so I do not think Peloria has any particular claim to longevity compared to numerous other cultures within Glorantha. Empires rising and falling has no bearing on my point either as all empires always rise and fall, that does not mean we cannot discuss their hegemonic influence. If, your statement is just: Dara Happa counts as 'successfull' because the Tripolis are still extant the I fully agree with you that, by your metric, Dara Happa is successful. But that is not the point I am discussing. I would also say that the fact that the greatest city building culture does not even have the greatest city, is definitley a mark against them. I don't mean to troll, at all. I mean it genuinely when I say, even if I don't like some parts of it, I still think the lore building in Runequest is easily amongst the most innovative, creative and just all around best I've ever seen. It deserves to be lauded, it is really, really good. I just happen to have a personal dislike for an integral part of it which means I can appreciate the quality of it, but do not enjoy it as much as others do. I don't dislike the Orlanthi. I don't particularly love the Pelorians. The easiest way to describe my sentiments is simply: I feel bad for the Pelorians because upon my reading of the lore they seem to be consistently used as a punching bag to allow (usually but not always) Orlanthi to appear 'superior' by comparison. It is feeling sad, rather than a like/dislike for any particular group that motivates me. No. In this case there is one genuine mistake from my side and what appears to be a misunderstanding from yours: (1) When I mentioned Kethaela I was simply mistaken. I went back, a bit confused why you mentioned Kethaela, saw where I made the error. I meant Esrolia was a region where Orlanthi culture was dominant, Storm worship is not relevant to me, what matters is the cultures. It is why I discussed this as Peloria rather than Yelm worshiping. (2) There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding what I have said on Pent. So, to put it very succinctly from my side: (a) The fact that Sheng Seleris' Pentan empire is also eventually defeated by Orlanthi was what I discussed (2) Again, my interest is not specifically in 'Storm worshipers' against 'Sun worshipers', it is about Pelorian culture suffering. Thus, Pentan conquest of Peloria, the same as Malkioni and Orlanthi, are all part of what I am discussing. That is why I started this thread not by asking why 'Solars suck' but 'why do Pelorians suck'. Dara Happa is not all, or even most, Solar Worship. I've explicitly said so now in this thread multiple times. Again, my point concerns Pelorian culture. Not Sun Worship. Again: I have specified I am only concerned with Pelorian culture. Non-Pelorian hegemons, such as the Celestial Empire of Sheng Seleris, is simply not applicable to my point. In addition, Sheng, the substantive non-DH Solar power, is still ultimately simply defeated and destroyed yet again by an Orlanthi polity. As I have said I am not discussing 'survival' as a criterion for imperial hegemonic success. None of the Pelorian empires, until the Lunar Empire, even secure all of Peloria. The Lunar Empire is still vastly smaller than, for example, the EWF. We also already know the Lunar Empire will be defeated and destroyed by the Orlanthi and that the Provinces will come under the rule of Sartar, an Orlanthi hegemon. I also really just want to say this so that there is no misunderstanding: My point is not about Sun Pantheon v Storm Pantheon. I totally get there is a connection, so that is why the discussions easily get mixed up, by me as well. But I am only concerned with Pelorian culture as discussed in the Guide to Glorantha. So, discussions of Kralolera, Pent, Teshnos etc. etc. are simply not relevant to me.

Hey, thanks, I do really appreciate the sentiment. Same to you! I also think, just in general, I don't know if there is really more to say. At this point I think we've kind of covered everything and reached the conclusions. Thanks to everyone, appreciate the feedback a lot!

Yeah, I agree with this portrayal of them, they are very dumb. They cling to a past they never had. They are the perennial losers of all imperial conflict around Genertela's core and have never been true rivals for Orlanthi, Malkioni or Pentan empires. As everyone knows only Orlanthi are allowed to kick butts, Pelorians should stay in their lane and just keep losing or convert already. Losing is about the only thing they are good at since even their greatest cities are inferior to an Orlanthi one. The 'barbarians' literally already outbuild them. Said group did then immediately come back, kick the Broken Council's butt, and reassert itself over the whole region. What I'm talking about here is regions which were conquered into the Orlanthi cultural sphere kicking out that influence and adopting a different dominant culture. Again, for me, a core part of this comes down to one easily observable fact in the Guides to Glorantha: many, many regions of the world which were not Orlanthi have been described as, through a process of conquest and conversion, being made Orlanthi now but the reverse never happens anywhere. It would nice to see that the reverse sometimes happens. Per Guide to Glorantha 1 not a single region of Glorantha, outside of northern Peloria, has a Pelorian culture. So, whilst I'm sure what you are describing here is interesting, my core problem remains that Peloria is described as a hegemonic core but has none of the material markers (cultural conversion and expansion of subjugated regions) of a hegemonic core. This part is where I don't fully agree, the rest I think makes sense. But describing 'Storm' as the frontier just doesn't accord for me with the historical record we're given. That 'Storm' was the heart of the council which Dara Happa, on the periphery, usurped. If anything, Dara Happa here played the role of the power on the periphery that finds advantage in backwardness. Said advantage didn't last long either since Dara Happa was relatively quickly defeated and conquered by said 'storm' post which, in the 2nd Age, the explicit age of Great Empires, Dara Happa wasn't even one of the Great Empires, the Carmanians and (far more) the Orlanthi EWF were. Thus, Dara Happa, the 'Sun' seems far more to me to be the power on the periphery, trying to survive in isolation, only to be routinely crushed by the 'Storm', whilst the 'Storm' is the heart of vast empires which dominate much of the globe and have converted much of the world to their culture. So, personally, I do not quick agree with a 'Storm' as frontier conception. I think in many ways 'Storm' is quite clearly the metropole. I also think this is clearly born out by the material markers of history. It is Air Pantheon culture and religion which has gone on to dominate more of the world than any other group and has converted more peoples than any other groups. Much as we measure the influence of, for example, English as dominant as a lingua franca, and English-language media as determinant of pop culture, this stems from its role as part of the culture of two successive dominant hegemons. Put another way: if you see one particular culture/faith/language seemingly more widespread and dominant than any other then, in history, we can tell that is the hegemonic force. Orlanthi culture is the only culture in Glorantha to have successfully converted whole other regions to their culture, even the homelands of others, Pelorian, conversely, have only ever managed to convert Carmanians to a Pelorian culture. The gulf between the two forces is vast and, to me, the Orlanthi 'Storm' far better suits the criterion of hegemonic and imperial power. Here I will have to disagree strongly. Imperial rule does, without fail, change cultural conditions. The Assyrian empire made decisive changes in the cultural composition of several Mesopotamian city-states and, far more clearly, Achaemenid rule over virtually all the near-east saw Iranian influences become predominant in many places and a general spread and flourishing of those cultures. Alexandrian is perhaps the clearest example of all of those with the lengthy period in history we call the Hellenization of the Near East being directly the result of Alexander's conquests and the resulting Diadochi. It is definitely true that different empires practice different levels of cultural conversion (the Achaemenids were quite famous for their tolerance) all empires cause cultural conversion simply by stint of existing. As subjects recognize certain cultural techniques as advantageous, who simply wish to adopt the mores of their conquerors, all empires engender cultural conversion. You use Imther as an example, per Guide to Glorantha 1 Imther is culturally Orlanthi, no mention is made of any other cultural group, and it falls under the Lunar Provinces section which simply describes the Provinces as primarily speaking Theyalan, being of the Orlanthi culture predominantly, structured along Orlanthi lines and as having, prior to the Lunar Empire, mostly worshiped Orlanth and now worshiping mostly Barntar and Ernalda. This, again, seems to reinforce that Peloria and Sky have little significant impact, despite 400 years of banning Orlanth worship. Conversely we know Orlanthi in many regions they controlled simply converted those regions to be culturally and religious Orlanthi, so I find the failure of Pelorians to do this in the Provinces over an almost half-a-millenium strange, personally. Imther also, in Mythology: Cults, still has more worshipers given than either Yelmalio or the Seven Mothers (there are no Yelm worshipers at all given) and only Ernalda exceeds Orlanth worship in Imther per the book. For me, again, the thing I dislike is that whilst we see Orlanthi culture expand and grow, described explicitly per the books as Orlanthi, to overwhelm regions and become dominant, even in half of Peloria itself, we see and are told nothing similar from the Pelorians (save for Carmania) anywhere, even when the Lunar Empire seems to be the first Pelorian regime to ever extend to new regions and thus, I would have thought, that just like Orlanthi had achieved Pelorians could also then achieve the cultural conversion of areas to being described now as Pelorian with Sky Worship predominant. But it just doesn't happen. It goes back to my earlier point where it can come across as if Orlanthi alone are the only group of people allowed to change the cultural and religious dominance of a region. That this also means Pelorian has shrunk to only half of Peloria itself is a pity, but borne out also by the fact that the official numbers give Pelorian as, by a fair margin, the smallest and least widespread of all Genertela's cultures and religions. I agree that Peloria is fascinating. It is part of why I have come to not really want to play since upon reading the books this region I thought was fascinating seemed to almost always just be used to show how cool Orlanthi are. I am sure the Solar and Lunar books might expand things, but with the history that is given I just don't know how much they can do, particularly since we already know the Lunar Empire is just destroyed. I am sure what will come will be innovative and detailed (Runequest always is!) but I just don't personally think it will do much to change Peloria's role in the narrative as a punching bag for all its neighbours and the weakest of the power centres on Genertela. That is, however, just my opinion and I definitely hope I am wrong. Yeah, like I said above when talking with French Desperate Windchild, 'good guys' was the wrong word for me to use. What I mean is 'protagonist'. That's the word I should have used since I certainly do not think the Orlanthi or Orlanth are morally good guys or anything, they are just clearly the protagonists of the setting and history. I also don't quite agree with the idea that they are 'disorder' as such. Orlanthi are, frequently, the organizing force behind massive hegemonic empires, from the EWF to Argarth, which is quite clearly not a case of being 'disordered' in my opinion. Sure, but the difference is that Mesopotamia becomes the prize of empires, not the cradle. Mesopotamia, by the Achaemenids, is no longer thought of as being a centre of power in of itself. No-one thinks Mesopotamian peoples are a powerful polity. What happens is that other, powerful, empires from the Iranian Plateau, Macedon, Italy and the Arabian Peninsula instead see it as a region vital to the expansion of their power. That's what I'm trying to say here. Thinking of Dara Happa/Peloria as a powerful hegemonic force, as is stated in the books, is incorrect. It should, instead, be thought of in the same way me and you are discussing Mesopotamia here: the prize of powerful Malkioni, Orlanthi and Pentan empires. But, Pelorians themselves, are not powerful in any hegemonic sense. As for the Yelm point, lovely metaphor, and it demonstrates exactly what I mean then. Yelm's 'zenith' is very small. The largest Pelorian Empire ever only extended as far as half of Dragon Pass, whilst Arkat and the EWF took Orlanthi hegemon far, far beyond that. The metaphor is an exact example of what I mean by the fact that the Pelorians/Dara Happans/Yelmites seem to always suck. My personal tastes: I don't like that. I don't mind Orlanth, I thnik the idea of Orlanth is cool. I dislike that things are so one-sided and I've said as much outright in my previous posts, the 2nd one in particular. It just isn't too my tastes. Particularly when a side effect of it is to, in the narrative, make the non-Orlanthi cultures and such (particularly the Pelorians as their persistent rivals) look pathetic and honestly just evil be comparison. As for dealing with Dara Happa 'narrowly', as you say, I'd honestly then welcome if you could say what you'd think is a 'broader' context. For my part I'm just going primarily by the text of the Guide to Glorantha. It explicitly says per each region what the dominant culture/faith and such is. That's mostly what I'm drawing my context from here with further info from the main sourcebook and the Mythology books. I'm using Guide to Glorantha here. It explicitly gives Pelorian as a specific ethnic group and gives its location as only the northern half of Peloria. Orlanthi, similarly, is presented as an ethnic group within the guide with a much, much wider range. Since these divisions are explicitly formalized and given in the Guide to Glorantha Volume 1 it is what I am going to stick with. It certainly isn't the case for all peoples of Glorantha but I never said it was the caes for all peoples of Glorantha. However, having 'ambitions' I don't think can be equated to actual material markers of imperial hegemony. Peloria lacks those for the most part. Again, let us use that last bit you mention 'they are always trying to institute and extend their political organizations and cults imperially,' but we know they have done very little of that relative to Orlanthi culture. The Guide to Glorantha Volume 1 explicitly notes that Orlanthi culture and religion has spread through Dragon Pass, through Prax, through Western Genertela, through southern Peloria and parts of Pamaltela. Pelorian culture, and influence, is meanwhile restricted almost completely (outside of two cities in the Arrolian estates) to northern Peloria. So, even by this measure you are mentioning, Orlanthi culture/religion does far, far more of this than Pelorians have ever done. This is what I mean by the clear difference in material markers of imperial hegemon. Here we'll just have to disagree. There seems broad consensus that the EWF can be described as Orlanthi, Arkat I'm happy to say can be called less certainly so, but we do no specifically that it was Orlanthi who subjugated Peloria. As for Orlanthi fighting against Orlanthi: we discussed this earlier and the fact that there is always infighting in cultures does not stop something from being a hegemon. There are Pelorians who fight against the Lunar Empire, Dara Happa has consistent infighting, that doesn't stop them being Pelorian states in my opinion. If we use the metric of 'if any member of a culture ever has infighting the hegemon does not count of that culture' then no state will ever qualify. But they aren't described as Orlanthi-Pelorians. They are explicitly called Orlanthi which is in the book also first detailed as a cultural group. Or, let me put it this way, if this is true then why are the southern Pelorian peoples not called Pelorian? A conscious decision was clearly made to say these people were Orlanthi, not Pelorian. The Mythology: Cults books presents worship of Storm Pantheon as more prevalent than Sky Pantheon in all the Provinces but Hoolay, if what you were saying is true then this would not be the case. Regardless, it still then means that we see virtually no Pelorian cultural expansion anywhere, save Carmania, relevant to Peloria. I guess here the thing is, because I think there is truth to what you say even if, I must be honest, it makes me feel like the answer is just that the Pelorians are really, really stupid, which is not something I like, but I get that as you say gods being real would change things. Agreed. They would. I can see sort of the logic you are laying out too. But, by the same logic, if gods are real, it means that if I see my gods losing, I have direct material incentive to swap to a stronger god. When my gods are real, quantifiable, things with demonstrable results and I can see that in a big war Storm pantheon virtually always overpowers Sky pantheon, then I now have an incentive, motivted by my real gods, to swap to stronger gods who will deliver my state more power. I, further, need not fear repercussions as I know already my new pantheon is stronger than my old pantheon and thus can protect me from them. So, I get what you are saying to an extent, but I feel it will cut in multiple directions, not just the one you sketch out. To build on your example: if my home is conquered by Rome I didn't literally see Jove defeat Mithra, so my faith is not inherently shaken (though very often conquered peoples will convert to the faith of their conquerors anyway). But, if I'm Pelorian, I see my Sky Pantheon defeated by the Storm pantheon again, my home conquered and Yelm and all his sons powerless to do anything as, for the 2nd time, his entire blessed realm is subjugated under the Air Pantheon, I am clearly now seeing my god, who is real, is weaker than this other god who is real. This means that there just is no rational reason not to swap to the stronger god. I will be stronger. My home will be safer and I need not fear retaliation because I already know my new god is stronger. That's sort of what I mean, I hope it makes sense. It isn't, this is my genuine feelings on the matter. So, from my side, I do want to make clear I'm not discussing if Peloria/Dara Happa is 'interesting or not'. I think it is interesting. I think the amount of fleshing out done in Runequest means that even regions which aren't focused on in Glorantha are still actually quite fascinating.

The Mesopotamia influence is clear, agreed. I certainly also agree it must be intentional to an extent. But I do think the characterization you make here of successive empires 'arising' from Mesopotamia is not wholly accurate. Akkadians, Babylonians and Assyrians emerged from Mesopotamia proper. The Achaemenids did not, the Seleucids did not, the Parthians did not, the Sassanians did not neither did the Caliphate. Post the Achaemenid conquest of Mesopotamia the region itself never gave rise to powerful hegemonic forces ever again. This is akin to the discussion above about how the Greek Polises ceased to be hegemonic forces. Mesopotamia became a region of great importance to conquering empires for it was very useful for a number of regions, but from the Achaemenids on there is never again the concept that a 'Mesopotamian' polity it a hegemonic force or that Mesopotamia is the origin of great empires. Instead Mespotamia became a region of great value to powerful, foreign, empires who often made it central to their ambitions due to the utility it had. In this it is akin to Egypt. Post Achaemenid conquest there is never again considered to be a powerful hegemonic pull or force in Egypt or arising from it, but Egypt is absolutely vital to the ambitions of powerful empires due, primarily, to its agricultural wealth. Thus, respective Iranian, Hellenic, Roman and eventually Arabic empires all come to dominate it. I would actually have preferred to see, then, Dara Happa play this role out as Mesopotamia did. By the 2nd or 3rd conquest by a foreign power the idea that Dara Happa/Peloria is itself a significant hegemonic power should be played out. What it should be is the contested prize of the great Pentan, Carmanian and Orlanthi empires which have dominated it throughout its entire history and seek to always secure it because it does possess great utility, but little to no power. Does Dara Happa rule all of Peloria at this time? I may well be remembering wrong but if I recall correctly per Glorantha Guide 1 parts of southern Peloria are already under Council administration. Furthermore, this doesn't account for the fact that Dara Happa is first dominate and conquered by Pentants, a loss for them, who the council defeats at Argentum. The Broken Council bit I must admit I just had no knowledge of and would like to find out where I can read about it because it has been brought up twice now. The Mythology: Cults book at least when describing the Broken Circle doesn't describe it as a Dara Happan empire but as a separate power Dara Happa supported, but if it is the case that the Broken Circle should be thought of as instead a Dara Happan empire that certainly does change things somewhat. No mention here is made of Arkat's crushing of Peloria, the surrender to the Orlanthi or the brief Orlanthi rule of Peloria which is a clear marginal Orlanthi win. Furthermore, I don't quite see why Dara Happa controlling much of Peloria and the Orlanthi ruling all of Dragon Pass overthrowing the Trolls is a marginal win for Dara Happa. Seems like a draw to me. On that note, also, when exactly does half of Peloria become so Orlanthi dominated that, per Guide for Glorantha, they are now considered populated primarily by Orlanthi peoples? I had assumed it must happen across a combination of the 1st and 2nd Ages, but if you say at this point Dara Happa rules most of Peloria (which I assume means more than their usual northern holdings) does it only happen during the EWF then? Are there any books on this topic you could maybe recommend for me? Only if it isn't too much trouble though, sorry for the imposition. I think, also, to be clear, I'm discussing Peloria's habitual subordination by all foreign powers, so I consider their conquest by Carmania an absolute defeat. Orlanthi are certainly the focus, as they dominate the lore, but I consider conquest by Carmania an outright defeat for Dara Happa. On that note, again, if post Dragonkill War most of Peloria (which I assume means much of southern Peloria too) then why come the Lunar Empire are we told in the Guide to Glorantha 1 that most of southern Peloria were independent states populated overwhelmingly by Orlanthi peoples who worshiped Orlanth as their primary deity until the Lunar Empire forbade it and they swapped over to Ernalda and Barntar? This part confuses me somewhat as previously Guide and Mythology: Cults had seemed to me to very clearly indicate that outside the Lunar Empire Dara Happa had never had any established hegemony over any Pelorian lands south of Saird. Admittedly we also already know that Orlanthi will go on to crush the Lunar Empire, rule the Provinces and well more and defeat Sheng too, so that is another clear victory for the Orlanthi, and may well be the final fight. Although it is certainly true that at any point in time who is dominant can change, I think it is rather clear from the narrative that we see that, outside the Lunar Empire, Peloria is clearly no hegemonic force comparable to the Orlanthi. It is also definitely telling that Peloria is far, far, far more often subjugated than the Orlanthi have ever been. Of course, finally, to me, the clear material indicators of hegemony: cultural spread, linguistic spread and religious spread are the most determinant for my conclusion. Dara Happa has a period of independence as a part of the Broken Council, ended by Arkat and Orlanthi successfully conquering them, then a period of independence ended next by the Orlanthi of EWF conquering them followed by being conquered by the Carmanians followed by their ascent into an empire finally destroyed once and for all by the Orlanthi under Argarth, with southern Peloria no longer even Pelorian or Sky Pantheon dominant. So, for me, the numbers do still feel very skewed against the Pelorians. Again, as Rodney said, I understand why this is and think it is totally reasonable and rational. But, it is definitely just not to my personal tastes, I think, is all. It sounds interesting and certainly I would prefer a situation where Peloria had also achieved cultural expansion in some areas, I still find it strange that despite 400 years of rulership southern Peloria is described culturally, ethnically and religiously as primarily Orlanthi and not Pelorian, but at the end of the day these are nice ideas which don't change the current situation for me sadly, though I certainly appreciate the energy and like the thought. I also agree it'd be nice, if Orlanth is meant to be this somewhat scary and destructive force, if more groups then actually kicked him out sometimes, because currently it just doesn't seem to be the case at all.

Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. Gave me lots to think about and also helped me to come to my conclusion. After this and checking out some further stuff in the books and on well of daliath I can definitely say though that Runequest is not the game for me, I will stick to Call of Cthulhu. I love the effort, respect it, and think many ideas are great, but Glorantha’s narrative history is just a litany of the Pelorians getting their butts kicked over and over and over by the Orlanthi who are just overwhelmingly textually presented as better in every way. Narratively the Orlanthi have a bigger metropolis than Peloria even though Peloria’s defining shtick is being the ‘city’ people. I’m not fond of dynamics such as this in any settings or stories and Orlanthi just clearly being this designated ‘awesome’ people and Pelorians these perennial losers kill most of my motivation to play the game. The Pelorians are such underdogs with a history of almost nothing but being conquered and their homelands slowly being colonized and settled and converted into Orlanthi dominated lands I just feel bad for them. So, yeah, I don’t like such one-sided arrangements or such clear singling out of only one group of people as exceptional, I am just not a fan of it. Furthermore, the knowledge that the entire threat of the Red Moon and the Lunar Empire are already destroyed and defeated just makes me uninterested to actually play anything. I don’t really care about adventures and such because the ending is already explicitly written: Argarth will beat the Lunar Empire and Sheng on multiple occasions, will destroy the Red Moon and the Empire(s) and conquer most of the Provinces and maybe even more. Just not interesting to me. Like playing 40k but where my codex tells me explicitly already my faction is already dead, absolutely no narrative interest or tension then for me personally. I’m gonna give a general response because I don’t think necessarily everyone will be interested in reading my detailed responses to each segment. So, general response: · I didn’t feel there was much substantive actually given concerning my core conceit here. A lot of the answers didn’t really address my query “Why is Peloria/Dara Happa discussed as a major hegemonic/imperial centre when in its history it has never been close to that except for, briefly, during the Lunar Empire.” Instead, a lot of the answers I think misinterpreted my query and dealt with metrics I wasn’t talking about. Nothing really disputed in any material way the simply existing facts that despite many of the books insisting Peloria was some hegemonic centre of power it has, save for the Lunar Empire, failed to ever be so and has lost every single war it has fought against Orlanthi hegemons, including being conquered by Orlanthi hegemons, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire’s century of ascendancy ending with Argath. My core concern still remains: why does Peloria lose every single significant engagement, fail to build any serious empires compared to the history of empire building on a far vaster scale we see from the Orlanthi, yet still get treated as some sort of hegemonic centre? Furthermore, when Orlanthi hegemons rise they, like all hegemons in reality do, bring about the conversion of conquered spaces to their cultural and religious sphere. We see this in the West, southern Peloria, Umathela etc. etc. but Pelorian culture has simply never successfully spread to and converted another region in a similar fashion, even the Lunar Empire’s 400 year reign of Peloria did not diminish the explicitly stated Orlanthi dominance of the ‘Provinces’ per the Guide to Glorantha. Even numbers support this, with Pelorians being definitively given as the smallest major culture of Genertela. Again, this explicitly does not accord with hegemonic power. When the Achamenids became hegemonic it saw the expansion of Iranian culture to most of the Near East, the Argeads and their Diadochi led to the cultural Hellenization of much of the eastern Mediterranean world, Pax Romana saw incredible numerous and diffuse groups adopt and identify as Roman, in both culture and religion and Sinicization under successive Dynasties achieved much the same. All evidence indicates that Peloria has never been, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire, anything like a hegemonic or imperial force of note. · I found the historical comparisons not convincing. The Roman Empire? Alexander the Great? The boundaries of these states extended WELL beyond the traditional homelands or powerbases of the respective city and individual. Again, to emphasize, the Lunar Empire is the first Pelorian Empire in history to just manage to secure all of their homeland even. To compare it to the Argead Empire (and its Diadochi) who successfully united their homeland of Macedon, dominated their northern neighbours, conquered almost all of the independent Greek Polis (already considered major powers at the time) and then proceeded to defeat and conquer the Achamenid Empire, the hyper power of their time, before also incorporating many northern Indian kingdoms just does not fit at all. The EWF, Arkat or Sheng are clearly the only comparable scopes there. The Lunar Empire would be similar if Alexander conquered Macedon, then maybe conquered Thrace for a century, then briefly held the Greek Polities for 30 years before his whole empire was destroyed. Similarly, the Roman Republic – Empire was able to unite their home territory very early in their history (comparatively of course, as all things in history are) and then spread out to vastly, vastly, more than that. To compare the Lunar Empire to that is simply not appropriate. The Lunar Empire secures Peloria, yes. They then, for about 30 years, secure all of Dragon Pass and Prax. That is, it. That is the extent of their Imperial rule. That is a far cry from what Orlanthi had already achieved centuries before and it is also the greatest extent of Pelorian conquest in history. I just do not think you can compare the Lunar Empire to the Roman Empire at all. · What I do find convincing is the point that Dara Happa isn’t actually that important. The mistake is in thinking of it as a hegemonic centre for Solar Pantheon worship and that, instead, this should be shifted to Pentans. I get this a little, Pentans certainly do rule Peloria early on, the first of Peloria’s many, many, MANY conquerors and the Celestial Empire is definitely far more comparable to what Orlanthi hegemons have achieved than anything Peloria ever manages, uniting virtually all of Genertela east of the Wastes and then also subduing Prax and much of Peloria. That, I can kind of buy, but then reinforces to me that it is a completely informed trait that the books keep stressing Peloria, and Dara Happa in particular, as some important hegemonic force in history. Put simply, since time actually began, Dara Happa’s history is (with the exception of the Lunar period) a history of hastily trying to respond to foreign aggression, losing influence and primacy over southern Peloria, and ultimately being repeatedly conquered by Pentans, Malkioni and Orlanthi. French Desperate WindChild: You’re right, I should have said ‘protagonists’ instead of ‘good guys’. I get what you mean and, to be clear, I don’t think the Air Pantheon or the Orlanthi are ‘morally good’, they are pretty horrific in their warmongering, and they are explicitly the most successful imperialists in the history of Glorantha, which is explicitly horrific and there is nothing good about it. They are, however, clearly written as the protagonists of the entire world, defeating all their enemies repeatedly, establishing by far the strongest hegemons and being the largest culture and religion across the world. So, as I already said I don’t find these historical comparisons convincing. What I will add on here though: yes, post the conquest of the Greek City-States by Rome they were never, ever, considered major hegemonic powers again. Even before that, post the King’s Peace the status of the Greek City-States as powerful polities was past. Sparta, Athena and Thebes were not considered dominant players as they had been before. When Alexander died and the resulting Diadochi wars gave space for independent Greek polities again none of them became major players except for the newer Epirus and the Hellenic Eastern regimes, none of them the classical Greek City-States of old. That is the thing about hegemonic primacy. If conquered and definitively crushed and defeated it is rarely retained. Not never. But rarely. Following the King’s Peace, the Greek City-States never were a hegemonic force again, and not treated as such by their geopolitical peers either. Similarly post Dara Happa’s third conquest by foreign forces, and post Peloria’s loss of primacy and influence across their entire southern half, the idea of anyone considering them a serious hegemonic centre is laughable. Particularly after Argarth destroys the entire Lunar Empire as well. I get what you mean here and, fair enough, not all people want to just accumulate further power to themselves. However, states do. History shows time and time again that states will rapidly adopt and change to whatever weapons and tools seem to be most effective at securing their expansion of power. In that case, considering the Pelorian rulers have seen on three separate occasions that in any largescale conflict against the Air Pantheon the Sky Pantheon always loses the fact that the government and state officials, not the people, have not converted to worship of the Air Pantheon makes no sense. If I am a ruler of Dara Happa my first interest is maintaining and expanding my own power. I can see in my own recent history that every time a Pelorian and Orlanthi hegemon have clashed, from Arkat through the EWF to Argarth, the Orlanthi hegemon has ALWAYS ultimately triumphed. Thus, I know what the more effective tool is for securing my power and dominance better. It is just rational. That is, at least, my view of it. Thank you for the insights though, I appreciate it! Scott-martin: I’m not exactly sure what you mean, so I apologize in advance if maybe I'm misrepresenting anything with my response. Hybridization between Malkioni and Orlanthi is definitely the defining feature of Western Genertela, for sure, but that is sort of what I am saying. Orlanthi culture has gone on to dominate much of Western Genertela, with some regions in the Guide to Glorantha Volume 1 just explicitly being described as Orlanthi now. Again, we have this pattern that Orlanthi seems to be the only culture which has the ability to change the dominant culture of a region, with many prior Malkioni and Pelorian regions now in the Guide to Glorantha Vol 1 being described as culturally dominated by Orlanthi peoples. I’ll admit I don’t know much about Orlanthi-types in Kralorela so I’ll defer to you on that. I think we are talking past each other here perhaps: I’m defining success here by the metric of the books repeatedly stressing Dara Happa as a hegemonic centre of Imperial Power. It is, very clearly, not that considering its Pentan neighbours (and far more its Orlanthi ones) are explicitly clearly far greater hegemonic forces which regularly conquer all of Peloria whilst Dara Happa has barely ever managed to even conquer all of Peloria. Furthermore, it is clearly not a major hegemonic power since a hallmark of such status is cultural expansion and Peloria, rather than a spreading culture, explicitly has seen almost half of it lose its Pelorian culture with, again, the Guide to Glorantha describing the Provinces as mostly Orlanthi now, not Pelorian. In this regard, unsurprisingly considering the well of daliath and the Guide to Glorantha both describe Pelorian/Lunar as the smallest major cultures of Genertela, the Pelorians have been in a precipitous decline since the 1st age, Orlanthi culture and Air-Pantheon Worship steadily rising from the south to convert first all of Southern Peloria and now by the time of Argarth reaching even Saird. Meanwhile, by contrast, Peloria has never successfully altered the cultural make-up of any territory to be Pelorian or Sky-Pantheon Worship. So, the fact that there might be periods where Dara Happa simply insularly operates fine when one of its many conquerors is not currently in power isn’t meeting the criterion for success here that I am discussing. I’m not saying there aren’t periods where small little Dara Happa putters on unnoticed by the great Orlanthi and Malkioni Empires of the world, I’m saying that Dara Happa clearly has no pre-Lunar history as a hegemonic or imperial core. Furthermore, I’ll be honest, I don’t even know how true it is that there are long stretches of time where northern Peloria just operates as a sovereign state. At the start of the Dawn, they are conquered by Pentans. Then they are briefly conquered by the Council before forming an independent Empire only as a desperate reaction to conquest. This empire then knows only war until the point where it is willing to become a part of Dorastor’s Broken Council, the inheriting polity of the Orlanthi-shaped council. Dara Happa then enjoys a time of some respite as part of this hybrid regime before being decisively defeated and conquered by Orlanthi, ending with the emperor’s surrender at Yelm’s Footstool to an explicitly Theyalan host. Peloria is then explicitly ruled over by Orlanthi. Eventually the Dara Happans throw off the Orlanthi rulers and what follows is seemingly the longest period of peace Dara Happa knows, but even this is not a time of great power as Dara Happa still remains just a small empire limited to northern Peloria, whilst by now most of its southern homeland is largely converting to Orlanthi and Pelorian culture is shrinking. Then comes the EWF and Peloria is, for the second time, completely conquered by Orlanthi and Carmanians (Theyalan people with an Air Deity as their most popular deity). Ultimately Dara Happa gets independent of the EWF only to immediately be conquered by Carmania. Then we get the Lunar Empire and, there, I fully agree that the Lunar Empire is the one period of some degree of Pelorian dominance. For the first time in Pelorian history they are even able to secure their homeland, though we know ultimately the Lunar Empire is also doomed to collapse and Argarth will conquer, at the least, all the Lunar Provinces if not also the rest of Peloria (putting Peloria under Orlanthi rule for a third time if he does so). So, I don’t quite see their history as having long stretches of relative autonomy. At most they have post the Arkat Wars and during the Lunar Empire two periods of relative autonomous stability, but in only one of those periods do they establish themselves as anything resembling a hegemonic power and, even then, a very small power compared to what has come before. I’m afraid I don’t exactly see the relevance of this. At least from what I’ve read Peloria/Dara Happa’s collapse are almost always just the result of external conquest: Pentans, Orlanthi or Carmanian. I don’t quite see where the internal aspect comes into this. Considering we’ve seen how southern Peloria was converted to Orlanthi culture it is quite clear that when ruled over by Orlanthi Pelorian culture does just assimilate and abandon the Sky-Pantheon for the Air-Pantheon instead. A rational decision to make when you cannot defeat your conquerors and one defeated people have made throughout history. To give just my two cents: it is pretty clear Pelorian Culture and Sky-worship (as it is in Peloria) is doomed to extinction at the hands of Orlanthi and Air-Pantheon encroachment. We’ve already seen between the 1st and 2nd Ages Orlanthi culture and Air-Pantheon come to dominate southern Peloria and with Orlanthi conquests set to now undo the Lunar Empire as well, the only Pelorian polity to ever seem to be able to offer some resistance, it is probably just a matter of time before northern Peloria follows suit and, like Fronela and Ralios, Peloria just becomes another syncretised Orlanthi Air-dominated region. This is, at least, my perspective on this, particularly after reading the current crop of books and their consistent insistence on the very large scope of Orlanthi cultural and religious spread and frequent conquest of Peloria by Orlanthi regimes. Jeff: Yeah, that’s why I mentioned both Dara Happa and Peloria. More broadly speaking I am discussing the Pelorians, the indigenous people of the Pelorian basin, but as Dara Happa is the only significant indigenous polity to every emerge from Peloria it was just where my focus was (before the Lunar Empire of course). Indeed, they very much resemble to me the historical mercantile polities of the Bay of Bengal. Very wealthy, but with little power and so almost always falling under the rulership of some or other stronger state which could militarily conquer them but found advantage in allowing them to carry on much as they had. As a polity Dara Happa must have one of the longest track records for being conquered by foreign powers in all of Glorantha: first by Pentans, then Dorastor, then Orlanthi, then Orlanthi again, then Carmanians, then Pentans and now probably Orlanthi again after the Hero Wars. I’m going to be honest I don’t see how it could ever have pretensions to universal rule. The Golden Empire I’m not really interested in, that was a literal divine hegemony, and it was ended by Orlanth anyway so it was again defeated by Air Gods, but I’m only interested in the states once time actually exists. Even at the height of its power (pre-Lunar) Dara Happa never controlled more than just northern Peloria. There are no other nations considered ‘Pelorian’ outside of the Dara Happan Empire either. Meanwhile polities explicitly described in Guide to Glorantha Vol 1 as Orlanthi and Orlanthi-dominated rule much of Fronela, Ralios, all of Dragon Pass, some of Prax and much of Kethaela. If we look at the Lunar Empire, undoubtedly the strongest native Pelorian hegemon in history, it still had a maximum extent of just securing Peloria, Dragon Pass and some of Prax and the Holy Country. It also lost almost all its lands outside Peloria in an about 30-year span and then proceeded to in one lifetime lose all the Provinces and collapse 3 times in quick succession. I don’t really feel like that can be compared to something like the EWF at all. Even Arkat established longer Orlanthi rule over Peloria and that was still not actually such a long period. I will admit it I find it kind of ironic that the Dragonkill War, a war mostly about Pelorians getting killed, also as a side-effect wiped out the Orlanthi civilizations of Dragon Pass even though they actually tried to help the dragons! I’ll admit for me this sort of technical assessment does not help. One can describe the specifications of a weapon but if that weapon in multiple conflicts fails to defeat your enemies, then the specifications of the weapon are irrelevant, your enemies clearly have stronger weapons. Yelm’s worshiping forces have time and again demonstrated that in war they will ALWAYS lose to Orlanth. Dara Happa was conquered by Orlanthi under Arkat, the Pentans before them were defeated by the Unity Council which worshiped the Lightbringers, Dara Happa was again defeated by the Orlanthi under the EWF and by the Carmanians who have connections to the Air Gods and, finally, both the Lunar Empire and Sheng Seleris were defeated and destroyed by Argarth. In every war we see always that ultimately it is always Air Gods that defeat Sky Gods. If your weapon never manages to defeat your opponent, it is not a worthwhile weapon. Intelligent polities adapt to more effective weapons as the number one driving priority of states is the securing and expansion of their own power. Also, that last part seems to clash with the Lightbringer myth which is far more widely spread which definitely doesn’t say that Orlanth went against his will to see Yelm and instead puts emphasis mostly on Orlanth willingly and voluntarily doing this action and securing recognition from Yelm for it. The way I see it from the books Yelm is, pretty clearly, a loser. I find this very interesting though, thank you for bringing it to my attention! I hadn’t thought of it before but Pent is the more powerful between them and Peloria, so this is something I’ll read up on. I’ll admit though I just read the Cults: Mythology book today and it says the Second Council decisively crushed the Pentans and that only after that were they fought to a standstill by the Dara Happan Empire. I assume this Third Age Empire is the Sheng one? A pity, again, it ended the moment it clashed with any Orlanthi force. Can Air Pantheon Empires never actually be defeated by Sky Pantheon Empires? Blegh, not a fan of that personally. Whole history just seems like a litany of Air-worshiping peoples always beating Sky-worshiping peoples, I find that uninteresting personally. Richard S: I don’t quite feel I agree with this. When going through the Guide to Glorantha Books they frequently make mention of many nations as having ‘Orlanthi’ culture and ‘Orlanth’ religion. Meanwhile there is just VERY little mention of nations with ‘Pelorian’ culture or ‘Yelm’ religion. Considering just the big discrepancy in population numbers given, and with so many more cultures worshiping Orlanth than Yelm, I just don’t think it is possible for Yelm’s cult to have anywhere near the influence of Orlanth’s. I mean Orlanth’s Cult is THE dominant cult throughout all of Dragon Pass, much of the Holy Country, much of Fronela, Ralios and the Jrusteli. By contrast Yelm’s cult is described as dominant only in northern Peloria and, even then, it is now eclipsed by the Red Goddess. To be blunt, per the numbers given at the back of the Cults: Mythology book about number of cult members throughout the Lunar Empire, Maniria, Holy Country, Prax and Dragon Pass Yelm is actually a pretty small deity with rather low numbers. Metcalph: Considering the Theyalans simply return under Arkat and conquer all of Peloria I don’t really see the battle of Night and Day as impressive, personally, just the middle part of a war which, once again, Peloria loses. It is one battle in a longer conflict which ends with the Orlanthi-side winning, Orlanthi ruling Peloria and the story even kind of implies an inherent evil in Dara Happa by making it that the moment Dara Happa joins the ritual the Orlanthi leave, warning everyone it is a mistake to involve Dara Happa, and they wind up being right as Nysalor is made. Not really fond of the way the Pelorians seem to be inherently evil. Furthermore, the fact that the Orlanthi hired Trolls and Malkioni to win doesn’t matter to me. Winning is winning. If Peloria always loses because it is too stupid to use strategies to win that is their fault, not the Orlanthi’s for just being smarter. Reminds me of the well of daliath post which points out that the Lunar Army was actually just very, very dumb and the only reason they seemed to do well was because they had magic but the moment, they ever went up against anyone who could negate that they were such incompetent commanders and warriors they got destroyed. The expulsion was in part heavily due to internal problems within the EWF and also backed by Carmania. I agree totally it’s a case of Pelorians actually eking out a win, nice, a pity they are immediately conquered by Carmania but, sure, the eventual collapse of the EWF is true. Yeah, for the Lunar ones, definitely. As I’ve said the Lunar Empire is clearly the one period where Pelorians were actually a hegemonic force, at least within their homeland. A pity we already know they just get wiped out by Argarth. Yet again Orlanthi forces always triumph against Pelorian. I’m afraid I don’t know what to say. This is the sequence of events from the Cults: Mythology book. It explicitly says Dara Happa and the Second Council fought and that then the Third Council made peace and invited Dara Happa to join them. No mention is made of an invasion by Dara Happa or of Dara Happa as the dominant force. Where’s this other version come from, if I may ask, I’d love to read it. I’m using the definition from the Guide to Glorantha. It calls numerous nations in Ralios, Fronela, the Holy Country and all of the Lunar Provinces as being dominated and populated by Orlanthi cultures. The Sun Domes exist, certainly, as there are ethnic minorities everywhere, but none of the regions with the Sun Domes are described as being dominated by a Pelorian Culture or a Sky Pantheon save for those already in northern Peloria. Southern Peloria: Imther, Aggar, Talastar etc. etc are all in the guide explicitly said to be culturally Orlanthi and per Mythology: Cults in all these places Orlanth either holds the same number of worshipers as Yelm or more. I do not think that it is at all a bizarre statement to make that Orlanthi culture has clearly been far, far, FAR more successful at propagating itself and its beliefs across Glorantha. The presence of Sun Domes in an area doesn’t mean Pelorian Culture is dominant there. Meanwhile the books explicitly say several parts of the West, of Pamaltela, the Holy Country and southern Peloria are dominated by Orlanthi and Air Worship. Perhaps I am missing something, so feel free to let me know if there is a book I could look at to for this, but outside of northern Peloria the Guides to Glorantha do not describe any other states or regions as dominated by Pelorian culture or worship of Yelm, whilst numerous, numerous states and regions, including all of southern Peloria, are explicitly stated to now be largely dominated by Orlanthi peoples and worship of Orlanthi-pantheons. For example, to go just by those Praxian numbers you’ve got: · Bison are 5% Orlanthi · High Llama are 5% Orlanthi · Impala are 13% · Morokanth are more Seven Sisters for sure · Pol-Joni are 25 · Rhino are 7 · Unicorn I’ll concede · Zebra I guess are irrelevant · Sable are of course very Lunar, agreed I think they key confusion here is you seem to be thinking I’m saying that there are no Pelorian cultural minorities in other places. There are, typically in Orlanthi dominated southern Peloria. But that is the point. Peloria has not spread to become a dominant culture in any other region (a hallmark of actual hegemony) whilst, by comparison, Orlanthi has not only spread to become the dominant culture of numerous regions but has even dominated southern Peloria and made almost half of the Pelorian homeland now be a region in which Pelorians themselves, and Sky Pantheon worship, are a minority within their ancestral homelands, now largely ruled and populated by Orlanthi peoples and Air Pantheons. That is the point I am making. Not that there aren’t cultural minorities, of course there are small pockets of Pelorians still in southern Peloria, but Orlanthi now dominate there, whilst there is no region which was once Orlanthi where the Orlanthi are now a cultural minority dominated by a new Pelorian cultural majority. Also, as for the Rome part, again I see no viable comparison. The Roman Empire DID result in vast swathes of the world culturally, religiously and linguistically identifying as and claiming to be Roman. Meanwhile Peloria has never achieved this anywhere (save perhaps Carmania). By contrast Guide to Glorantha 1 explicitly tells us that Orlanthi hegemony transformed much of Western Genertela and Southern Peloria into Orlanthi dominated regions culturally, linguistically and religiously. Guide to Glorantha 1 when discussing the Lunar Provinces (so southern Peloria) explicitly says Orlanth was the prime deity prior to the Lunar Empire's domination and even after their domination it is Ernalda and Barntar who are now described as most populous. There is simply no comparison to Rome's cultural conversion of massive regions of Europe, the Near East and North Africa into culturally and linguistically 'Roman' regions and Peloria's lack of achieving any conversion of any conquered regions into 'Pelorian' regions. Most damning despite ruling the Provinces for 400 years Guide to Glorantha 1 still states that southern Peloria is populated by Orlanthi peoples who follow Orlanthi culture and largely follow Air or Earth Pantheons. This can be compared clearly to how when Orlanthi hegemony emerged it successfully converted much of western Genertela and southern Peloria into regions which are now described per the Guide to Glorantha 1 as being populated by Orlanthi peoples predominantly with Orlanthi cultures and Pantheons. I hope I made my point clear, again, if I misunderstood anything let me know! Darius West: Agreed. As a pantheon, and the resulting polities, Sky seems to be absolutely idiotic and bereft even of the rational self-interest the most basic of polities have. They will gladly lose war after war after war to Orlanthi hegemons and change nothing, necessitating their eventual destruction. Agreed, Pelorians are subjugated near constantly, primarily by Pentans and Orlanthi, so I am surprised more have not adopted the Orlanthi ways in northern Peloria/Dara Happa. Technical specifications mean nothing if they do not actually deliver results in warfare. The Phalanx Formation, these Rune Spells, are clearly not effective as despite possessing them Peloria’s history is one of near constant defeat and loss. I get what you mean but, for me, this is personally irrelevant. If your enemies defeat, you because they are smarter that changes nothing. Winning is winning, this just shows again why the Sky Pantheon, and Pelorians, suck so much. They are just really, really, dumb. I remember there is even a well of daliath post about how the Lunar Empire is actually very stupid strategically and tactically and just relies on magic as a crutch. Unless Fazzur Wideread is involved because, again, obviously, as an Orlanthi he is just inherently superior to all the Lunar Pelorian commanders in history. Joerg: I am probably missing something, but I don’t see how any of this challenges or disputes what I am saying. If anything, as I’ve dug deeper now, and supported by this, how much Yelm, the Sky Pantheon and Peloria sucks just seems to deepen. Not only are they a shrinking culture who are near constantly conquered by either Orlanthi or Pentans but, in addition, they are monstrously sexist to an almost insane extent and seem to be inherently immoral since their mere involvement in the Council’s project immediately tipped the Orlanthi off to the fact that the project would now be evil. Yelm, the Sky Pantheon, Peloria, everything about them seems to exist just to be an awful place of losers who are bad and suck so that the Orlanthi can beat their asses over and over kid. Like nerdy loser kids being constantly picked on by everyone in the neighbourhood, from Malkioni Carmanians, Pentans and Orlanthi, for their lunch money. Yeah, and every age ends with the ‘Solars’ decisively defeated and conquered. As you point out, also, the Solars only ever achieve success by joining, usually, with other non-Solars who already are conquering them. In addition, the Solar hegemons are always incredibly small, the Dara Happan Empire which emerged from the Broken Council ruled only northern Peloria with Dorastor as the seat of the greater government, the Dara Happa which worked with the Carmanians controlled, in conjunction with them, only most of Peloria before their destruction in Dragon Pass. By comparison the Dawn Age conquests by Arkat saw Orlanthi and Trolls and Lightbringer forces ruling everything from Western Genertela to Peloria and the EWF even more than that. There is a clear, CLEAR discrepancy in the imperial extent and hegemonic influence exerted by the two cultural centres. Again, one can just look at the Guide to Glorantha and Well of Daliath posts on culture numbers and religion which both agree that Pelorians/Sky Pantheon are the smallest in Genertela and exceeded by Orlanthi/Air Pantheon by a significant margin. This alone is a clear indication of the vastly superior hegemonic and imperial status of Orlanthi/Air Pantheon over anything Pelorian/Sky Pantheon and I feel should surprise no-one considering how successful Orlanthi conquerors are and how unsuccessful Peloria is at just about anything other than living in their small corner of the world. The Pelorian hegemons, until the Lunar Empire, barely exert any influence outside of Peloria. Orlanthi hegemons typically exert, at a minimum, influence over all of Genertela west of the Wastes, including, often all of Peloria itself. In addition, what influence is exerted by Pelorian hegemons never, for some reason, establishes culture conversion. Whilst the Guide to Glorantha identifies virtually all of the Lunar Provinces, much of Ralios and Fronela as now being Orlanthi populated due to Orlanthi hegemonic spread, there is not a single region in the entire Guide identified as having become Pelorian populated due to any Pelorian hegemonic spread. Indeed, bafflingly to me, even though the Lunar Empire has ruled the Provinces for 400 years now, they are still in the Guide identified as primarily being of the Orlanthi culture and not Pelorian. Indicating, if anything, that the Empire has a pathetically weak hegemonic core. Most empires, by dint of necessity to maintain power, have to exercise a degree of cultural conversion. This happens in virtually every empire in history which exists for more than a single conqueror’s generation. The Lunar Empire, though, seems to not even be able to achieve this. Which does explain why all the Provinces very rapidly simply submit to Argarth, being an Orlanthi hegemon, their natural superiors. Looking at it even just from a narrative perspective the cycle you mention is exactly what I am talking about. It is boring to me. The history we are presented is just an endless set of wars where Orlanthi ALWAYS win in the end and conquer Peloria. It just makes me feel bad for how pathetic Peloria is. It also, again, emphasizes my other problem: Orlanthi are inherently treated as better and more exceptional. As you say yourself the pinnacle of civilization who only ever even risk defeat to the Solars because members of their own civilization betray them and, ultimately, it is always the Orlanthi that triumph. Now, I totally get this isn't a problem for anyone. That's fine. For me, personally though, it is something I deeply just dislike. Sure, and I speak under correction here because there may be context I do not understand, but what you describe there just make this sound like another failed attempt by Pelorians to have any serious influence or power. Therein lies a big problem then for me. So, they always just lose in the end. They just do sorta okay before being ultimately always crushed and conquered. But then being defeated by Arkat and Orlanthi ruling over Peloria for a generation before the EWF proceeds to rule for even longer. Now, again, here I do want to add that maybe I am missing context, but at least after reading the Guides and the Cults books, nowhere has it yet implied that when Dragon Pass was conquered by the Broken Circle was this an exclusively Pelorian thing, it presented it as a Dorastor-Broken Circle thing, which Dara Happa was just now a willing member of. Yeah, for sure, northern Peloria did manage to regain independence, briefly, before the EWF Orlanthi conquered them. Again here, at best, Peloria/Dara Happa scrapes out ‘we manage to not die’ whilst Orlanthi multiple times in a row conquer the entire Pelorian region and have culturally converted virtually all of southern Peloria to the point where the Guides describe southern Peloria as being predominantly populated by Orlanthi peoples, not Pelorian, and the Cults: Mythology books definitively have Orlanth and Air worship exceed Sky worship there. There is a very telling difference in scope of impact. Dara Happa scrapes by, in the north, never managing to affect any significant presence or conquest of Orlanthi hegemons, whilst Orlanthi hegemons not only regularly conquer all of Peloria but are even steadily culturally converting Peloria into just another Orlanthi-dominated region. Agreed, the eventual defeat of the EWF was caused by Pelorians, Malkioni, Orlanthi and, more importantly, Dragonewts. It was in no way some primarily Pelorian success. In addition, we again see this very different treatment. When the EWF conquered Peloria they dominate it for centuries of Orlanthi rule over Peloria. When Arkat comes to Peloria he decisively wins, subjugates the entire region successfully, then lives in peace a victor. When Peloria just takes part in a joint victory over an Orlanthi hegemon they have their entire military age male populace extinguished. There is never a moment of lasting triumph for Peloria, even when they are part of an eventually joint success over some or other Orlanthi hegemon. We see this repeated in Dragonrise where the Lunar Empire seems to finally actually achieve the first ever case in history of Pelorian dominance over Orlanthi, only to immediately have it all collapse and a new Orlanthi hegemon not only reverse all their conquests but also proceed to conquer all of southern Peloria and even destroy the Red Moon. Yes, agreed, the Lunar Empire is the sole actual period of Pelorian hegemonic influence of any sort. A pity we already know it is destroyed, yet again by an Orlanthi hegemon, and we also know that even after 400 years of rule it affects no significant cultural conversion in any of its conquered territories, the hallmark of hegemonic pull. Yes, except, again, there is a MASSIVE discrepancy in power and scope. The EWF conquer all of Peloria and much of the entire world. The Lunar Empire, at its greatest, had solid rule of Peloria, some rule over Dragon Pass and Prax, minimal conquest of Holy Country, and this greatest extent lasted at most 30 years before, rapidly, the Lunar Empire shrunk to just the Heartland before that collapsed too against an Orlanthi hegemon (this time both Pelorian AND Pentan empires were defeated by the same Orlanthi hegemon!) There is simply no comparison between the imperial status of the EWF and a minnow like the Lunar Empire. Yes, a historical cycle which is defined by constant Pelorian loss against Orlanthi hegemony. I also don’t personally see how the Yelmalio Cult can be seen as dominant. Per Guide 1 everywhere south of Dara Happa proper is Orlanthi and the guide even notes that prior to the Lunar conquest of these regions Orlanth had been that main deity and that, now, it is Ernalda and Barntar. Yelmalio is only mentioned as being important in Saird, nowhere else. If we also look at southern Peloria Cult numbers in the Mythology: Cults book we see that in Aggar, Imther, Talastar, Brolia, Anadiki and Vanch Orlanth worship is always considerably larger than Yelmalio worship. Indeed, in Aggar, Talasatar, Anadiki and Brolia there is not much Yelmalio worship at all. Throughout all of southern Peloria only in Hoolay is Yelmalio at least EQUAL to the degree of Orlanth worship. This is after 400 years of Lunar efforts to suppress Orlanth worship as well. So, I do not really see how Yelmalio can be argued to have been the dominant faith or figure here. It is very clearly stated in Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults that southern Peloria is culturally and religious Orlanthi in nature, not Pelorian, with just some significant Pelorian minority presences. It is very clear that throughout much of the ‘West’ Orlanth worship, in some form or another, is much more present than Yelm worship. In Guide 1, when discussing Fronela, no mention is made under religion of any significant Sky presence. Instead, it is noted that Orlanth worship is, in some form or another, prevalent and influential in: Northern Fronela, Jonatela, Janube States and Junora. It is very, very clear that whatever Sky influence there maybe it is vastly overshadowed by Air/Orlanthi influence in the West. Teshnos I think is interesting, I want to read more on them. Or, if I planned to continue with Runequest I would have. I agree that, depending on how wants to think of it, maybe Teshnos is similar to Peloria, but then it is not due to actual overt cultural conversion, as per Orlanthi, but simply coincidence. This is quite clearly seen in how much of Western Genertela not only has syncretized with the Orlanthi faith, but also become dominated by Orlanthi populations, whilst nothing of Teshnos is described as dominated or even inhabited by Pelorian populations. Yeah, Sheng is interesting. Again, a pity we already know he just winds up being defeated by the Orlanthi. I think you are misunderstanding a bit what I am discussing here. Again, in this case, sure, Teshnos, Vormain and Kralorela have Sky Pantheons, but none are the result of Pelorian hegemonic influence, as seen in how there is no Pelorian culture in any of these regions. Contrast that with Orlanthi spread which has also seen Orlanthi cultures now dominate much of the world, becoming per the Guide 1 the largest population in the world, as they spread. Which was promptly crushed by Arkat, Malkioini, Trolls and Orlanthi. Then Theyalans ruled Peloria for a generation. Dara Happa alone regained independence and was shortly afterwards conquered by Malkioini in the Carmanians and Orlanthi in the EWF. Again, just a history of scraping by from being conquered by one group of foreign rulers to another. Still Orlanthi and followers of the Air Pantheon. That the EWF had to beat some other Orlanthi doesn’t change anything, Dara Happa also infights regularly. It is an Orlanthi hegemon which dominated, yet again, Peloria. It was not a Sky Pantheon nor a Pelorian hegemony. The Sun Dragon doesn’t need to be a Dragon Pass Orlanthi. It is stated explicitly in the Guide 1 that the inhabitants of southern Peloria are Orlanthi Air-worshippers. I don’t exclude them from this. They are still, definitively, called Orlanthi in the books. Which, again, is tiny. Orlanthi influence spreads throughout all of Genertela and to Pamaltela. Additionally, I don’t understand why southern Peloria and Sun Dome Temples keep getting brought up. Again, per Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults the ‘Solar Hill Barbarians’ are described as being Orlanthi culturally and Orlanth as having been their primary deity until the Lunar Conquests after which Ernalda and Barntar are described as their main deities. Again, per Mythology: Cults, Hoolay is the only region in southern Peloria where Yelmalio worship even equals Orlanth. Yelmalio worship certainly exists as an important minority within southern Peloria, but it is also explicitly state that religiously and culturally the population of southern Peloria is first and foremost Orlanthi, even after 400 years of Lunar rule. I do not agree with this personally, there are constant rebellions in Dara Happa against Dara Happan hegemons. Hegemon is determined by ruling class, which was Orlanthi, not by ‘did every single member of this culture like the hegemon,’. If we use this metric of ‘has this hegemon ever had a rebellion of its own culture,’ no state would ever qualify. All wise conquerors adapt local administration to suit their needs. Again, for me, this isn’t really relevant. The damning evidence is in the way Orlanthi culture alone has successfully converted regions, including much of Peloria, to the point that books explicitly call these regions now as being populated by Orlanthi, whilst Peloria has never managed to spread at all. Yes, agreed, this is what I’m saying. Whilst Pelorian hegemons have never managed to expand their culture into any part of Orlanthi homelands the Orlanthi have successfully converted much of southern Peloria to be Orlanthi culture instead. Two things I would say here are: 1. If we look at only the 3rd age, I agree the Pentans are the only contenders. Here, again, though we see a trend I dislike. Sheng conquers and defeats virtually only Sky Pantheon cultures. Then, the first time he has a war against an Air Pantheon/Orlanthi nation, he loses immediately, and his entire empire is destroyed. 2. Me, personally, I am looking at things not just in the 3rd age, and the conquests of Arkat and the EWF VASTLY outstrip Sheng Seleris. Furthermore, what I dislike, is that even the greatest Sky conqueror, Sheng, can only really beat other Sky cultures, losing the first time he faces an Orlanthi hegemon, whilst Arkat and the EWF decisively defeat Sky Pantheon cultures. This once more, for me reinforces what I mean by the fact that the Sky Pantheon is clearly pathetically weak, only able to even really contend when fighting itself and always doomed to defeat against the Air Pantheon/Orlanthi. The EWF, per Mythology: Cults at least, are simply stated outright to during the 2nd Age have had the greatest power in all of Glorantha’s history, so that at least seems to confirm they were greater than the God Leaners. Not that this matters much to me since during the Imperial Age all of Peloria was just subjugated and they never even had a significant empire of their own. I’m going to concede on the Carmanians. There is a well of daliath post which calls Carmanians Lunars which clearly implies they have culturally converted to Pelorians. I will accept that Carmanians are the one example in history of Pelorian cultural expansion. Still a VERY clear gulf between them and Orlanthi but, at least, it is something. This just makes the Lunar Empire, and Sheng’s, defeats even more embarrassing but, by now, par for the course whenever Pelorian losers think they can stand up to their rightful Orlanthi betters and conquerors. Per well of daliath at least it is stated that by the late Dragon Pass Kingdom Sartar ruled, along with the Provinces, much of the Holy Country as well. That clearly indicates that, even if not Esrolia itself, much of the Holy Country comes under Argarth’s rule. No, but it is clear indication that Hispanic is widely distributed because two massive imperial hegemons, Portugal and Spain, exerted great domination over the world. Similarly, for example, there is a low degree of Amharic language and cultural spread and we do not, in macro-history, consider the Abyssinian, Aksumite or Ethiopian polities of the Horn to have ever been particularly significant hegemons. So, too, Peloria is clearly not a significant hegemonic presence vis-a-vis the Orlanthi hegemonic dominance. Language, culture and religion spread follow hegemonic dominance, are markers of imperial power. That they have spread does not mean all legacies are currently united, but those legacies exist for a reason. In this case that reason is that Orlanthi is the single greatest imperializing hegemonic force in Glorantha. Orlanthi don’t have to be united to have hegemonic dominance. That their culture and religion is the most widespread, by far, is already material evidence of their hegemonic dominance. Similarly, Argarth doesn't seem to struggle much with infighting among his Orlanthi supporters. Considering he simply defeats the entire Lunar Empire, the entire Empire of Sheng and proceeds to conquer all of Dragon Pass, the Provinces, much of Prax and the Holy Country, Orlanthi infighting is clearly not a very significant threat. Lunar Empire infighting, and thus Sky Pantheon infighting, is clearly a far greater danger as at multiple points it is stressed that the Lunar Empire is wracked constantly with internal battle and uprisings which help undermine it and weaken it. Argarth suffers from little of the same and simply unites his realm and utterly dominates his foes. I don’t, personally, see evidence for that. Again, the Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults describe southern Peloria as being Orlanthi culturally and primarily worshiping Orlanth (or now Ernalda and Barntar). If there was anything like a reciprocal cultural situation here, we would not see only Orlanthi culture dominate southern Peloria, we would see the Guide 1 also describe parts of Dragon Pass then as now populated by predominantly Pelorian culture. But, this is not said anywhere. Bureaucracy is useless to a state if it cannot maintain autonomy. This is why successive states with powerful established bureaucracies, from the Iranian Plateau, Turkic conquest regimes and Chinese Dynasties, when conquered by forces, adopted the ways of these forces to suit their needs and did not simply mindlessly maintain devotion to one previous system. None of that disputes my point though. Carmanians being Malkioni is also what I mean, it is still, yet again, foreign conquest of Pelorians. Personally, I think then they are stupid which, yeah, checks out thus far for the Pelorians. Because he wins all wars and battles, defeats all gods and his powers allow his subjects to become the largest cultural, religious and hegemonic force on the planet. Which, when you are a state, your only priority care is the maintenance and expansion of your own power. But those bullies conquer you, regularly, and you spend most of your history dominated by them. That is a clear incentive to convert, and we see this in how most of western Genertela and southern Peloria simply submitted and converted to the Orlanthi way. History is awful. Conquerors win. The force which has the power to enforce it upon others triumphs. If all Yelm can offer is 'hide in a corner and hope your conquerors ignore you because you stand no chance in ever resisting them' then that way is doomed to destruction. No empire lasts forever. All Empires fall to infighting. On the other hand, the Pelorians have a 1600 year experience that when Pelorians and Sky Pantheon try to make empires they get their asses kicked, when Orlanthi do it they establish, at least, centuries long empires which, even if they don’t persist, permanently convert many regions to Orlanthi culture and religion. Again: the Lunar Empire suffers far more clearly from infighting than Argarth ever seems too and Agarth is clearly able to control his infighting whilst the Lunar Empire fails too. This is genuinely actually very interesting, thank you for sharing it, I honestly like this kind of stuff, it was what I mean when I said I think Runequest’s dedication to detailed world building is fun. Thank you for sharing it with me. But none of this is relevant to the problem I am discussing. The fact remains that narratively what we are presented with is just Peloria as a region of perennial losers constantly shrinking before Orlanthi cultural and religious spread and being conquered and defeated by them in all wars and never managing to achieve any actual hegemonic influence. Further exarcebated by the fact that I already know that the Lunar Empire just fails and is destroyed, yet again, by a stronger Orlanthi hegemon. An Orlanthi hegemon which also goes on to win and destroy Sheng Seleris’s Pentan empire as well. At the end the problem for me is simple. I dislike the narrative focus on making the Orlanthi exceptional and needing them to win all conflicts. Even in the treatment of characters I dislike this. Whilst Orlanthi heroes like Argarth and Arkat just win, wipe out their Sky Pantheon equivalent, and then live in peace or dominance, the Sky Equivalents just suck. Nysalor just dies. Jar-Eel dies and messes up so many times that I think she's probably the most laughable character in the entire Hero Wars. She's meant to be the big heroine of the Lunar Empire? The lady who constantly gets her ass handed to her in like five different battles and is literally now in that annoying old trop of the villain girl is actually in love with the good guys? If there is one thing, I'd love to see it is just Jar-Eel vanish, a supremely insufferable character who just exists as a personification of Peloria's eternal patheticness vis-a-vis Orlanthi. I think it is just as Rodney says. This is the result of the fact that only Orlanthi matter as they are the player characters, and it is reasonable with limited resources to focus on this. Reasonable, for sure, but then also just definitely not to my personal tastes. I think, in the end, that is just how it is. Peloria is, consciously, within the narrative just the comedic loser villain for the Orlanthi to beat. This requires the Orlanthi, however, to ALWAYS beat them. Thus, we see repeated over and over the same exact story: a threat arises from Peloria, Orlanthi beat it. All the while Peloria shrinks and shrinks and Orlanthi grows and grows. It is, to me, sad, depressing and uninteresting to depict so monotonous and predictable a scenario. But, ultimately, it is about taste. Or, at least, that is what I personally think. I'd certainly be happy to discuss it more if you'd like. Thanks!

I find the effort that has been put into crafting Glorantha's world really impressive. Even if not playing the game it is one of the few games I can think of where I honestly just enjoy reading the lore as well. For the most part this remains my broad assessment. However, after reading a fair amount of it now, I have to also admit there are some things I dislike, or which rub me the wrong way. For the most part these are small, and no human will ever not have some problems with something so it isn't really relevant, but I do really dislike how absolutely everything Yelm-related (and by extension the Peloria region and Dara Happan empire) seem to just suck at everything, particularly when at the same time the history still also tries to present them as important, dominant, players in the macro landscape, politically, culturally and religiously, of Genertela. I know at least most of this probably stems from one root cause: Orlanth and the Orlanthi are designated 'good guys' for the setting and so must usually always come out on top over anything Yelm or Peloria-related in the end. But, even with that being the case, considering the more than 1600 years of history post-Dawn, the question still remains for me: why does Peloria/Dara Happa suck so much? If we trace the general macro-cosmic rivalry of Air-Sky mediated through the resultant conflicts it is virtually ALWAYS Peloria that loses: Starting even all the way at the beginning we've got Orlanth beating Yelm and claiming dominion, followed by an extended period of the Ram people just kicking the ancestors of Dara Happa's butt all over the place. The Six Ages games even now make it so that the only important Yelmite group to come from this period ultimately all converted and became 'Rams' as well. Has Yelm or his representative mortal groups ever actually won any conflict against the Orlanthi outside the brief Lunar occupation of Dragon Pass? Anyway: With the Second Council the Dara Happan Empire at least seems to achieve some sort of stalemate, though only after losing much of Peloria, if not most, to Orlanthi already, but come Arkat-Gbaji and the Pelorians just lose. Again. (On that note, also, Yelm's an incredible pushover when it comes to his turf. Whilst Orlanthi have gone on to turn basically ALL of Genertela outside Kralolera, Teshnos, Pent and a small bit of Peloria into Orlanthi cultural and religious spaces Peloria has...not managed to export its culture or religion even once? Despite being said to be the 'heart of many great empires'? Is there a secret that only Orlanthi culture or religion actually ever spreads and grows and all others just shrink and become subordinated under Orlanthi? Well, I guess different Western/Theyalan also spread to some extent, but usually only if they first accept Orlanth as being foremost in primacy in some way) Then, in the next bout, the EWF just conquers Dara Happa again. Here, nothing really to say, Dara Happa/Peloria just beat again. (Also, Orlanthi keep being called in a lot of the text 'barbarians' and are often contrasted by being disorganized/decentralized against the 'imperial' Pelorians, but that seems bizarre and counterfactual. Until the Lunar Empire no Pelorian Empire ever even managed to rule all of Peloria, they at most ruled most of northern Peloria. The Lunar Empire, the greatest Pelorian Empire by FAR only managed to finally rule all of Peloria, in a time where half of Peloria is now Orlanthi anyway, and then Dragon Pass and a small sliver of Prax. Meanwhile Orlanthi have been at the centre, or literally the leaders of, three massive empires spanning much of Genertela and the world even: The Unity Council, Arkat's Conquests and the EWF. The Orlanthi have a far, far, FAR greater track record as imperial conquerors than the Pelorians could ever hope to have. The Pelorians have literally failed to even maintain control of their full homeland, half of it now being culturally and religiouslly outright Orlanthi or Orlanthi-dominated, whilst Orlanthi have gone on to conquer virtually all Dragon Pass, Prax, Fronela, Kralolera, the East Isles, Fonrit, Umathela, Seshnela, Ralios and more at different points in their history and, in many of those areas, have permanently altered the cultures and religions there to be Orlanthi in nature. Like...Orlanthi are clearly the number 1 most imperial culture, so this weird emphasis on Peloria as the 'seat' of empires is just absolutely bizarre to me when they have some of the tiniest empires ever.) Then the Pelorians spend time dominated by the Carmanians who have an Air God (not Orlanth though, Storm Bull) as their chief deity. Finally with the Lunar Empire the Pelorias experience perhaps the only period of dominance they've ever had since the Dawn (Sheng Seleris' bout withstanding for now) but we already know this story all just ends with the Hero Wars, Peloria losing (again) and once more the same result as always play out: Pelorians lose and some or other Orlanthi group triumphs over them. In this case Argarth seems so overpowered that I don't know why the Pelorians even kept fighting him since he seems to be basically invincible and stronger than the entire rest of the world. Even in the dynamics of the world this seems pretty apparent. Orlanthi numbers exceed Pelorians by a significant margin even though Peloria is a deeply urbanized society focused in an incredibly fertile bowl with a much more centralized population. Orlanthi religion is VASTLY more widespread than Pelorian, than any other religion honestly. Again, they seem to be the only people in all of Glorantha who actually expand, dominate and assimilate others. All other cultures and religions basically have one homeland region which they have never managed to leave and, most of the time, half of that homeland region is now Orlanthi culturally and religiously now. Which is fine but at this point it just remains to me the question of why anyone would bother worshiping Yelm when Yelm's entire histoy post-Dawn is that his worshipers just lose time and time again in every single war they ever have against anyone even vaguely Orlanthi? At this point I'd think any pragmatic human would realize Yelm, and Peloria, are pretty hopeless and mass conversion to Orlanth worship is the only way to actually achieve any meaningful success (particularly now that the only seeming counterargument, the Lunars, have been definitively crushed by Orlanthi as well). So, why does anyone serve Yelm? His magic seems pathetic and weak. His sons lose virtually every fight they get into. Every single empire dedicated to him is crushed by some or other Orlanthi power in swiftly. I don't think a Pelorian Yelm-Pantheon Empire has ever actually even won a single battle (that I can find mention of in the books) against the Orlanthi. Discounting the Lunar Empire for now since they are Lunar-Pantheon predominantly and not Yelm. Or, I guess, the macro question here: why worship anyone but Orlanth? In a world where gods are real and have explicit power levels which let them defeat other gods, and where Orlanth has shown time and time again in every clash in the material world that (outside of Wakboth) he is simply stronger than all other gods, what incentive is there to worship anyone else? More thant that: in a world where only one group of humans seem to win all conflicts and be better than everyone at everything, the Orlanthi, what is the point? Orlanthi are clearly set to conquer the world, they've already almost done it multiple times, and they only ever fall in truth to their own infighting. No external force is ever actually able to threaten them unless, like the Unity Council and EWF, they first fight among themselves. Like, if I was a Pelorian I'd just accept that after a 1600 year history of getting our butts kicked by the Orlanthi every time, of having our homeland conquered by them twice, of most of the south of our homeland now largely being Orlanthi in nature anyway, it is pretty obvious we're just clearly losers and we need to just convert and assimilate because that's already happening. I mean is there any region in Genertela which is traditionally Orlanthi where a different culture/religion has come to power like happened in Southern Peloria which is mostly Orlanthi now? Maybe in Pamaltela, I have not yet read as much about them. So, ultimately, is a textual reason ever given for why Peloria is so pathetic and why the Sky Gods are so incredibly weak?