Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. Gave me lots to think about and also helped me to come to my conclusion.
After this and checking out some further stuff in the books and on well of daliath I can definitely say though that Runequest is not the game for me, I will stick to Call of Cthulhu. I love the effort, respect it, and think many ideas are great, but Glorantha’s narrative history is just a litany of the Pelorians getting their butts kicked over and over and over by the Orlanthi who are just overwhelmingly textually presented as better in every way. Narratively the Orlanthi have a bigger metropolis than Peloria even though Peloria’s defining shtick is being the ‘city’ people. I’m not fond of dynamics such as this in any settings or stories and Orlanthi just clearly being this designated ‘awesome’ people and Pelorians these perennial losers kill most of my motivation to play the game. The Pelorians are such underdogs with a history of almost nothing but being conquered and their homelands slowly being colonized and settled and converted into Orlanthi dominated lands I just feel bad for them.
So, yeah, I don’t like such one-sided arrangements or such clear singling out of only one group of people as exceptional, I am just not a fan of it. Furthermore, the knowledge that the entire threat of the Red Moon and the Lunar Empire are already destroyed and defeated just makes me uninterested to actually play anything. I don’t really care about adventures and such because the ending is already explicitly written: Argarth will beat the Lunar Empire and Sheng on multiple occasions, will destroy the Red Moon and the Empire(s) and conquer most of the Provinces and maybe even more. Just not interesting to me. Like playing 40k but where my codex tells me explicitly already my faction is already dead, absolutely no narrative interest or tension then for me personally.
I’m gonna give a general response because I don’t think necessarily everyone will be interested in reading my detailed responses to each segment.
So, general response:
· I didn’t feel there was much substantive actually given concerning my core conceit here. A lot of the answers didn’t really address my query “Why is Peloria/Dara Happa discussed as a major hegemonic/imperial centre when in its history it has never been close to that except for, briefly, during the Lunar Empire.” Instead, a lot of the answers I think misinterpreted my query and dealt with metrics I wasn’t talking about. Nothing really disputed in any material way the simply existing facts that despite many of the books insisting Peloria was some hegemonic centre of power it has, save for the Lunar Empire, failed to ever be so and has lost every single war it has fought against Orlanthi hegemons, including being conquered by Orlanthi hegemons, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire’s century of ascendancy ending with Argath. My core concern still remains: why does Peloria lose every single significant engagement, fail to build any serious empires compared to the history of empire building on a far vaster scale we see from the Orlanthi, yet still get treated as some sort of hegemonic centre? Furthermore, when Orlanthi hegemons rise they, like all hegemons in reality do, bring about the conversion of conquered spaces to their cultural and religious sphere. We see this in the West, southern Peloria, Umathela etc. etc. but Pelorian culture has simply never successfully spread to and converted another region in a similar fashion, even the Lunar Empire’s 400 year reign of Peloria did not diminish the explicitly stated Orlanthi dominance of the ‘Provinces’ per the Guide to Glorantha. Even numbers support this, with Pelorians being definitively given as the smallest major culture of Genertela. Again, this explicitly does not accord with hegemonic power. When the Achamenids became hegemonic it saw the expansion of Iranian culture to most of the Near East, the Argeads and their Diadochi led to the cultural Hellenization of much of the eastern Mediterranean world, Pax Romana saw incredible numerous and diffuse groups adopt and identify as Roman, in both culture and religion and Sinicization under successive Dynasties achieved much the same. All evidence indicates that Peloria has never been, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire, anything like a hegemonic or imperial force of note.
· I found the historical comparisons not convincing. The Roman Empire? Alexander the Great? The boundaries of these states extended WELL beyond the traditional homelands or powerbases of the respective city and individual. Again, to emphasize, the Lunar Empire is the first Pelorian Empire in history to just manage to secure all of their homeland even. To compare it to the Argead Empire (and its Diadochi) who successfully united their homeland of Macedon, dominated their northern neighbours, conquered almost all of the independent Greek Polis (already considered major powers at the time) and then proceeded to defeat and conquer the Achamenid Empire, the hyper power of their time, before also incorporating many northern Indian kingdoms just does not fit at all. The EWF, Arkat or Sheng are clearly the only comparable scopes there. The Lunar Empire would be similar if Alexander conquered Macedon, then maybe conquered Thrace for a century, then briefly held the Greek Polities for 30 years before his whole empire was destroyed. Similarly, the Roman Republic – Empire was able to unite their home territory very early in their history (comparatively of course, as all things in history are) and then spread out to vastly, vastly, more than that. To compare the Lunar Empire to that is simply not appropriate. The Lunar Empire secures Peloria, yes. They then, for about 30 years, secure all of Dragon Pass and Prax. That is, it. That is the extent of their Imperial rule. That is a far cry from what Orlanthi had already achieved centuries before and it is also the greatest extent of Pelorian conquest in history. I just do not think you can compare the Lunar Empire to the Roman Empire at all.
· What I do find convincing is the point that Dara Happa isn’t actually that important. The mistake is in thinking of it as a hegemonic centre for Solar Pantheon worship and that, instead, this should be shifted to Pentans. I get this a little, Pentans certainly do rule Peloria early on, the first of Peloria’s many, many, MANY conquerors and the Celestial Empire is definitely far more comparable to what Orlanthi hegemons have achieved than anything Peloria ever manages, uniting virtually all of Genertela east of the Wastes and then also subduing Prax and much of Peloria. That, I can kind of buy, but then reinforces to me that it is a completely informed trait that the books keep stressing Peloria, and Dara Happa in particular, as some important hegemonic force in history. Put simply, since time actually began, Dara Happa’s history is (with the exception of the Lunar period) a history of hastily trying to respond to foreign aggression, losing influence and primacy over southern Peloria, and ultimately being repeatedly conquered by Pentans, Malkioni and Orlanthi.
French Desperate WindChild:
You’re right, I should have said ‘protagonists’ instead of ‘good guys’. I get what you mean and, to be clear, I don’t think the Air Pantheon or the Orlanthi are ‘morally good’, they are pretty horrific in their warmongering, and they are explicitly the most successful imperialists in the history of Glorantha, which is explicitly horrific and there is nothing good about it. They are, however, clearly written as the protagonists of the entire world, defeating all their enemies repeatedly, establishing by far the strongest hegemons and being the largest culture and religion across the world.
So, as I already said I don’t find these historical comparisons convincing. What I will add on here though: yes, post the conquest of the Greek City-States by Rome they were never, ever, considered major hegemonic powers again. Even before that, post the King’s Peace the status of the Greek City-States as powerful polities was past. Sparta, Athena and Thebes were not considered dominant players as they had been before. When Alexander died and the resulting Diadochi wars gave space for independent Greek polities again none of them became major players except for the newer Epirus and the Hellenic Eastern regimes, none of them the classical Greek City-States of old. That is the thing about hegemonic primacy. If conquered and definitively crushed and defeated it is rarely retained. Not never. But rarely. Following the King’s Peace, the Greek City-States never were a hegemonic force again, and not treated as such by their geopolitical peers either. Similarly post Dara Happa’s third conquest by foreign forces, and post Peloria’s loss of primacy and influence across their entire southern half, the idea of anyone considering them a serious hegemonic centre is laughable. Particularly after Argarth destroys the entire Lunar Empire as well.
I get what you mean here and, fair enough, not all people want to just accumulate further power to themselves. However, states do. History shows time and time again that states will rapidly adopt and change to whatever weapons and tools seem to be most effective at securing their expansion of power.
In that case, considering the Pelorian rulers have seen on three separate occasions that in any largescale conflict against the Air Pantheon the Sky Pantheon always loses the fact that the government and state officials, not the people, have not converted to worship of the Air Pantheon makes no sense.
If I am a ruler of Dara Happa my first interest is maintaining and expanding my own power. I can see in my own recent history that every time a Pelorian and Orlanthi hegemon have clashed, from Arkat through the EWF to Argarth, the Orlanthi hegemon has ALWAYS ultimately triumphed. Thus, I know what the more effective tool is for securing my power and dominance better. It is just rational.
That is, at least, my view of it. Thank you for the insights though, I appreciate it!
Scott-martin:
I’m not exactly sure what you mean, so I apologize in advance if maybe I'm misrepresenting anything with my response. Hybridization between Malkioni and Orlanthi is definitely the defining feature of Western Genertela, for sure, but that is sort of what I am saying. Orlanthi culture has gone on to dominate much of Western Genertela, with some regions in the Guide to Glorantha Volume 1 just explicitly being described as Orlanthi now. Again, we have this pattern that Orlanthi seems to be the only culture which has the ability to change the dominant culture of a region, with many prior Malkioni and Pelorian regions now in the Guide to Glorantha Vol 1 being described as culturally dominated by Orlanthi peoples.
I’ll admit I don’t know much about Orlanthi-types in Kralorela so I’ll defer to you on that.
I think we are talking past each other here perhaps: I’m defining success here by the metric of the books repeatedly stressing Dara Happa as a hegemonic centre of Imperial Power. It is, very clearly, not that considering its Pentan neighbours (and far more its Orlanthi ones) are explicitly clearly far greater hegemonic forces which regularly conquer all of Peloria whilst Dara Happa has barely ever managed to even conquer all of Peloria. Furthermore, it is clearly not a major hegemonic power since a hallmark of such status is cultural expansion and Peloria, rather than a spreading culture, explicitly has seen almost half of it lose its Pelorian culture with, again, the Guide to Glorantha describing the Provinces as mostly Orlanthi now, not Pelorian. In this regard, unsurprisingly considering the well of daliath and the Guide to Glorantha both describe Pelorian/Lunar as the smallest major cultures of Genertela, the Pelorians have been in a precipitous decline since the 1st age, Orlanthi culture and Air-Pantheon Worship steadily rising from the south to convert first all of Southern Peloria and now by the time of Argarth reaching even Saird. Meanwhile, by contrast, Peloria has never successfully altered the cultural make-up of any territory to be Pelorian or Sky-Pantheon Worship.
So, the fact that there might be periods where Dara Happa simply insularly operates fine when one of its many conquerors is not currently in power isn’t meeting the criterion for success here that I am discussing. I’m not saying there aren’t periods where small little Dara Happa putters on unnoticed by the great Orlanthi and Malkioni Empires of the world, I’m saying that Dara Happa clearly has no pre-Lunar history as a hegemonic or imperial core.
Furthermore, I’ll be honest, I don’t even know how true it is that there are long stretches of time where northern Peloria just operates as a sovereign state. At the start of the Dawn, they are conquered by Pentans. Then they are briefly conquered by the Council before forming an independent Empire only as a desperate reaction to conquest. This empire then knows only war until the point where it is willing to become a part of Dorastor’s Broken Council, the inheriting polity of the Orlanthi-shaped council. Dara Happa then enjoys a time of some respite as part of this hybrid regime before being decisively defeated and conquered by Orlanthi, ending with the emperor’s surrender at Yelm’s Footstool to an explicitly Theyalan host. Peloria is then explicitly ruled over by Orlanthi. Eventually the Dara Happans throw off the Orlanthi rulers and what follows is seemingly the longest period of peace Dara Happa knows, but even this is not a time of great power as Dara Happa still remains just a small empire limited to northern Peloria, whilst by now most of its southern homeland is largely converting to Orlanthi and Pelorian culture is shrinking. Then comes the EWF and Peloria is, for the second time, completely conquered by Orlanthi and Carmanians (Theyalan people with an Air Deity as their most popular deity). Ultimately Dara Happa gets independent of the EWF only to immediately be conquered by Carmania.
Then we get the Lunar Empire and, there, I fully agree that the Lunar Empire is the one period of some degree of Pelorian dominance. For the first time in Pelorian history they are even able to secure their homeland, though we know ultimately the Lunar Empire is also doomed to collapse and Argarth will conquer, at the least, all the Lunar Provinces if not also the rest of Peloria (putting Peloria under Orlanthi rule for a third time if he does so).
So, I don’t quite see their history as having long stretches of relative autonomy. At most they have post the Arkat Wars and during the Lunar Empire two periods of relative autonomous stability, but in only one of those periods do they establish themselves as anything resembling a hegemonic power and, even then, a very small power compared to what has come before.
I’m afraid I don’t exactly see the relevance of this. At least from what I’ve read Peloria/Dara Happa’s collapse are almost always just the result of external conquest: Pentans, Orlanthi or Carmanian. I don’t quite see where the internal aspect comes into this. Considering we’ve seen how southern Peloria was converted to Orlanthi culture it is quite clear that when ruled over by Orlanthi Pelorian culture does just assimilate and abandon the Sky-Pantheon for the Air-Pantheon instead. A rational decision to make when you cannot defeat your conquerors and one defeated people have made throughout history.
To give just my two cents: it is pretty clear Pelorian Culture and Sky-worship (as it is in Peloria) is doomed to extinction at the hands of Orlanthi and Air-Pantheon encroachment. We’ve already seen between the 1st and 2nd Ages Orlanthi culture and Air-Pantheon come to dominate southern Peloria and with Orlanthi conquests set to now undo the Lunar Empire as well, the only Pelorian polity to ever seem to be able to offer some resistance, it is probably just a matter of time before northern Peloria follows suit and, like Fronela and Ralios, Peloria just becomes another syncretised Orlanthi Air-dominated region.
This is, at least, my perspective on this, particularly after reading the current crop of books and their consistent insistence on the very large scope of Orlanthi cultural and religious spread and frequent conquest of Peloria by Orlanthi regimes.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s why I mentioned both Dara Happa and Peloria. More broadly speaking I am discussing the Pelorians, the indigenous people of the Pelorian basin, but as Dara Happa is the only significant indigenous polity to every emerge from Peloria it was just where my focus was (before the Lunar Empire of course).
Indeed, they very much resemble to me the historical mercantile polities of the Bay of Bengal. Very wealthy, but with little power and so almost always falling under the rulership of some or other stronger state which could militarily conquer them but found advantage in allowing them to carry on much as they had. As a polity Dara Happa must have one of the longest track records for being conquered by foreign powers in all of Glorantha: first by Pentans, then Dorastor, then Orlanthi, then Orlanthi again, then Carmanians, then Pentans and now probably Orlanthi again after the Hero Wars.
I’m going to be honest I don’t see how it could ever have pretensions to universal rule. The Golden Empire I’m not really interested in, that was a literal divine hegemony, and it was ended by Orlanth anyway so it was again defeated by Air Gods, but I’m only interested in the states once time actually exists.
Even at the height of its power (pre-Lunar) Dara Happa never controlled more than just northern Peloria. There are no other nations considered ‘Pelorian’ outside of the Dara Happan Empire either. Meanwhile polities explicitly described in Guide to Glorantha Vol 1 as Orlanthi and Orlanthi-dominated rule much of Fronela, Ralios, all of Dragon Pass, some of Prax and much of Kethaela.
If we look at the Lunar Empire, undoubtedly the strongest native Pelorian hegemon in history, it still had a maximum extent of just securing Peloria, Dragon Pass and some of Prax and the Holy Country. It also lost almost all its lands outside Peloria in an about 30-year span and then proceeded to in one lifetime lose all the Provinces and collapse 3 times in quick succession. I don’t really feel like that can be compared to something like the EWF at all. Even Arkat established longer Orlanthi rule over Peloria and that was still not actually such a long period.
I will admit it I find it kind of ironic that the Dragonkill War, a war mostly about Pelorians getting killed, also as a side-effect wiped out the Orlanthi civilizations of Dragon Pass even though they actually tried to help the dragons!
I’ll admit for me this sort of technical assessment does not help. One can describe the specifications of a weapon but if that weapon in multiple conflicts fails to defeat your enemies, then the specifications of the weapon are irrelevant, your enemies clearly have stronger weapons. Yelm’s worshiping forces have time and again demonstrated that in war they will ALWAYS lose to Orlanth. Dara Happa was conquered by Orlanthi under Arkat, the Pentans before them were defeated by the Unity Council which worshiped the Lightbringers, Dara Happa was again defeated by the Orlanthi under the EWF and by the Carmanians who have connections to the Air Gods and, finally, both the Lunar Empire and Sheng Seleris were defeated and destroyed by Argarth. In every war we see always that ultimately it is always Air Gods that defeat Sky Gods. If your weapon never manages to defeat your opponent, it is not a worthwhile weapon. Intelligent polities adapt to more effective weapons as the number one driving priority of states is the securing and expansion of their own power.
Also, that last part seems to clash with the Lightbringer myth which is far more widely spread which definitely doesn’t say that Orlanth went against his will to see Yelm and instead puts emphasis mostly on Orlanth willingly and voluntarily doing this action and securing recognition from Yelm for it.
The way I see it from the books Yelm is, pretty clearly, a loser.
I find this very interesting though, thank you for bringing it to my attention! I hadn’t thought of it before but Pent is the more powerful between them and Peloria, so this is something I’ll read up on. I’ll admit though I just read the Cults: Mythology book today and it says the Second Council decisively crushed the Pentans and that only after that were they fought to a standstill by the Dara Happan Empire.
I assume this Third Age Empire is the Sheng one? A pity, again, it ended the moment it clashed with any Orlanthi force.
Can Air Pantheon Empires never actually be defeated by Sky Pantheon Empires? Blegh, not a fan of that personally. Whole history just seems like a litany of Air-worshiping peoples always beating Sky-worshiping peoples, I find that uninteresting personally.
Richard S:
I don’t quite feel I agree with this. When going through the Guide to Glorantha Books they frequently make mention of many nations as having ‘Orlanthi’ culture and ‘Orlanth’ religion. Meanwhile there is just VERY little mention of nations with ‘Pelorian’ culture or ‘Yelm’ religion. Considering just the big discrepancy in population numbers given, and with so many more cultures worshiping Orlanth than Yelm, I just don’t think it is possible for Yelm’s cult to have anywhere near the influence of Orlanth’s.
I mean Orlanth’s Cult is THE dominant cult throughout all of Dragon Pass, much of the Holy Country, much of Fronela, Ralios and the Jrusteli. By contrast Yelm’s cult is described as dominant only in northern Peloria and, even then, it is now eclipsed by the Red Goddess. To be blunt, per the numbers given at the back of the Cults: Mythology book about number of cult members throughout the Lunar Empire, Maniria, Holy Country, Prax and Dragon Pass Yelm is actually a pretty small deity with rather low numbers.
Metcalph:
Considering the Theyalans simply return under Arkat and conquer all of Peloria I don’t really see the battle of Night and Day as impressive, personally, just the middle part of a war which, once again, Peloria loses. It is one battle in a longer conflict which ends with the Orlanthi-side winning, Orlanthi ruling Peloria and the story even kind of implies an inherent evil in Dara Happa by making it that the moment Dara Happa joins the ritual the Orlanthi leave, warning everyone it is a mistake to involve Dara Happa, and they wind up being right as Nysalor is made. Not really fond of the way the Pelorians seem to be inherently evil. Furthermore, the fact that the Orlanthi hired Trolls and Malkioni to win doesn’t matter to me. Winning is winning. If Peloria always loses because it is too stupid to use strategies to win that is their fault, not the Orlanthi’s for just being smarter. Reminds me of the well of daliath post which points out that the Lunar Army was actually just very, very dumb and the only reason they seemed to do well was because they had magic but the moment, they ever went up against anyone who could negate that they were such incompetent commanders and warriors they got destroyed.
The expulsion was in part heavily due to internal problems within the EWF and also backed by Carmania. I agree totally it’s a case of Pelorians actually eking out a win, nice, a pity they are immediately conquered by Carmania but, sure, the eventual collapse of the EWF is true.
Yeah, for the Lunar ones, definitely. As I’ve said the Lunar Empire is clearly the one period where Pelorians were actually a hegemonic force, at least within their homeland. A pity we already know they just get wiped out by Argarth. Yet again Orlanthi forces always triumph against Pelorian.
I’m afraid I don’t know what to say. This is the sequence of events from the Cults: Mythology book. It explicitly says Dara Happa and the Second Council fought and that then the Third Council made peace and invited Dara Happa to join them. No mention is made of an invasion by Dara Happa or of Dara Happa as the dominant force.
Where’s this other version come from, if I may ask, I’d love to read it.
I’m using the definition from the Guide to Glorantha. It calls numerous nations in Ralios, Fronela, the Holy Country and all of the Lunar Provinces as being dominated and populated by Orlanthi cultures.
The Sun Domes exist, certainly, as there are ethnic minorities everywhere, but none of the regions with the Sun Domes are described as being dominated by a Pelorian Culture or a Sky Pantheon save for those already in northern Peloria.
Southern Peloria: Imther, Aggar, Talastar etc. etc are all in the guide explicitly said to be culturally Orlanthi and per Mythology: Cults in all these places Orlanth either holds the same number of worshipers as Yelm or more.
I do not think that it is at all a bizarre statement to make that Orlanthi culture has clearly been far, far, FAR more successful at propagating itself and its beliefs across Glorantha. The presence of Sun Domes in an area doesn’t mean Pelorian Culture is dominant there. Meanwhile the books explicitly say several parts of the West, of Pamaltela, the Holy Country and southern Peloria are dominated by Orlanthi and Air Worship. Perhaps I am missing something, so feel free to let me know if there is a book I could look at to for this, but outside of northern Peloria the Guides to Glorantha do not describe any other states or regions as dominated by Pelorian culture or worship of Yelm, whilst numerous, numerous states and regions, including all of southern Peloria, are explicitly stated to now be largely dominated by Orlanthi peoples and worship of Orlanthi-pantheons.
For example, to go just by those Praxian numbers you’ve got:
· Bison are 5% Orlanthi
· High Llama are 5% Orlanthi
· Impala are 13%
· Morokanth are more Seven Sisters for sure
· Pol-Joni are 25
· Rhino are 7
· Unicorn I’ll concede
· Zebra I guess are irrelevant
· Sable are of course very Lunar, agreed
I think they key confusion here is you seem to be thinking I’m saying that there are no Pelorian cultural minorities in other places. There are, typically in Orlanthi dominated southern Peloria.
But that is the point. Peloria has not spread to become a dominant culture in any other region (a hallmark of actual hegemony) whilst, by comparison, Orlanthi has not only spread to become the dominant culture of numerous regions but has even dominated southern Peloria and made almost half of the Pelorian homeland now be a region in which Pelorians themselves, and Sky Pantheon worship, are a minority within their ancestral homelands, now largely ruled and populated by Orlanthi peoples and Air Pantheons.
That is the point I am making. Not that there aren’t cultural minorities, of course there are small pockets of Pelorians still in southern Peloria, but Orlanthi now dominate there, whilst there is no region which was once Orlanthi where the Orlanthi are now a cultural minority dominated by a new Pelorian cultural majority.
Also, as for the Rome part, again I see no viable comparison. The Roman Empire DID result in vast swathes of the world culturally, religiously and linguistically identifying as and claiming to be Roman. Meanwhile Peloria has never achieved this anywhere (save perhaps Carmania). By contrast Guide to Glorantha 1 explicitly tells us that Orlanthi hegemony transformed much of Western Genertela and Southern Peloria into Orlanthi dominated regions culturally, linguistically and religiously. Guide to Glorantha 1 when discussing the Lunar Provinces (so southern Peloria) explicitly says Orlanth was the prime deity prior to the Lunar Empire's domination and even after their domination it is Ernalda and Barntar who are now described as most populous.
There is simply no comparison to Rome's cultural conversion of massive regions of Europe, the Near East and North Africa into culturally and linguistically 'Roman' regions and Peloria's lack of achieving any conversion of any conquered regions into 'Pelorian' regions. Most damning despite ruling the Provinces for 400 years Guide to Glorantha 1 still states that southern Peloria is populated by Orlanthi peoples who follow Orlanthi culture and largely follow Air or Earth Pantheons. This can be compared clearly to how when Orlanthi hegemony emerged it successfully converted much of western Genertela and southern Peloria into regions which are now described per the Guide to Glorantha 1 as being populated by Orlanthi peoples predominantly with Orlanthi cultures and Pantheons.
I hope I made my point clear, again, if I misunderstood anything let me know!
Darius West:
Agreed. As a pantheon, and the resulting polities, Sky seems to be absolutely idiotic and bereft even of the rational self-interest the most basic of polities have. They will gladly lose war after war after war to Orlanthi hegemons and change nothing, necessitating their eventual destruction.
Agreed, Pelorians are subjugated near constantly, primarily by Pentans and Orlanthi, so I am surprised more have not adopted the Orlanthi ways in northern Peloria/Dara Happa.
Technical specifications mean nothing if they do not actually deliver results in warfare. The Phalanx Formation, these Rune Spells, are clearly not effective as despite possessing them Peloria’s history is one of near constant defeat and loss.
I get what you mean but, for me, this is personally irrelevant. If your enemies defeat, you because they are smarter that changes nothing. Winning is winning, this just shows again why the Sky Pantheon, and Pelorians, suck so much. They are just really, really, dumb. I remember there is even a well of daliath post about how the Lunar Empire is actually very stupid strategically and tactically and just relies on magic as a crutch. Unless Fazzur Wideread is involved because, again, obviously, as an Orlanthi he is just inherently superior to all the Lunar Pelorian commanders in history.
Joerg:
I am probably missing something, but I don’t see how any of this challenges or disputes what I am saying. If anything, as I’ve dug deeper now, and supported by this, how much Yelm, the Sky Pantheon and Peloria sucks just seems to deepen. Not only are they a shrinking culture who are near constantly conquered by either Orlanthi or Pentans but, in addition, they are monstrously sexist to an almost insane extent and seem to be inherently immoral since their mere involvement in the Council’s project immediately tipped the Orlanthi off to the fact that the project would now be evil.
Yelm, the Sky Pantheon, Peloria, everything about them seems to exist just to be an awful place of losers who are bad and suck so that the Orlanthi can beat their asses over and over kid. Like nerdy loser kids being constantly picked on by everyone in the neighbourhood, from Malkioni Carmanians, Pentans and Orlanthi, for their lunch money.
Yeah, and every age ends with the ‘Solars’ decisively defeated and conquered. As you point out, also, the Solars only ever achieve success by joining, usually, with other non-Solars who already are conquering them. In addition, the Solar hegemons are always incredibly small, the Dara Happan Empire which emerged from the Broken Council ruled only northern Peloria with Dorastor as the seat of the greater government, the Dara Happa which worked with the Carmanians controlled, in conjunction with them, only most of Peloria before their destruction in Dragon Pass. By comparison the Dawn Age conquests by Arkat saw Orlanthi and Trolls and Lightbringer forces ruling everything from Western Genertela to Peloria and the EWF even more than that. There is a clear, CLEAR discrepancy in the imperial extent and hegemonic influence exerted by the two cultural centres. Again, one can just look at the Guide to Glorantha and Well of Daliath posts on culture numbers and religion which both agree that Pelorians/Sky Pantheon are the smallest in Genertela and exceeded by Orlanthi/Air Pantheon by a significant margin. This alone is a clear indication of the vastly superior hegemonic and imperial status of Orlanthi/Air Pantheon over anything Pelorian/Sky Pantheon and I feel should surprise no-one considering how successful Orlanthi conquerors are and how unsuccessful Peloria is at just about anything other than living in their small corner of the world.
The Pelorian hegemons, until the Lunar Empire, barely exert any influence outside of Peloria. Orlanthi hegemons typically exert, at a minimum, influence over all of Genertela west of the Wastes, including, often all of Peloria itself. In addition, what influence is exerted by Pelorian hegemons never, for some reason, establishes culture conversion. Whilst the Guide to Glorantha identifies virtually all of the Lunar Provinces, much of Ralios and Fronela as now being Orlanthi populated due to Orlanthi hegemonic spread, there is not a single region in the entire Guide identified as having become Pelorian populated due to any Pelorian hegemonic spread. Indeed, bafflingly to me, even though the Lunar Empire has ruled the Provinces for 400 years now, they are still in the Guide identified as primarily being of the Orlanthi culture and not Pelorian. Indicating, if anything, that the Empire has a pathetically weak hegemonic core. Most empires, by dint of necessity to maintain power, have to exercise a degree of cultural conversion. This happens in virtually every empire in history which exists for more than a single conqueror’s generation. The Lunar Empire, though, seems to not even be able to achieve this. Which does explain why all the Provinces very rapidly simply submit to Argarth, being an Orlanthi hegemon, their natural superiors.
Looking at it even just from a narrative perspective the cycle you mention is exactly what I am talking about. It is boring to me. The history we are presented is just an endless set of wars where Orlanthi ALWAYS win in the end and conquer Peloria. It just makes me feel bad for how pathetic Peloria is.
It also, again, emphasizes my other problem: Orlanthi are inherently treated as better and more exceptional. As you say yourself the pinnacle of civilization who only ever even risk defeat to the Solars because members of their own civilization betray them and, ultimately, it is always the Orlanthi that triumph.
Now, I totally get this isn't a problem for anyone. That's fine. For me, personally though, it is something I deeply just dislike.
Sure, and I speak under correction here because there may be context I do not understand, but what you describe there just make this sound like another failed attempt by Pelorians to have any serious influence or power.
Therein lies a big problem then for me. So, they always just lose in the end. They just do sorta okay before being ultimately always crushed and conquered.
But then being defeated by Arkat and Orlanthi ruling over Peloria for a generation before the EWF proceeds to rule for even longer. Now, again, here I do want to add that maybe I am missing context, but at least after reading the Guides and the Cults books, nowhere has it yet implied that when Dragon Pass was conquered by the Broken Circle was this an exclusively Pelorian thing, it presented it as a Dorastor-Broken Circle thing, which Dara Happa was just now a willing member of.
Yeah, for sure, northern Peloria did manage to regain independence, briefly, before the EWF Orlanthi conquered them. Again here, at best, Peloria/Dara Happa scrapes out ‘we manage to not die’ whilst Orlanthi multiple times in a row conquer the entire Pelorian region and have culturally converted virtually all of southern Peloria to the point where the Guides describe southern Peloria as being predominantly populated by Orlanthi peoples, not Pelorian, and the Cults: Mythology books definitively have Orlanth and Air worship exceed Sky worship there.
There is a very telling difference in scope of impact. Dara Happa scrapes by, in the north, never managing to affect any significant presence or conquest of Orlanthi hegemons, whilst Orlanthi hegemons not only regularly conquer all of Peloria but are even steadily culturally converting Peloria into just another Orlanthi-dominated region.
Agreed, the eventual defeat of the EWF was caused by Pelorians, Malkioni, Orlanthi and, more importantly, Dragonewts. It was in no way some primarily Pelorian success. In addition, we again see this very different treatment. When the EWF conquered Peloria they dominate it for centuries of Orlanthi rule over Peloria. When Arkat comes to Peloria he decisively wins, subjugates the entire region successfully, then lives in peace a victor. When Peloria just takes part in a joint victory over an Orlanthi hegemon they have their entire military age male populace extinguished. There is never a moment of lasting triumph for Peloria, even when they are part of an eventually joint success over some or other Orlanthi hegemon. We see this repeated in Dragonrise where the Lunar Empire seems to finally actually achieve the first ever case in history of Pelorian dominance over Orlanthi, only to immediately have it all collapse and a new Orlanthi hegemon not only reverse all their conquests but also proceed to conquer all of southern Peloria and even destroy the Red Moon.
Yes, agreed, the Lunar Empire is the sole actual period of Pelorian hegemonic influence of any sort. A pity we already know it is destroyed, yet again by an Orlanthi hegemon, and we also know that even after 400 years of rule it affects no significant cultural conversion in any of its conquered territories, the hallmark of hegemonic pull.
Yes, except, again, there is a MASSIVE discrepancy in power and scope. The EWF conquer all of Peloria and much of the entire world. The Lunar Empire, at its greatest, had solid rule of Peloria, some rule over Dragon Pass and Prax, minimal conquest of Holy Country, and this greatest extent lasted at most 30 years before, rapidly, the Lunar Empire shrunk to just the Heartland before that collapsed too against an Orlanthi hegemon (this time both Pelorian AND Pentan empires were defeated by the same Orlanthi hegemon!) There is simply no comparison between the imperial status of the EWF and a minnow like the Lunar Empire.
Yes, a historical cycle which is defined by constant Pelorian loss against Orlanthi hegemony. I also don’t personally see how the Yelmalio Cult can be seen as dominant. Per Guide 1 everywhere south of Dara Happa proper is Orlanthi and the guide even notes that prior to the Lunar conquest of these regions Orlanth had been that main deity and that, now, it is Ernalda and Barntar. Yelmalio is only mentioned as being important in Saird, nowhere else. If we also look at southern Peloria Cult numbers in the Mythology: Cults book we see that in Aggar, Imther, Talastar, Brolia, Anadiki and Vanch Orlanth worship is always considerably larger than Yelmalio worship. Indeed, in Aggar, Talasatar, Anadiki and Brolia there is not much Yelmalio worship at all. Throughout all of southern Peloria only in Hoolay is Yelmalio at least EQUAL to the degree of Orlanth worship. This is after 400 years of Lunar efforts to suppress Orlanth worship as well.
So, I do not really see how Yelmalio can be argued to have been the dominant faith or figure here. It is very clearly stated in Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults that southern Peloria is culturally and religious Orlanthi in nature, not Pelorian, with just some significant Pelorian minority presences.
It is very clear that throughout much of the ‘West’ Orlanth worship, in some form or another, is much more present than Yelm worship. In Guide 1, when discussing Fronela, no mention is made under religion of any significant Sky presence. Instead, it is noted that Orlanth worship is, in some form or another, prevalent and influential in: Northern Fronela, Jonatela, Janube States and Junora. It is very, very clear that whatever Sky influence there maybe it is vastly overshadowed by Air/Orlanthi influence in the West.
Teshnos I think is interesting, I want to read more on them. Or, if I planned to continue with Runequest I would have. I agree that, depending on how wants to think of it, maybe Teshnos is similar to Peloria, but then it is not due to actual overt cultural conversion, as per Orlanthi, but simply coincidence. This is quite clearly seen in how much of Western Genertela not only has syncretized with the Orlanthi faith, but also become dominated by Orlanthi populations, whilst nothing of Teshnos is described as dominated or even inhabited by Pelorian populations.
Yeah, Sheng is interesting. Again, a pity we already know he just winds up being defeated by the Orlanthi.
I think you are misunderstanding a bit what I am discussing here. Again, in this case, sure, Teshnos, Vormain and Kralorela have Sky Pantheons, but none are the result of Pelorian hegemonic influence, as seen in how there is no Pelorian culture in any of these regions. Contrast that with Orlanthi spread which has also seen Orlanthi cultures now dominate much of the world, becoming per the Guide 1 the largest population in the world, as they spread.
Which was promptly crushed by Arkat, Malkioini, Trolls and Orlanthi. Then Theyalans ruled Peloria for a generation. Dara Happa alone regained independence and was shortly afterwards conquered by Malkioini in the Carmanians and Orlanthi in the EWF. Again, just a history of scraping by from being conquered by one group of foreign rulers to another.
Still Orlanthi and followers of the Air Pantheon. That the EWF had to beat some other Orlanthi doesn’t change anything, Dara Happa also infights regularly. It is an Orlanthi hegemon which dominated, yet again, Peloria. It was not a Sky Pantheon nor a Pelorian hegemony.
The Sun Dragon doesn’t need to be a Dragon Pass Orlanthi. It is stated explicitly in the Guide 1 that the inhabitants of southern Peloria are Orlanthi Air-worshippers. I don’t exclude them from this. They are still, definitively, called Orlanthi in the books.
Which, again, is tiny. Orlanthi influence spreads throughout all of Genertela and to Pamaltela. Additionally, I don’t understand why southern Peloria and Sun Dome Temples keep getting brought up. Again, per Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults the ‘Solar Hill Barbarians’ are described as being Orlanthi culturally and Orlanth as having been their primary deity until the Lunar Conquests after which Ernalda and Barntar are described as their main deities. Again, per Mythology: Cults, Hoolay is the only region in southern Peloria where Yelmalio worship even equals Orlanth.
Yelmalio worship certainly exists as an important minority within southern Peloria, but it is also explicitly state that religiously and culturally the population of southern Peloria is first and foremost Orlanthi, even after 400 years of Lunar rule.
I do not agree with this personally, there are constant rebellions in Dara Happa against Dara Happan hegemons. Hegemon is determined by ruling class, which was Orlanthi, not by ‘did every single member of this culture like the hegemon,’. If we use this metric of ‘has this hegemon ever had a rebellion of its own culture,’ no state would ever qualify.
All wise conquerors adapt local administration to suit their needs. Again, for me, this isn’t really relevant. The damning evidence is in the way Orlanthi culture alone has successfully converted regions, including much of Peloria, to the point that books explicitly call these regions now as being populated by Orlanthi, whilst Peloria has never managed to spread at all.
Yes, agreed, this is what I’m saying. Whilst Pelorian hegemons have never managed to expand their culture into any part of Orlanthi homelands the Orlanthi have successfully converted much of southern Peloria to be Orlanthi culture instead.
Two things I would say here are:
1. If we look at only the 3rd age, I agree the Pentans are the only contenders. Here, again, though we see a trend I dislike. Sheng conquers and defeats virtually only Sky Pantheon cultures. Then, the first time he has a war against an Air Pantheon/Orlanthi nation, he loses immediately, and his entire empire is destroyed.
2. Me, personally, I am looking at things not just in the 3rd age, and the conquests of Arkat and the EWF VASTLY outstrip Sheng Seleris. Furthermore, what I dislike, is that even the greatest Sky conqueror, Sheng, can only really beat other Sky cultures, losing the first time he faces an Orlanthi hegemon, whilst Arkat and the EWF decisively defeat Sky Pantheon cultures. This once more, for me reinforces what I mean by the fact that the Sky Pantheon is clearly pathetically weak, only able to even really contend when fighting itself and always doomed to defeat against the Air Pantheon/Orlanthi.
The EWF, per Mythology: Cults at least, are simply stated outright to during the 2nd Age have had the greatest power in all of Glorantha’s history, so that at least seems to confirm they were greater than the God Leaners. Not that this matters much to me since during the Imperial Age all of Peloria was just subjugated and they never even had a significant empire of their own.
I’m going to concede on the Carmanians. There is a well of daliath post which calls Carmanians Lunars which clearly implies they have culturally converted to Pelorians. I will accept that Carmanians are the one example in history of Pelorian cultural expansion. Still a VERY clear gulf between them and Orlanthi but, at least, it is something.
This just makes the Lunar Empire, and Sheng’s, defeats even more embarrassing but, by now, par for the course whenever Pelorian losers think they can stand up to their rightful Orlanthi betters and conquerors.
Per well of daliath at least it is stated that by the late Dragon Pass Kingdom Sartar ruled, along with the Provinces, much of the Holy Country as well. That clearly indicates that, even if not Esrolia itself, much of the Holy Country comes under Argarth’s rule.
No, but it is clear indication that Hispanic is widely distributed because two massive imperial hegemons, Portugal and Spain, exerted great domination over the world. Similarly, for example, there is a low degree of Amharic language and cultural spread and we do not, in macro-history, consider the Abyssinian, Aksumite or Ethiopian polities of the Horn to have ever been particularly significant hegemons. So, too, Peloria is clearly not a significant hegemonic presence vis-a-vis the Orlanthi hegemonic dominance.
Language, culture and religion spread follow hegemonic dominance, are markers of imperial power. That they have spread does not mean all legacies are currently united, but those legacies exist for a reason. In this case that reason is that Orlanthi is the single greatest imperializing hegemonic force in Glorantha.
Orlanthi don’t have to be united to have hegemonic dominance. That their culture and religion is the most widespread, by far, is already material evidence of their hegemonic dominance.
Similarly, Argarth doesn't seem to struggle much with infighting among his Orlanthi supporters. Considering he simply defeats the entire Lunar Empire, the entire Empire of Sheng and proceeds to conquer all of Dragon Pass, the Provinces, much of Prax and the Holy Country, Orlanthi infighting is clearly not a very significant threat. Lunar Empire infighting, and thus Sky Pantheon infighting, is clearly a far greater danger as at multiple points it is stressed that the Lunar Empire is wracked constantly with internal battle and uprisings which help undermine it and weaken it. Argarth suffers from little of the same and simply unites his realm and utterly dominates his foes.
I don’t, personally, see evidence for that. Again, the Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults describe southern Peloria as being Orlanthi culturally and primarily worshiping Orlanth (or now Ernalda and Barntar).
If there was anything like a reciprocal cultural situation here, we would not see only Orlanthi culture dominate southern Peloria, we would see the Guide 1 also describe parts of Dragon Pass then as now populated by predominantly Pelorian culture. But, this is not said anywhere.
Bureaucracy is useless to a state if it cannot maintain autonomy. This is why successive states with powerful established bureaucracies, from the Iranian Plateau, Turkic conquest regimes and Chinese Dynasties, when conquered by forces, adopted the ways of these forces to suit their needs and did not simply mindlessly maintain devotion to one previous system.
None of that disputes my point though. Carmanians being Malkioni is also what I mean, it is still, yet again, foreign conquest of Pelorians.
Personally, I think then they are stupid which, yeah, checks out thus far for the Pelorians.
Because he wins all wars and battles, defeats all gods and his powers allow his subjects to become the largest cultural, religious and hegemonic force on the planet. Which, when you are a state, your only priority care is the maintenance and expansion of your own power.
But those bullies conquer you, regularly, and you spend most of your history dominated by them. That is a clear incentive to convert, and we see this in how most of western Genertela and southern Peloria simply submitted and converted to the Orlanthi way. History is awful. Conquerors win. The force which has the power to enforce it upon others triumphs. If all Yelm can offer is 'hide in a corner and hope your conquerors ignore you because you stand no chance in ever resisting them' then that way is doomed to destruction.
No empire lasts forever. All Empires fall to infighting. On the other hand, the Pelorians have a 1600 year experience that when Pelorians and Sky Pantheon try to make empires they get their asses kicked, when Orlanthi do it they establish, at least, centuries long empires which, even if they don’t persist, permanently convert many regions to Orlanthi culture and religion.
Again: the Lunar Empire suffers far more clearly from infighting than Argarth ever seems too and Agarth is clearly able to control his infighting whilst the Lunar Empire fails too.
This is genuinely actually very interesting, thank you for sharing it, I honestly like this kind of stuff, it was what I mean when I said I think Runequest’s dedication to detailed world building is fun. Thank you for sharing it with me.
But none of this is relevant to the problem I am discussing. The fact remains that narratively what we are presented with is just Peloria as a region of perennial losers constantly shrinking before Orlanthi cultural and religious spread and being conquered and defeated by them in all wars and never managing to achieve any actual hegemonic influence. Further exarcebated by the fact that I already know that the Lunar Empire just fails and is destroyed, yet again, by a stronger Orlanthi hegemon. An Orlanthi hegemon which also goes on to win and destroy Sheng Seleris’s Pentan empire as well.
At the end the problem for me is simple. I dislike the narrative focus on making the Orlanthi exceptional and needing them to win all conflicts. Even in the treatment of characters I dislike this. Whilst Orlanthi heroes like Argarth and Arkat just win, wipe out their Sky Pantheon equivalent, and then live in peace or dominance, the Sky Equivalents just suck. Nysalor just dies. Jar-Eel dies and messes up so many times that I think she's probably the most laughable character in the entire Hero Wars. She's meant to be the big heroine of the Lunar Empire? The lady who constantly gets her ass handed to her in like five different battles and is literally now in that annoying old trop of the villain girl is actually in love with the good guys? If there is one thing, I'd love to see it is just Jar-Eel vanish, a supremely insufferable character who just exists as a personification of Peloria's eternal patheticness vis-a-vis Orlanthi.
I think it is just as Rodney says. This is the result of the fact that only Orlanthi matter as they are the player characters, and it is reasonable with limited resources to focus on this. Reasonable, for sure, but then also just definitely not to my personal tastes. I think, in the end, that is just how it is. Peloria is, consciously, within the narrative just the comedic loser villain for the Orlanthi to beat. This requires the Orlanthi, however, to ALWAYS beat them. Thus, we see repeated over and over the same exact story: a threat arises from Peloria, Orlanthi beat it. All the while Peloria shrinks and shrinks and Orlanthi grows and grows. It is, to me, sad, depressing and uninteresting to depict so monotonous and predictable a scenario.
But, ultimately, it is about taste. Or, at least, that is what I personally think.
I'd certainly be happy to discuss it more if you'd like. Thanks!