Heltver

Yes, fair enough, although with my limited knowledge of Egyptian history my impression is that they were expansionist in this way for a few hundred out of thousands of years. I think of them as a fairly insular culture for the bulk of their existence, which makes me think of sun worshipping Dara Happa. I could be wrong, but couldn't you think of the Lunar Empire as kind of like the New Kingdom, when the solar culture decided to finally start kicking butt beyond their borders? I do get where you're coming from, though, and Solars as punching bags does kind of seem to permeate the setting and it rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it, except for the overall sense that they are doomed to continuously lose (if they are the bad guys, they should be badass and seem unbeatable). I thought there were some decent counterpoints to that in this thread, I just think that the Sartar and Orlanthi centric viewpoint of a lot of the material should be countered with more of a sense of them being more seriously threatened instead of always and repeatedly the victor (I don't think they actually are this, it's just that the presumed outcome of the Hero Wars makes it feel that way) I get if it isn't for you, but there is so much richness and originality in the setting I kind of hope you'll stick with it and figure out how to make it yours. If you do have interest I really recommend Harald Smith's Edge of Empire Imther Campaign on Drive Thru RPG. I get the impression Harald had a similar complaints to you 40 years ago (Solars vs Orlanthi) and he developed his campaign to work through that.

I sympathize with the OPs point, and I appreciate the overall discussion and counterpoints. Back in the 80’s when there was much less info available, the Orlanthi felt like clear underdogs and the the Lunar Empire was a fascinating and ascendant anatagonist. If your starting point is after the Dragonrise and you have access to KOS and the Guide, it can look very different, and it makes it harder to cheer for the Orlanthi when you know they are going to win. I understand why KOS had to be written and the game setting updated, but c. 1612 seems like a better campaign setting to me, and even more so without the foreknowledge of Lunar defeat. If it feels like the Orlanthi are on their last legs and facing complete defeat or extermination, the stakes are higher than if they have just turned the tide and are going to win and win and win (granted it’s more complicated than that, and granted people have started their campaigns earlier and played through the great winter, for example. But the vibe is that the Lunars are going to be a bit of a punching bag when you start in 1625) Having said that I absolutely love the new edition, and the huge amount of material available in the Guide. The fact that some of the information is going to overdetermine the future or force you to Vary your Glorantha more from the official timeline if you don’t like it is inevitable. I don’t necessarily feel so sad for the Pelorians - I think of them more like Egypt - not a massively expansionist empire, but an incredibly enduring one, and that is awe inspiring in a different way. It’s the heroes and super heroes that rub me a bit the wrong way. They are super interesting and iconic figures, but to me Argrath and especially Harrek seem to be missing tragic flaws. They are not just inevitable but no one can stand up to them. Yes Argrath faces setbacks but he is ultimately unstoppable unlike say Alexander the Great or Achilies. And it seems like absolutely nothing can stand up to Harrek and I wonder why he isn’t just ruler of the world (I’m not clear on when or if his end comes - if I knew what ultimately caused his end and their was something dramatic or noble about it this would change my perception. But as it is he feels undefeated since age 11 or something). Kallyr and even Jar-Eel seem more human to me and therefore a bit more interesting and sympathetic (yes, Jar-Eel is the most godlike, but the fact that she forfeits a battle because she is horny is a very interesting flaw, and the fact that she is killed by the unstoppable Harrek makes her more flawed or maybe just more sympathetic than the two victors. I also wish that there was a triumphant feminine hero instead of them always losing to boys. Having said that, I do like that Argrath and Harrek are not portrayed as “good” and that there is room to portray them as powerful villains, and that there is room for a multitude of viewpoints is why Glorantha so compelling to me. The history is definitely rich and complex enough that I do think the Pelorians can justifiably be proud of a glorious legacy even if their culture hasn’t spread as much (isn’t as diffuse?) as the Orlanthi Culture.