freddyboomboom

Belay my last! I thought of a couple of things... On the Shotgun side of the house: Clarify whether "automatic shotgun" is semi-automatic or fully automatic. I would prefer it to be semi-automatic. Clarify whether "sporting shotgun" is semi-automatic, or pump action. Or both kinds, see below. Clarify that on the double barreled shotgun, the stats are for firing a single barrel at a time, and firing both barrels simultaneously would (1.5x STR/DEX requirement or 2.0x STR/DEX requirement) and double the damage. I like the doubling of the STR/DEX requirement, personally. Sporting shotguns normally have much longer barrels than "defense/riot" shotguns, which have shorter barrels, 24" or longer as opposed to 16" to 18" barrels. Which means that sporting type shotguns (both semiauto and pump) have longer ranges at which they are accurate. So I would suggest adding a class called "riot shotgun" with slightly reduced range values, or slightly extending the range values for the semiauto and pump shotgun ranges. This could wait for an errata page. If you think it would need playtesting and you are reluctant to change values, then I think just the first three clarifications is the important thing. Thank you for your time, and for your consideration.

Ahoy Jason! It's been pointed out to me by both Atgxtg and SDLeary that my understanding of the weapons table and especially the rules for firearms is lacking a great deal. Many thanks to them both! So I would say that I would not change anything at this time. If there are changes to be made, then they could come out as an optional errata sheet, downloadable from the website. I'm really going to have to pry a certain book from someone's hands to read up on it. Because otherwise, it'll just be us going around and around with everyone telling me "that's not how it works, dumba**! THIS is how it really works!" To be fair, I'm adding the "dumba**" comment to myself, everyone has been pretty polite with me, and I don't recall anyone saying anything like that to me. Yar!

I agree that the muzzle brake and using from a bipod reduces greatly the effect of firing the Barret, but lumping the recoil of an M-16 and FN-FAL together leads me to believe that you're personally unfamiliar with handling and firing the M-16 and FN-FAL. Since I have the civilian versions of both, I can tell you that they are a world apart in terms of weight and recoil (as well as muzzle flash and noise). My eight year old nephew that loves shooting my civilian M-16 (AR-15) would agree, since he doesn't even try to pick up my FN-FAL. The muzzle brake on the Barret is there primarily to reduce muzzle flash, actually... Actually, the pistols are lots more mild than the 12 gauge shotgun. And I would hesitate to fire a fully automatic shotgun. If that's the case, then I'm ok with the range values. But the GM wasn't able to articulate that, so we'll probably have to research what it says. Well, from my knowledge, usually sniper rifles are shooting .308/7.62mmx55, there aren't that many that shoot even .300 Win Mag. I'd be very interested to know which military or police force use sniper rifles that are chambered in .338 Win Mag. I'm familiar with "volley fire", but my point was the "short" range of the SMLE was considered to be 200 yards. Which is just a little bit longer than what we're now considering as "short" range for bolt action rifles in BRP (110 yards). FYI: 200 yards is the "short" range setting on my WWII era Mauser bolt action rifle, as well. I don't have a Jane's, but I'm familiar with folks saying the effective range of the M-16 is over 1000 yards because an accurized one can hit paper targets out that far in the hands of a well trained and practiced shooter, but it probably wouldn't penetrate the Sunday newspaper (a little tongue in cheek, but probably not much). Actually when Googling for info for some of these points I saw a US Army website that said the max range of the M-16 is 3,600 meters. Agreed, but I was just given the table, with no explanation if the range was "base range" or "maximum range". Last year I went to a 2 day intro to marksmanship class that had us shooting at 200 yards on the second day. With "sporting" and "bolt action" and "semi-automatic" rifles. I'll gladly debate this. The musket ball is traveling a lot slower, and is bigger. Much more likely to stay in the body, rather than travel through as the much faster traveling M-16 round (.22 on steroids). But aside from leaving a larger hole through which to leak bodily fluids, the musket also frequently brought with it pieces of the uniform of the unfortunate soul to get hit. Frequently, due to the relatively primitive method of surgery and sanitation, some of these would remain in the wound, causing infection and often leading to the person's death. Far more soldiers died off the battlefield, than on, during the War of Northern Aggression (aka US Civil War for those who've never lived in the Former Confederate States of America). But the much faster moving M-16 round will generate more hydrostatic static shock, producing a much larger temporary wound channel and possibly a larger permanent wound channel, depending on which of several different rounds used (M193, M197, M855, M862, M995, etc). And the twist rate of the barrel rifling in the various versions of the M-16 versus which round used, etc. But I'm willing to generalize and say we're going to average it out, or the assault rifle isn't an M-16, but it's a G3 or FN-FAL or M-14 instead. More on this below. I should have put a smiley behind this. I am usually pretty sarcastic, and my sense of humor is pretty dry. I sincerely apologize for bruising your sensibilities, it wasn't meant to offend anyone. I'm sorry. Actually a couple of folks, or one person a couple of times, indicated something along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing from memory and I mean no disrespect) "if they're not willing to buy the rulebook, and know it fully, then they probably need me to help them figure out what to do as well as me telling them how to do it. Not worth my time to play with those kind of people." Saying this as me, myself, and I, I can see where those folks that believe that way (or similarly) are coming from, and I have no problem whatsoever with their opinion. It wasn't meant as a "pointing fingers" or "blaming" anyone, it was just an attempt to explain to the individual(s) why I am not, personally, very interested in buying the rulebook. Several years ago I bought a rulebook for Runequest, and I've gotten to play exactly one time. I invested a ton of money and time in buying and studying GURPS books, and I've never played it even a single time. Same with Traveller the New Era. That doesn't really matter, though, in regards to this discussion. Well... Uhh... When a part of a game is using firearms based on real life firearms, and their relative statistics/usability/"lethality"/etc, and the way they are presented doesn't seem to make sense to me, from my experience, then I'm going to question the way they are presented. You are the first person to indicate to me that the "range" listed for the firearms is "base or short range" and that there is a "medium range" that is double that, and a "max effective range" double the "medium range". I'm ok with that idea, and I believe that invalidates my main concern. Another main concern I have is that the STR doesn't seem to match what I believe it should be. My previously mentioned eight year old nephew loves to shoot my Browning High Power pistol (9mm Parabellum), which I figure should be a medium pistol requiring a STR of 7. He also loves to shoot my AR-15, which I would classify as an assault rifle, requiring a STR of 10. But he wouldn't dare try to shoot (nor would he be able to aim very well) my 12 gauge pump shotgun (sporting shotgun??) that BRP says he needs the same STR as for a medium pistol or my FN-FAL (assault rifle) that BRP is apparently saying is exactly the same as the AR-15. What I'm trying to point out here, is that I don't believe the STR requirements for using firearms don't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me, the way it was presented to me. If an average human has a STR of 10, then OK, but being told that my CoC character (former US Army infantry soldier, freshly back from the trenches of WWI) that has a STR of 10 is no longer able to even lift his 12 gauge pump action shotgun, but a kid with a STR of 5 can carry around and shoot a Barret Light .50. That's stretching my ability to suspend my disbelief... Anyone who has held an AR-15 (M-16) and an FN-FAL side by side (or held their cartridges side by side) would be able to tell you the FN-FAL is MUCH heavier than the AR-15. Generalizing to assault rifle and dropping the distinction of there being both an AR-15 (M-16) and an FN-FAL is actually a benefit in this case, and I think suits the idea of "Basic Role Playing" much better. If you can point out to me in the rules, page or chapter, where this stuff is actually explained, then during my next opportunity, I'll go over to Zane's house and read up on it. I'm not trying to argue, I'm not trying to poop on the rules, I'm just trying to understand. Thank you for your time and patience. Edited to add: If you're in the Portland Oregon area, I'd be happy to provide you an opportunity to fire the firearms discussed, that I actually own. I don't own a .44 Magnum any more, but I'm sure I can borrow one.

Heh... Being Zane's resident Gun Fondler, finding this by doing a Google search is kind of funny to me. I forgot who mentioned it, but someone said something about the Barrett Light .50 having a bipod, so it's not unreasonable for someone with a STR 5 being able to fire it. I agree, but since I have a Harris bipod for my personally owned AR-15, doesn't that mean that my game character would only need a STR 5 for it as well, instead of the 10 that the BRP rules say? And since it says that you only need a STR 5 to be able to have a Barret Light .50 (12.9 kg empty according to Welcome to -= Modern Firearms & Ammunition =- site) why does it take twice the STR to have an Assault Rifle (AR15/M-16 2.89 kg empty, 3.6 kg with 30 round magazine, AK-47 4.3 kg empty)? The assault rifle is 1/4 the weight, but I need twice the STR to carry/use it... I don't mind abstracting out the damage, and etc. for the "basic" game. But I just want a little consistency and intelligence. STR 11 required for an "automatic" shotgun (I'm guessing they mean semi-automatic because fully automatic shotguns are pretty rare) but a double barreled shotgun requires a STR of 9. However, having shot both kinds, the semi-automatic has a much less recoil impulse due to the fact of the bolt and the recoil spring absorb a lot of the recoil energy. The double barrel shotgun doesn't have anything to absorb any recoil energy. Except your shoulder. And a heavy pistol (M1911 sized or Desert Eagle sized?) requires an 11 STR... I'm guessing bigger than a Desert Eagle, since you need less strength for a double barreled shotgun. And what exactly is the difference between a "sporting" shotgun and the other types? Or is that what they are calling a pump shotgun? And the maximum effective range for a shotgun is 50 yards? Ok, for the purposes of the game I'll go for it. What's the difference between a "sporting" rifle and a bolt action rifle? Most sporting rifles in the real world ARE bolt action rifles. And most sniper rifles are simply accurized sporting bolt action rifles. And why does it have a range of 80 yards, where a bolt action rifle has a range of 110 yards? My Lee Enfield #1 Mk III (bolt action) that was made in 1916 has the shortest range setting on it's iron sights as being 200 yards. Max range setting is 2000 yards... An assault rifle is good for 90 yards, yet the Marine Corps trains EVERYONE to hit a man sized target at 300 yards with the M-16 aka poodleshooter... That does more damage than the sporting rifle used in the next example. A smoothbore musket does 1d10+4 damage (5-14 points), whereas a sporting rifle does 2d6 (2-12 points). What kind of sporting rifle is that, exactly? These are some of the examples of where I believe that the BRP firearms table is seriously fscked. I don't require the accuracy of some other games systems, I just want it to make a certain amount of sense. I guess that's a bit much to ask, eh? Thank you all for your time. PS: I'd like to mention that even though this game has been going on for a while, we've had a couple of times where two consecutive game sessions were almost a year apart. We don't get together very often. I'm not interested in buying a rulebook for a game I play only a few times a year, with just one group of folks. I need that money to help pay for my new pistol tomorrow, and for ammo...