Garrik

A big thanks to everyone who replied to my inquiries!

My other Fronelan problem is the lack of tundra & taiga south of Valind's Glacier. On the maps, we see the Rathorela forest reaching right next to the glacier, and that forest has deciduous trees (not birch) in its southern parts, no more than two hundred kilometres south of the glacier. In general the northern Fronelan forests are pine forests.

GtG 167 (Genertela/Fronela): "In the north are pine forests -- --."
GtG 229 (Northern Fronela): "Northern Fronela is a land of rolling hills and wide valleys, usually dotted with small forests of evergreen trees."
GtG 231 (Rathorela): "The area is virgin sub-boreal forest -- -- primarily pine, larch, spruce, and firs, with some scattered temperate deciduous trees such as maple, elm, and oak. The southern reaches of the forest have the most deciduous trees, while the northern is almost entirely evergreen."

Earlier, in another thread on this forum, Joerg discussed the population density of the north Fronelan Hsunchen people. Assuming they are mostly in human form, the population density, fitted in the hexes shown in the modern maps, is definitely not boreal neolithic hunter-gatherer. It's at least ten times denser, and considering the lack of rivers and lakes for good fishing, and the lack of sea for seal hunting, it could be a hundred times denser.

So what I think is that the glacier is entirely and totally too close, and the Uncolings have been crammed into an entirely too small a habitat. Just run a comparison with the vegetation in the Ice Age North America and Europe. (Easy google searches, so I'm not going to attach any maps.)

This got me looking back, beyond 1988 and the Genertela book.

RQ2 6 (1978/79/80, so I have the third print?) had this map (1st attachment) of Outer Glorantha. There was no specific Valind's Glacier, just Altinela and the Winter Wastes of Valind, both of them beyond the White Sea. Looks like the boreal forests of Fronela, some 40 years ago, were located some thousand kilometres south of icy wastes/potential glacier. And this makes perfect sense, as far as we want to relate Gloranthan geography and climate to the real world (history).

Interestingly, there are Hykim mentioned south of the Winter Wastes of Valind - just as there are nowadays Hsunchen south of Valind's Glacier.

These days, Valind's Glacier reaches southward in the western part of Genertela, whereas Altinela and the Mountains of the Sky are located north or northeast of the White Sea (see GtG 159). Starting with the RQ2 map, it seems these two have switched places, and the Winter Wastes of Valind = Valind's Glacier has been pushed south, over the White Sea, and right next to the Fronelan forest belt. (See 2nd attachment)

Now, having created worlds myself, I know these things happen. The creator gets ideas, maybe others get ideas, these get incorporated, things change. But I think the map 40 years ago makes much more sense in relation to the climate & open land in northern Fronela.

Interestingly, GtG 460 (The Seas, 3rd attachment) has a map where Valind's Glacier seems to be more to the north. It's a bit similar to the Snow Troll habitat (GtG 99, 4th attachment), suggesting that southern Valind's Glacier might actually be tundra. It's till Valind's REALM - a "Winter Wastes", probably tundra and some arid "spruce park" taiga (so dry steppes with very sparse woods) - but not just GLACIER.

OR ... The Gloranthan climate and vegetation is so totally defined by magic and gods (and not the warmth of the sun or the coldness of ice), that Valind's Glacier and Fronelan boreal forest can exist side to side. Perhaps there is no god of tundra or taiga, and thus there is no room for this type climate/vegetation? (Then who is Himile in the magical geopolitics?) Obviously, such a major influence of the gods is present in northern Fronela, in the region of Upriver (GtG 222) and Barleygrove (GtG 219), where it is warm enough for farming, because the people worship Lordril.

All of this said, I know how my Glorantha will vary! The Uncolings will be located mostly north of Rathorela, where they have proper tundra and northern taiga to range. And the Snow Trolls are not so much Ice Trolls as Taiga Trolls - just as they mostly are eastwards, around the White Sea. 🙂

Thank you for your attention. 😎 

22 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Maybe related, probably not, but in the Book of Heortling Mythology (pg 109) the Uncolings gave "sacrifice to monsters and demons to help them survive and fight against the Vingkotlings", during the Great Darkness. Hsunchen fans may note the similarity to Guide to Glorantha (pg 693) where in the same period the Basmoli also gave "sacrifice to monsters and demons to help them survive". Something weird in Hsunchen prehistory, there.

Sure.

Some desperate Orlanthi give offerings to Mallia to avert disease, but it doesn't make them demonized Chaos worshippers. You have to live with the consequences, and you can. Might need confession and purification.

Darkness is a source of monsters and demons, as is Valind. During the Great Darkness many people probably offered to Darkness gods and spirits. People did many things they wouldn't do today. People in Maniria and Dragon Pass paid tithes to Trolls and Ezkankekko even during Time.

Heortling mythology surely paints their enemies in darkest possible colours. Just like Lunars demonize (some of) the Storm pantheon.

I like when the Gloranthan people are not idealized or demonized, but described as living within the mythical world as best as they can. Further, when people are referring to real world regarding what reindeer eat, maybe they can refer to real world with its shades of gray. Even if Glorantha is very idealistic.

I feel the discussion is getting off the track here.

18 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

It actually has some ecological basis: reindeer are known to predate on small animals near the end of winter, when their fat reserves are at their lowest.  Reindeer hsunchen becoming manhunters as the world died is certainly a grim evolution for them, but that sort of thing was rather in vogue in the Greater Darkness, unless you happened to be friends with Ezkankekko or Pamalt.

Oh, I didn't mean it sounded strange because it wouldn't have some real world backing!

In addition to reindeer, many other herbivores can and do occasionally eat meat, mostly cadavers. Deers and hares do this. Just like many carnivores actually eat some plants. Like dogs. Bears actually get most of their nutrition from plants and fish (and ants), even if they are prime hunters. (Polar bears only eat meat because that's pretty much all they have.)

All Hsunchen are hunters. And because of this, those with herbivorous animal companions and perhaps even reindeer identity can eat meat too. They are never described as vegans even if their animal companions are herbivores. Hsunchen even eat the species of their own animal companions. This is not seen as cannibalism in the official Gloranthan texts, even if Trolls eating Trollkin surely is described as cannibalism. I'd say this goes back to the nature of the Beast/Hsunchen rune.

I don't see reindeer eating meat in real world and getting some small percentage of their nutrition/proteins from that as big deal regarding the life of Gloranthan Hsunchen and Uncolings especially. I've seen this discussion before in here. I don't get why people want to have this discussion, what's the goal of this discussion. That's what I had in mind when using the word 'strange'. 🙂

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Quite a lot of Fronela has the same kind of endless Spruce wasteland that surrounded the Alaska Highway before the lumber industry started its ongoing attempt at extinction. [...] Animal habitation depends on the type of forest. If it some more of the spruce wasteland or northern Siberian taiga, biodiversity will be fairly poor.

Had to check the natural range of Canadian spruce (white spruce, picea glauca) and the North American caribou range. Largest flocks of caribou live in the Canadian spruce range. Not sure when it becomes 'spruce wasteland', and haven't seen the Alaskan highway. I live in Finland, so I know how barren the forest bottom of a pure spruce/fir forest is. But it's rare to have a pure, continuous forest like that.

Greg's vision should be appreciated, but it can still be a local vision. GtG 230-232 says Winterwood is "conifer forest", Courtwood is "firs and pine", Tastolar is "thinly-forested", and Rathorela is "virgin boreal forest - primarily pine, larch, spruce and firs, with some scattered temperate deciduous trees such as maple, elm, and oak". Apart from Winterwood and northernmost Tastolar/Rathorela, this surely isn't 'spruce wasteland'. Neither is most of northern Canada.
 

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During the Ice Age and post-Ice Age period of the Gods War, the reindeer people east of the Oslir had a pretty gruesome notoriety, hunting other humans for food (if not for themselves, then for their herds -- --.

Where is this said?

Looking at the GtG 691 map of Late Storm Age (Lesser Darkness), when Valind's Glacier reached furthest south, it covered all Fronela up to the Rockwood mountains. East of Oslir was ice, Trolls and Hollri. The forefathers of the Uncolings must have lived elsewhere. Later, when the ice receded, there were reindeer herders living in the upper Oslir Demonland, but they are not described as cannibals, just miserable (GtG 695).

I can easily see how people would become cannibals when everything freezes over and the world is seemingly coming to an end. To ascribe cannibalism and manhunting specifically to the Uncolings/reindeer people sounds strange.

13 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Why? What did it offer a people who abjure civilisation and agriculture and who survive by hunting and foraging? What was in it for the elves?

First of all, the WBE serves as a backround force in Greg's earliest story about Snodal's loss against Black Hralf the Weasel, and his resulting adventures. I don't think that Greg was thinking of a larger, ecological or political reason, for the WBE and its attack on Loskalm. They are the baddies of that story.

Secondly, Winterwood was not part of the White Bear Empire. So apparently the elves of the Great Tree were NOT active in this pursuit. Are elves mentioned in the WBE and in the resulting war at all?

A couple of retconning explanation musters pop into my mind:

1) Planting the region with seeds? Bringing back the forest and expanding the habitual ranges of the different Hsunchen peoples?

Counter-argument: Are Aldryami with the WBE? Also, this doesn't explain the invasion specifically of Loskalm. Although perhaps only the Loskalmi recorded this event as special, because the tribal kingdoms south of Janube were probably much more used to Rathori raids. So the concentration of the attack on Loskalm might merely be a bias of the remaining written sources.

2) Some sort of pressure from Valind's Glacier? Trolls or cold? Something nobody in Loskalm or south of Janube knows about, but which forced the Hsunchen to move in concert? A domino effet.

This would make the Hsunchen (and even the Aldryami) an unwilling force, a natural phenomenon grounded in necessity instead of a political agenda bent on conquest. Loskalm being rich could mean there is more to eat there, fields and cattle. In this explanation, WBE would not be a real empire, but a huge movement that is described as an attacking empire by the Loskalmi.

Counter-argument: Ecological matters alone don't tend to be a Gloranthan answer to things. If there was an impending force behind the WBE, it probably would be mythicla, and as such exposed and known to the major powers in Fronela, and perhaps elsewhere too.

Here, it could be that the annual Kalikos-expedition had caused a change in the northern weather patterns by this time. The Kalikos expeditions are a Lunar central government organization, so didn't start before the 13th century. GtG 650 notes that the Kalikos star pattern has changed vividly some three centuries ago, so starting around the early 14th century. Perhaps the artificial warming of northern Peloria has distorted the northern weather, bringing harsher winters in Fronela in the early 15th century?

Excellent point, Brian!

Food for thought:

Hsunchen potential for cooperation
GtG 19: "The Hsunchen languages [...] are not mutually intelligible." GtG 230 "The God of the Silver Feet aided these diverse peoples to communicate with each other and coordinate." So the Hsunchen of the Greatwood/Greenwood/White Bear Empire are not like some Theyalan Orlanthi who share linguistic concepts and central traditions. The Hsunchen urgently need divine/spiritual mediators for building multi-peoples alliances.

Hence it's also understandable why the eastern Greenwood practically covers the Rathori only. As a single and numerous people they can operate together, ie. have a "big power", or at least a regional "political body". But without an earnest effort in communication, they cannot easily include others. Since the Rathori, as Bear People, are companions to predators who enjoy solitude, whereas the second most populous Uncolings, the Reindeer People, are companions to animals of prey who mostly live in flocks (small or large), I can imagine there are huge challenges in creating mutual concepts and agendas to bring them together. (What Brian put into words so vividly above.)

Although the White Bear Empire is depicted as covering the whole northern Fronela, including Tastolar, it might still be a Rathori realm, and the Uncolings didn't participate in the war.

Characteristics of the notable people
Why was Black Hralf the Weasel so focused on chasing Snodal, and why did he later style himself Son of the Devil (GtG 200)? What does 'Devil' mean to a Fronelan Hsunchen? Did Hralf name himself just in opposition to Snodal/Loskalm, or does he boast about his connection to Darkness or Chaos? Are there Weasel People in Fronela, is the cognomen 'Weasel' a reference to the companion animal or to the personality of Hralf? Why would a member of some marginal Weasel People be leading an alliance of mostly Bear People? Do I sense an animal fable here, how the weasel led the bear?

Apart from Lalja Vanemuine (who came up with this direct rip-off from Finnish/Estonian folklore?), the current notable humans of northern Fronela are either Rathori or unique (Vargartyr) (GtG 232). The Rathori seem to dominate, and they especially dominate in the martial end. Then again this is no statistics, because there are just five of the notable people, and one of them is a Troll. And even the Rathori are not described as leaders aiming to or even capable of unifying their own people.

Thoughts:
These Greenwood Hsunchen seem pretty individualistic, and the Uncolings especially seem to be very spiritual. They are not empire-builders, and when they are, their agenda is hard to understand based on the sparing facts. Probably their cooperation, even in small-scale raiding, is not based on planned political long-term agendas, but personal/spiritual heroism and occasional rage against civilized incursion into their lands.

This makes mapping their sphere of influence & alliances very problematic. The expanse of the Greenwood or the White Bear Empire on the map probably isn't comparable to other realms and empires at all. It's more like the Aldryami or the Dragonewts. The Hsunchen of Glorantha could maybe better be classified as a nonhuman Elder Race instead of human major culture. (Again, this is where Brian was pointing to above.)

Thank you, metcalph!

Back to the historical maps.

Looking at the Fronelan Greenwood in the early First Age (GtG 127) and early Second Age (GtG 132), there's something very interesting going on with its eastern borders. At the time of the Second Council, the Greenwood dominated modern Carmania and Eol; then withdrew; then was partially back in modern Satrapy of Spol c. 700 ST.

I cannot quite fathom what is happening here. Is this an Aldryami expansion, a reforestation? An Aldryami-Hsunchen expansion? A Hsunchen/Rathori expansion? Or some sort of alliance, where the humans in this region allied themselves with the Greenwood Aldryami/Rathori? Is this the time when the connection of the Third Eye Blue people in modern Carmania to their origin in (north-western) Fronela was real, historical?

Further speculation on speculation: the influence of west-Fronelan metal wizards (TEB) in western Pelanda/Spol might have paved the way, to some degree, for Syranthir & his wizard-knights to later conquer & found Carmania.

Found nothing written of this eastern Greenwood expansion in the relevant parts of GtG. It is purely a map thing.

I'm beginning to feel that the vast expanse of Greenwood should be treated as multi-faceted and subtle player in the bigger mythopolitical history of all the lands between the Ygg Isles to Spol. A kind of 'greater Fronelan player', up until the Second Age. Some sort of a chameleon or multipart conglomeration, quite unlike other Aldryami forests. Perhaps the eastern and western reaches do not know what the other is doing? Or perhaps the Winterwood Aldryami nucleus has an extremely long reach and influence, at least in the First and Second Age, before the splitting of the forest.

Or perhaps the Greenwood simply is a way for Greg/MoonDesign to lump together 'things from the north-east' which are undeveloped in the Gloranthan mythos and history.

22 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I would suggest that this is a distorted recollection of a likely role of the Third Eye Blue as itinerant sorcerer-smithss among the hsunchen tribes of the Eleven Beasts Alliance, before and during the Gbaji Wars.

This would also echo with the (perhaps romanticized) idea that early smiths were perceived as magicians, and lived somewhat removed from others, moving around. So not so much selling their ready-made product but instead visiting a place, building a small-scale production site, smithing and fixing things, and then moving on. This is echoed in some Norse sagas and Finnish oral poetry, and fits the archaeological findings too. For communities without smiths of their own, but perhaps still dependent on metal tools, smithing is a peculiar skill.

I think this theory was and still is widespread enough that it might have influenced Glorantha. And it does have great story potential!

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think that is largely immaterial (or, perhaps should say not to read too much into the coloration)

.  Remember at the Dawn, only the green elves were "alive" - the brown and yellow elves had not yet reawoken.  I think they just used one color for all the elf woods at that point.  The subsequent maps use lighter green for the woodlands that would be predominantly green elf forests.  The darker green for mixed elf forests (and a yellower green for the yellow elf jungle in Teshnos).

GtG 69 shows the Aldryami forests with the colour codes you mention. There, Erontree and Winterwood are same colour, which is not the case on the political maps after the Dawn, even if these are Green Elf forests. And even the Winterwood isn't a solid Green Elf forest. Brown elves are mentioned too.

I agree the colour coding on the political maps might not be thoroughly controlled, but I also think the coding aims to be controlled. Changes of colour correspond to political changes, so I do think that the Greenwood colour being different from other Fronelan and Ralian Aldryami forests, but remaining the same east and west even after the split, does imply something.
 

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Based on the map on p.230, that could be referencing the Courtwood, the Deerwood, and then the core of the Winterwood.

It might, but then again GtG 67-68 is quite clear that the Greenwood they're talking about is the Dawn Age forest that encompassed the whole of Fronela, and that Winterwood and Erontree are the pieces. The scope is clearly bigger than the woods around Winterwood. I don't think the eastern Greenwood/Rathorela is counted in.

Yet all of this might be confusion in the MoonDesign end, or haphazard editing. After all we're splitting hairs and trying to read a lot out of it. 🙂
 

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My interpretation of "Syndics" is that it may be another word for "zzaburi", wizards, etc.  Quite possibly Brithini.

Yes. This sounds much more solid than my meandering speculations. Then again, based on GtG 200, nobody seems to understand, or is willing to clarify, what really happened in the Syndics Ban and why. 🙂

But to add to the actual discussion:
There is Harram Wall in northern Loskalm (GtG 206-207), built in the Second Age to guard against something coming from the north. Not against the Chaos-ridden Dilis Swamp, which is very close. So clearly at one point during the Second Age there was a threat of invasion from the north. Alternatively, it could have been an 'agressive' wall that divided the Enjoreli in order to subjugate them. Pity the wall is not better dated, as the Second Age is such a long period of time.

jajagappa, this super interesting!
 

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The interesting gap occurs between 700 and 900 S.T.  We suddenly go from a continuous woodland to a wide gap between the Winterwood and the Greatwood.

Only if we think that the light green colour denotes continuous woodland. Note the first First Age map shows Greenwood with dark green colour, but it changes into light green from Second Council onwards.

We have similar colour change in the Elder Wilds, where the dark green Aldryami forests at the Dawn give way to the Second Council tan (forest burned, Votanki dominance); then a lighter green, when the humans and Aldryami were allied; and are then divided into small dark green Aldryami forests, Votanki and occasional Trolls.

I think these changing colours are telling a story. Then again Winterwood is an Aldryami forest even if it's coloured lighter green. Or could THAT tell us something too? After all the Aldryami/Fronela entry (GtG 67-68) for Winterwood tells that it's primarily inhabited by green elves, and then notes that the Maidstone Mountains are inhabited by green and brown elves, and Maidstone Archers. So the Winterwood is not completely an Aldryami forest, but includes the Maidstone Mountains and the Archers. A reason for a different colour to other Aldryami forests?
 

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Note GtG p.231 re: Rathorela's forest: "though not dominated by elves, many exiles from another forest still reside here." 

Agree this is a veiled expression. But these are the Aldryami refugees from skyburned Erigia. After all, an identical quote under the Aldryami of Fronela, in the Aldryami section, continues with the notion that they have a deep hatred for the Lunar Empire and its allies because of Skyburn (GtG 68). Also, the Rathori entry clearly tells that it is the Erigia refugee Aldryami who taught the Rathori the use of longbow (GtG 233). So I wouldn't speculate about the exiles being the result of inter-Aldryami warring. They clearly aren't.

Then again if the Greenwood Aldryami are all refugees from Erigia, was the Greenwood an Aldryami forest AT ALL after the divide from Winterwood? Is Winterwood the only real Aldryami part of the First & early Second Age Greenwood? The Fronela entry in the Aldryami section (GtG 67) tells that the original Fronelan Aldryami forest is now divided into smaller pieces, but it only gives Winterwood and Erontree as real Aldryami forests.
 

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2) Variation on #1, but the war is between the Elder Races.  Trolls and/or dwarfs destroy the central forest leaving this great gap.

Found a direct reference about Trolls fighting another Elder Race in Fronela (Trollpak): '[The battle of] Nebuchaxa in Fronela wiped out the inhabitants of Oral-ta.'

This reference doesn't clarify who the enemy was and who was wiped out. Googling around showed that others have interpreted this as Trolls fighting Dwarves, and the Trolls were wiped out. This might be connected to the general waning of Troll presence in Fronela, after the Dawn age realm of Borklak. Nevertheless, it's clear that Trolls - and Dark Trolls at that, not Snow Trolls - continued to have a presence precise in this sparsely wooded region at least up to the Ban (Dark Wood).

And then there's Xemstown, which I understand was a colony - but from where did these Trolls come? Probably not over the Rockwoods, where the only pass is guarded by Dwarves? So more probably from somewhere in Fronela.


The Brithini & God Learner meddling is possible. But at least it didn't lead into annexation of the 'white spaces' in Fronela. Perhaps the long-existing 'white space' is a result of political savvy, a kind of buffer around Loskalm/Akem/Frontem?

Here is a loooong-stretched speculation: English is not my native language, but could the exact term 'Syndics Ban' somehow refer to a specific representative body of some sort of official/bureaucratic syndics in the Fronela/Janube region? A general cutting of communication between polities could have many different names, and I've always wondered why so specific a name was chosen for this curse. What syndics? Sounds so official. Somewhere I read the Malkioni have influenced the Janube region terminology a lot. So maybe this echoes some sort of continuing, low profile Loskalmi/Malkioni meddling without conquest.

EDIT: Or maybe the syndics were Lunar, and the ban was directed against Lunar influence in the Janube region. An subtle yet terrible influence that could not be fought against in any less drastic manner?

Don't know if this speculation about a word/phrase makes any sense to you guys. 🙂

Also I don't know near enough about the Third Eye Blue people. The Carmanian entry definitely seems to say that the TEB had a political body in Fronela, and they had conquered some Dwarves. Tastolar highlands seem a plausible place for this. But did they cause (even indirectly) the divide of the Greenwood? Did they come from elsewhere and found their empire here? Or are they native to the region and started as partners in a Greenwood coalition? Are the TEB an itinerant remnant people from before the Dawn?

I like the idea of entwined, long-stretched multiplayer conflict!


 

Just now, Gallowglass said:

Fronela is one of the places where Greg's old stories collide with his newer vision of Glorantha, and that makes it all the more interesting. But also kind of muddled and confusing. 

Yes. Glad you said this. Because I get the feeling that Fronela is almost like Mirkwood + Rohan + Gondor in Middle-Earth (Greenwood + Jonatela + Loskalm), cut through by Anduin/Danube. The story of Snodal could be an Arthurian otherworld trip, and Harrek is pure Conan. Of course I don't know for sure, but I feel the stuff Fronela was made of was kinda thin compared to the magnificence of Glorantha today.

I've created worlds of my own, like seriously and for decades, and I feel the pain with my original stuff. I've mostly thrown it away and started from scratch. Would Greg have done that with Fronela? I think Loskalm surely has been re-written after Snodal's adventures and the original Genertela box. The religion at least. But that wasn't an easy project. Hence we have Jamie's Loskalm too, and I'm glad that we do. I like to see the layers and different directions of creation. To see why and how others decided to create helps me to create mine. I'm not so much searching for one canonical truth, but the deep layers of ideas, the spirit of creation.

Greg was a shaman and something of a Finland-lover (thus in Glorantha we speak of reindeer instead of caribou). Could he have cooked something about Fronela in his later years? There live over a million shamanistic Hsunchen here, like a spiritual powerhouse and ecosystem straight from the time when the Spike still stood. I'm almost sure Greg has thought about Fronela, maybe visited it in his shamanistic travels. I know I would, with his scope.

Oh, this boils down to the loss of Greg.

19 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

I mean, we're just making stuff up here, I don't think there is an official explanation for any of this. It seems like Tastolar was once part of the Greenwood taiga forest, but now it's not. It also seems like there have never been any real settlements in the region, except for the Third Eye Blue People, and the ruins in Oral-Ta. So where did all that forest go? Trolls eat trees, especially hungry Snow Trolls, so if I had to come up with a story, I'd go with "prolonged Elder Race conflict, with Hsunchen caught in the crossfire." 

Making up stuff is totally fine!

My personal interest is primarily search for information and secondarily gauging fresh ideas.

Outside of Loskalm, Fronela is one of the least developed regions of Genertela, and in this sense the GtG essentially goes back to the Genertela: Crucible of the Hero Wars box. Which is about 40 years old by now. The sagas of Snodal and Harrek are older still. I was hoping that there was some extra knowledge to be gathered - possibly from people who knew Greg and had the opportunity to ask these things from him. Or have access to his archive.

Especially the Hsunchen make up a giant part of Fronela, yet the 'great powers' history' we have barely mentions them. Now that I dug out my old Genertela box, I'm actually astonished how little GtG has added to that.

Need to see if the Trollpak or the Troll Gods (Valind) have something about Fronela.

28 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

Sure, but I'm doing it anyway because it amuses me🥴. In all seriousness though, I think every game encourages a blend of play-styles, and the kind you have at your table depends a lot on you and your players as well.  

For me, Runequest is all about immersing your players in Glorantha, and exploring the parts of it that are not clearly defined in the books. So this is a "traditional" goal for my  gameplay as a GM. I actually think RQG currently does a better job of this than Heroquest did, because everything is so carefully defined and simulated (especially the magic). So even though I lean more rules-lite and narrative-driven in my preferences, Runequest makes Glorantha more real for me. 

I would say we had something of a setting-immersion goal (Trad but also some Nordic LARP thrown in) while we were playing RQ the last time, around 2005. However, at that time we also wanted to play RQ purely as a game, so our goal had even some Story Game in it. We played RQ as RQ, enjoying the RQ-ence game play and character cycle as it happens in pure RQ played by the rules. We didn't go Glorantha first, but RQ rules first, and let the game mechanics define our Glorantha. (When we didn't like it anymore, we dropped RQ, but not Glorantha.)

But this latest goal or goals of our RQ experience was definitely different from my first RQ games, which sound pretty much like Classic in this Six Cultures theory. We didn't emphasize the setting at all and our characters were not partaking in any specified story. It was just about the characters interacting in random situations through the RQ mechanic. And when the characters had depleted their resources or died, we had a stop or made new characters, and into the fray we went again. And I think RQ handled that very well.

So I guess RQ can be played in many different ways, and it can have something to give in different play cultures. However, it harbors Classic and Trad the best, and with the emphasis on and simulation of Glorantha and character development, it clearly leans towards Trad.

20 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

For the answer to that, we'd have to know more about the specifics of the end of the Northern Gbaji Wars...

Grand!

You're answering questions I wasn't ready to ask yet.

The problem of retconning from a known 'present' situation to explain that situation, jumping on the few visible shards of history we happen to have, is that it's kind of circular thinking. We have no significant or lasting Western colonisation or evangelization in Fronela (outside of the very Janube river valley) after an early push, and we have an early war which seems to have led into some kind of settlement on the matter. So we connect the two and say that the present lack of Western push is a result of a settlement reached in this early war - and it was the result from an interaction between the only three persons we know of who were active in this region at the time.

I'm a historian by profession, and I'd say we lack the sources to make sense of the matter, and make fools out of ourselves trying to spin a logical story with so little evidence.

But it's a good story, nevertheless!

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

Then I guess the question is, was Tastolar always more thinly forested, even at the Dawn? Because it clearly is on the hex maps. 

Which then begs the question why the Greenwood Aldryami might have wanted to include Tastolar in the Greenwood. Because it seems to have been an Aldryami forest at the Dawn.

And on the meta-level, do we want to pursue an inclusive or exclusive explanation. Do we want a rich and intertwined explanation where many things are true simultaneously or there is constant change? Or do we want single all-encompassing reasons and a status quo for century or two.

After all, the snapshots of Gloranthan (political) history shown in the GtG Genertela maps may not be the most informative or interesting moments of history when we zoom into regional and local level.

Yes, questions. 🙂

The linked article states:

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I want to point out that I think talking about specific games as inherently part of some culture is misleading, because games can be played in multiple different styles in line with the values of different cultures.

So is it a bit too much to try to define RQ, a game publication, along these parameters?

Then again:
 

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But, many games contain text that advocates for them to be played in a way that is in line with a particular culture, or they contain elements that express the creator's adoption of a particular culture's set of values.

And here I think it gets interesting: Have different editions of RQ tried to locate themselves differently over time?

Interesting question & splendid food for thought!

I'd echo what g33k writes about the Trolls being well-known in Sartar. Was it the Trollpak or Into the Troll Realms where there were excerpts about some encounters with the new type of Great Trolls? So it seems that the people meeting with or fighting Trolls knew perfectly well what is a normal Troll or Trollkin, and could instantly recognize a change in the pattern.

In general, it might not be so much about recognizing what a strange two-legged being is, but about how they behave. The example given by Greg is great one here! For example, even if Trolls might be well-known, they might still be thought as monsters or demons, and mostly adversaries. For someone with no experience in trading with Trolls, they would continue to be just that.

I've run several campaigns in Sartar where Trolls were met, and the early ones had the Trolls as very mysterious and frightening beings. Because the PLAYERS knew nothing about them. In the later campaigns, Trolls have become the 'close other', because the PLAYERS know them rather well. So this question has become more about how the KNOWLEDGEABLE PLAYERS like to play their CHARACTERS. And here I'd start with questions in the Clan Generator and the familial cults. If there is a Darkness connection somewhere in the clan/personal background, then Trolls are known quite well.

The same goes for Aldryami, Mostali and Dragonewts. In Sartar, people probably can tell different types of Dragonewts apart, but Aldryami and Mostali are rare, and few know anything abou them. The situation is different in other regions.

Just realized...

My Q 1 might actually help to answer the Q 2. If the Greenwood "hole" is not about a receding Aldryami forest, but about a political power vacuum, it might not be as drastic a mythical phenomenon after all.

The 400 ST map (p. 130) still has a huge Enjoreli Tribes region and Hykimi Alliance. Both are gone in the 700 ST map (p. 132), showing just white space. Some of this white space is still there, south of the Janube, on the 900 ST map, when we have the "hole" in Greenwood. This situation continues the next centuries, until the White Bear Empire unites the remaining Hsunchen north of the Janube in 1450 ST (p. 142), and Loskalm, Jonatela and the Arrolian cities have filled the southern vacuum to the brim.

....

In general, the Second Age and early Third Age have more white space on the Genertela map than the First Age. Which is funny when we remember how sparsely populated most regions were in the Dawn. Many later white space regions might have had denser populations than the First Age political entities, but they still lacked political importance.

So, the Greenwood "hole" might just indicate that modern Tastolar has been devoid of any meaningful "big power" political structure between 600 and 1400. How much this is connected to the Aldryami or the Rathori/Aldryami giving that structure in the First Age and then withdrawing, is an interesting question.

...

I'd be inclined to think that the Uncolings have been there all the time, from before the Dawn to the present. But on their own, they do not produce "big power" political organization. Possibly their 'ranger' lifestyle and the meekness of their companion animal doesn't lead into durable tribal organization that can claim and defend land.

On the other hand, they seem to lack a civilized enemy that would want to invade and conquer their range. Not Loskalm, not even the God Learners/Fontem aimed for that.

Possibly the gold found in Finho could change things.

...

Or, in a completely different vein, maybe our records about the Fronelan past simply do not mention anything here, even if there have been an Uncoling Tribal Chiefdom, or a Third Eye Blue Hegemony, or a Troll Queendom, or a Valind Long Winter, or all of these.

Yes, speculation.

Oh, I forgot the Janube quesiton:

4. GtG and GregSez give a bit different reasoning & order for the application of Janube (the Sea/River god) in creating the Janube river.

GtG (p. 690, under Waertagi) says the Waertagi summoned the Janube river/god to surround the Sog City, so that a prophecy about the city's end would not come true.

GregSez says that Janube came earlier and drowned all the lowlands, so that only the highlands remained above water/sea level. So it's one of the mythical Rivers that invaded the lands. Only later, based on the mythical existence of a now dried-up Janube (in the Sweet Sea), the Sog Waertagi/Kachisti summoned it back to break out from the Sweet Sea and to surround the Sog City.

Not a real conflict here, because things are mythically layered, the GtG must be short here and there, and god-time and all. More an observation, not a question. 🙂

Reading the GtG, I got interested in Fronela. Three questions about the Greenwood & Janube:

1. GtG "The World of Time" historical maps, from Second Council onwards (p. 127), depict the Greenwood in lighter green than other Aldryami forests. Is this an indication that this vast region is not so much an Aldryami forest, but a distinct political unit - presumably a very loose federation of Aldryami and Hsunchen? Is the lighter green colour related to a similar political unit in the Elder Wilds around 400ST (p. 130), with Aldryami, Votanki and perhaps Trolls?

2. Between 700ST (p. 132) and 900ST (p. 134), the Greenwood gets divided in its western end, into Winterwood and a stumped Greenwood. The region between them largely corresponds to Talostar (and the Black Forest). What happens here? Couldn't find a hint in the history & Fronela texts. If this is connected to some sort of forest withdrawal/destruction, it's on the magnitude of destructions of Erigia and Rist combined. As a political/magical/ecological development, is it somehow connected to the God Learners' empire and the emergence of Frontem?

3. North-east of Fronela/Greenwood, and north of modern Erigia and Eol, there is a big patch of land before the White Sea. This land is largely forested, and where there is forest there must be animals etc. This region seems to go without name. Is it Troll land? Are there Aldryami in the forests? Do the Uncoling and/or Eol reindeer flocks range this far (there would be actual tundra, ie. real reindeer land, at the shores of the White Sea)? Anything written about it?

Related to the unnamed patch of land NE of Greenwood and E of Valind's Glacier, eastward over the gulf there used to be the Tallseed forest (Lentasia) (p. 126, 372). So Aldryami magical/political realms were present this far north. Why not on the western side of the gulf?

I have the GtG, and have read some Greg Sez & Daliath articles of old. There's a lot I don't have, notably the Glorantha: the Second Age Fronela-book.

Also the northern Fronelan material being this thin, I'd be interested to hear who has written/mapped it? All coming from Greg, or are there others who have contributed to this region?

I ignore everything post-Issaries, and most things post-1615. Although different ideas are always good.

LOL,

The traditional Finnish Joulupukki is a Krampus-like vagabond who requires beer and food or else he starts misbehaving. That should be great for Eurmal. The gift-giving Santa Claus is not Finnish at all, although nowadays he too is called Joulupukki over here.

DIdn't read the supplement, just wanted to note the above. 🙂

I remember trying out a social metagaming system like this somewhere in the early 90's. It didn't add anything to our gaming, and we soon dropped it. Probably comes down to different gaming cultures.

I think a better method to confront some of the problems you mention (e.g. sitting back and letting the GM entertain) is talking about roleplaying, asking what the players want from the game, and empowering them to be active within your game. The GM shouldn't be the entertainer who prepares everything and runs everything. Gets pretty taxing for the GM too, especially if the players don't enjoy it much. IMHO.

Why on earth wouldn't someone appear on a gaming night, if you've agreed to meet & play? Would she appear for a bisquit/point, even if she didn't much fancy the play??? Sounds pretty cheap to me.

It's important to handle ivory (tooth bone) apart from antler, hoof and any bones inside the animal. All bones can be carved, but they are also plentiful. Ivory is a different matter, and thus a valued trade good on the interregional market. My question is specifically about ivory.

Hello,

I'm reading about the Gloranthan trade routes and main trade goods in the GTG.

It seems all interregionally traded ivory comes from hot climes: Fonrit, Maslo, Teshnos. So it is likely elephant tusks. Or are there other big tusker animals in those climes?

On our Earth, walrus tusks were an important source of ivory in Europe and northern Eurasia. There was lively ivory trade at least in the Viking period. It looks like the two water bodies around Valind's Glacier should be excellent habitat for walrus. Now I wonder 1) if there are walruses in Glorantha, 2) if they are hunted for ivory, and 3) if walrus ivory is plentiful & valued enough that it should have an impact in interregional trade?

A related pondering: any sufficiently large tusk is valuable as ivory. There are huge boars (tuskers) in Glorantha, and at least looking at the art, several animal species that do not have tusks on Earth may do so in Glorantha (saw a picture of a tusked tortoise). How many alternate sources to elephant ivory do Gloranthans have?

(Save the elephants!)