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1 hour ago, Kloster said:

If I remember correctly, the element is needed to Summon the elemental, but once binded into an enchantment, the necessary element is brought within. When called outside, the elemental does not need extra because it has already been summoned. This is at least how we played it.

I read it differently: when it says the SIZ of the elemental doesn't add to the mass of the binding item, I took that to mean that the element still had to be present. It also conveniently sidesteps the conundrum Pentallion has posed, which is, IMO, a Good Thing. But it really isn't very clear.

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does an Ignite spell (without suitable fuel) suffice? Would a multi-spelled barrage of Ignites suffice?

IMG, no. And no. The Summon spells require "...at least some reasonable amount of that element...". Ignite a small bundle of sticks or leaves, and your Salamander can appear focused on that. A match or candle flame isn't enough.

8 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Edit: a thought. If the players figure out a potentially overpowered idea, well, there's technically nothing from stopping the GM from using it on them too... 😈

By the same token, if it's as obvious as the Salamander-spear trick would be if elementals didn't need some quantity of their element present to manifest, it'd be standard practice. There's a reason why it isn't.

Your spear shaft would have to be made of something pretty special to avoid becoming frangible charcoal in the socket of the head, and breaking off as soon as it struck anything with even small force. Firespear (another Lodrili spell) is meant to be cast on fighting weapons, is Rune Magic and could be Extended to year-long duration (followed by a short downtime before it gets recast, and the spear shaft wouldn't suffer, because the effect is 'designed' that way. Repurposing a Heat Metal as an ersatz Boon of Kargan Tor should take a similar investment in time, sacced POW and MP.

It'd need another point for the Condition on the Command Cult Spirit to cast it on the Elemental just before it's released. And the wielder would need to have the two Rune Points to power the spell, since the Matrix doesn't do that, as far as I've read, RAW. And it wouldn't work anyway IMG because the Elemental needs a volume of fire available to manifest within; the consequences of 'released-from-a-binding' Elementals not needing some of their element available to manifest in/around would be awkward and beyond the intentions of the game, I feel.

9 hours ago, Pentallion said:

...the elemental, if not given a command, then goes about doing whatever it pleases.

Which would be to clear off, sharpish, back to some more fiery place. Or just go around setting light to anything flammable. And unless some Control was cast at the time of release, it'd be a one shot per summon...

9 hours ago, Pentallion said:

But knowing these guys, this won't stop there.  What would water elementals do in an impaled person's body?  Earth elementals?  What happens if they impale with a ghost spear?  All of it seems like fun, but I'm leery of it possibly opening up an exploit they can break.  Does anyone else see a potential danger to allowing them to do this before I make it okay?  Something possibly obvious I'm not taking into consideration?

I think these worries come under the heading of the 'unintended consequences' that allowing the elemental to manifest other than in a (nominal) quantity of their element (and no, being mostly water doesn't make a human body count as water) would draw down upon your Glorantha if you permitted this.

10 hours ago, Sumath said:

Also, if my sword skill is 200% I could effectively attack before anyone else every time, with little effect on my actual chance to hit. This means that higher weapon skill level means you can be faster without much in the way of a penalty - but that should be the role of DEX improvement.

It merits some thought. Personally, I'm not sure that skill with a sword should directly translate to being faster - that should be down to DEX and SIZ. I think problems could arise from muddying the waters on that.

From personal experience, I can attest that SIZ and DEX in combat are vastly over-emphasised in all editions of RQ rules. Skill is the most important factor in who strikes (effectively, which is what an RQ attack roll purports to represent) first.

I have fought in knife-fights with a guy a foot taller than me, who played squash really well (indicating decent reflexes and coordination, i.e. DEX), and he couldn't get first hit on me, or even hit me on the way out. I did a lot of knife fighting. I'm rubbish at squash and he beat me seven ways from Sunday at that. He was new to the lines and angles of stabbidj.

It is the 'standard cost' to learn that spell, in 'Lunars' (the standard currency unit). It's mentioned, kinda in passing, on p253:

Quote

 The standard cost of each spell is listed on the Spirit Magic Spells  table (see page 257).

21 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Because Shield is cumulative with Countermagic. It's a special case.

I read that as Shield being a special exception to the "Countermagic and Protection are incompatible" rule.

18 hours ago, CBDunkerson said:

I haven't seen any reference in this thread to the fact that each 'MOV unit' requires one strike rank.

That seems to resolve a lot of the questions about how much you can mix movement with other activities.

However, it leaves at least two oddities unresolved;

1: Creatures with vastly different speeds effectively move at the same rate up to their limit. That is, a creature with a MOV of 4 (e.g. Human with Slow) and a creature with a MOV of 16 (e.g. Human with Mobility) both require 4 strike ranks to travel 4 MOV units (i.e. 12 meters if hurrying). If both were rushing to be the first to get to the magical mcguffin then a MOV 4 character 9 meters away would get there before a MOV 16 (or MOV 600) character 10 meters away.

2: Creatures with MOV higher than 12 have some amount 'left over'. That is, a MOV 16 character should be able to go 48 meters in a round, but they are limited to 3 per strike rank and there are 12 strike ranks... so it caps out at 36 meters. Are the remainder 'lost'? All happen at the end of SR 12?

3 hours ago, Thyrwyn said:

Movement happens before Strike Ranks begin; If you use less than half of  your MOV, you may do something else (Shoot, cast spells, etc...), but your SR is delayed by 1 for each 3m you actually moved, as long as you can get it done by SR 12. (p. 192 - movement of non-engaged characters). Characters which begin the round engaged, may not move that round.

Aye, the movement system, RAW, is thoroughly borked. It bears little relationship to reality (either in terms of ground covered or how movement affects what else is going on in a round) and drags the combat system further from simulation and towards abstraction than I'm comfortable with. It requires overmuch interpretation by the GM of how it's supposed to work outside the very narrow confines in which it could be considered to be 'believable'.

22 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes. "Dispelled" with a capital D refers to Dispel Magic, and possibly other magic removal effects (Dismiss, Neutralize). It means that once both spells are up, the Countermagic will go down before the Shield does.

I'd agree with that interpretation.

23 hours ago, soltakss said:

I think he means that you need, for example Countermagic 6 to stack onto Shield 2, as anything less is blown down by the Shield, giving you effectively Countermagic 6 in total.

From past discussions, in RQ2 it never worked that way. protection and Countermagic just stacked on top, so Shield 3 Protection 4 give you 6+4=10 points of Protection and 6 points of Countermagic.

I'd agree that when I played RQ2, we just let Shield stack with whichever of the other two got cast and didn't give any consideration to the countermagic effects working on each other. However, by the same token, we didn't require Heals to be boosted to get past Shield or Countermagic, either, and that's not how it's meant to be in RQG, so our interpretation of RQ2 is very much thrown into question for the purposes of the current version of the rules.

On 2/9/2019 at 1:56 PM, Joerg said:

Snce neither Spirit Screen nor Protection evaporate when another spell is incoming, the sequence of casting these spirit spells and Shield is irrelevant. Countermagic is different. If it recognizes that the new magic is a Shield, then it doesn't act up?

Not quite. If the Shield is cast first, and the Spirit Screen or Protection are not sufficient to beat the Countermagic element of the Shield, they'll fizzle. Since neither Spirit Screen nor Protection has any Countermagic effect, you can cast as small a Shield as you like on top of them; it's the other way around when I'd argue you have to take care.

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't understand. What do you mean by "a high enough level"

A high enough level to 'stick' on the previously-Shielded target.

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

...and what other mechanics?

The standard interaction of Countermagic/Shield and other spells.

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Shield is stackable on top of Countermagic, and always has been. This is explicitly stated in RQ3 and RQG.

"Cumulative" is what it says. You may be correct in your interpretation. In your Glorantha, you pretty much certainly are. However, the language of this version supports an interpretation that means Countermagic is only cumulative if it is cast at a high enough level. I prefer that interpretation, as it is more consistent with other mechanics.

25 minutes ago, RustK said:

Yeap, that's a way of seeing it. 

I would rather say spirits with higher spells tend to be stronger. Stronger spirits means more danger to tame. More danger rises prices or even leads to unavailable product.

Anyway, the effect is the same 😊

My current reading of the way Spirits in RQG happen (based on Bestiary and Core), I don't think the strength of the spirit has much to do with whether they have a 'focused' knowledge of (one big) spell or not. Bestiary seems to have most Spirits having a CHA-full of spells. I don't think Spirits get to choose their spells much, cos why would they ever pick anything other than Spirit Screen and Dispel Magic (and a few others); it's not like they have any actual use for Bladesharp or Repair... having such spells just makes them targets for getting mugged in Spirit Combat and potentially bound.

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

A limit that is based on a relevant characteristic is not arbitrary. It's pretty much the definition of "not arbitrary".

It remains arbitrary because there's no particular reason for it to exist; the levels at which it is imposed are figures plucked out of thin air. Why pick 3 over 2 or 4 or 5 as a divisor? To have a max that's consistent with RQ2, 4 is probably a closer fit: the best Humans will be able to learn [variable-spell]-4. Of course, that would be basing a selection on an previously arbitrarily-set criterion.

There are better ways of framing 'restrictions'.

9 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Why would you assume they are rare? 

Simple probability, really. I assume in my Glorantha that Spirits have knowledge of various spells, and the higher the magnitude of the spell, the less likely it is for a spirit to know it. Same as people, really. [variablespell]-2 is going to be fairly common, if it's a useful variable spell. The same spell at 10 isn't. It's probably some Maxwell-Boltzman shape on the frequency curve, with the peak at 3-4.

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think there are problems with casting protective spells on items. I remember once someone wanted to cast Protection on the cloth canopy of their wagon, to protect the whole party against arrows.

I agree with Runeblogger, that is a pretty cool idea. Since a giant could cast Protection on themselves for a normal MP cost, the canopy's surface area isn't an impediment... The characters would effectively be able to take advantage of some semi-hard mobile cover. The 'classic' ends of the wagon would be open, the driver would have to be a bit exposed, and the canopy could still end up being shredded by melee attacks, unless that was some mondo Protection...

3 hours ago, Carew said:

In Mongoose Runequest 2 and Legend, common magic is capped at INT divided by 3, so if your INT15 the maximum Bladesharp you can get is Bladesharp 5. This avoided arbitrary limits...

It's still an arbitrary limit. It just varies. RPGs are basically collections of arbitrary limits: CHA for total memorisable Spirit Magic; CHA for Rune Point Cap, are two contextually relevant ones. Q: "Why isn't the Spirit Magic limit 2xCHA?"

A: "Because."

It's arbitrary.

I see zero need for arbitrary limits in this matter of Spirit Magic maximum variable spell. I'm perfectly happy with setting story-based ones that can be overcome: the overcoming creates story, and taking advantage of the opportunity means an opportunity cost in other aspects of opportunity.

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

He can not perceive the outside world without magic, but can use his powers, including casting spell. For me, he simply needs to cast a spell like second sight to perceive the outside world, and he can cast his other spells either on somebody in contact with the binding or on target perceived through second sight.

For me, the casting of Second Sight would not be enough to permit perception outside the Binding. It is not the lack of 'sense organs' but the barrier of the Binding, to my mind, which prevents perception. I agree that someone in contact with the binding can have the spell cast on them, but only someone, not something. To have a spirit cast a spell, most of the time, they must be released from the Binding (whether constrained by a Command/Control/Dominate or not).

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

A control spell, whether spirit, runic or sorcerous, is required to be able to give several orders (including a last one to go back to the binding), including changing targets.

And it is worth stressing, I think, in this context, that any such controlling spell cast on an entity in a Binding will work automatically without the POW v POW roll or need to reduce to 0MP or SpellSTR vs POW roll.

IMG, Shield protects you, or whatever you cast it on. Having it protect your weapon and or shield for all those extra (parrying) AP as well as your own tender bodily particles would be too much of a freebie, IMO. And if the sword isn't protected by the AP, it's not protected by the Countermagic strength either. You can cast it on your weapon and/or shield, but that's extra Rune Points, and you might've preferred to stack those on yourself.

Still, Shield can't distinguish between friendly and unfriendly spells, so it would protect the target from buffs such as Strength, Charisma or Catseye, as well as, importantly, Healing spells. If you want to stack Protection, you'd better cast that first, or boost it so it can beat the Countermagic strength of your Shield, and Countermagic pretty much has to be cast second if you're looking to stack that with Shield, and at high enough magnitude or with boosting MP to get past the Shield spell's Countermagic element; if you try and cast Shield on yourself after  Countermagic, either the Shield doesn't work, or the Countermagic is blown down, or, worst of all, both of these things occur.

But your mount and equipment need protecting separately for all of these spells.

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but how many bound sprirts know Bladesharp 10?

Quite. They'd be rare, which is why not every Shaman knows where to find a spirit with such a high mag single spell for you to attempt to beat in spirit combat.

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Maybe, but wouldn't the spirit need high enough stats to hold the spell? 

Of course. Absolutely. So the spirit you transfer your Bladesharp 10 to will need CHA 10, but that's not too much of a stretch. The eventual limit will be that you can have 6 or 7 spirits bound (as your CHA starts to get close to hu-Max), so you can theoretically have about 7 or 8 'big' Spirit Magic spells available. 

If I'm (as is entirely likely) wrong about being able to transfer knowledge of spells, there's a further consequence: since you have to actually have the spirit bound in order to have access to its spell, knowledge of the Big Spell will be further restricted, since the Spirit won't be available for the Shaman that found it for you to summon in order for someone else to learn the spell off it.

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

So it sounds like the campaign is already getting very high powered if the players have the capability to pull that off. Frankly I don't see Bladesharp 10 being much better than say, Bladesharp 5 and Protection 5. I'd be more concerned about something like Multimissle 10, but even then it's probably overkill.

Aye. IMG, the Big Spirit Spell would be 'suboptimal', and largely unavailable anyway until the party's fairly well-established at Runemaster level, and would need to be actively sought out.

I'd say Bladesharp 10 is quite a bit better than Bladesharp 5, as damage is a threshold game, and while you might expect a couple of points of the 5 to actually end up 'cleaving flesh', you'd expect against the same target that 7 would.

8 hours ago, Thyrwyn said:

I started with RQ2, and my experience over the last 35 years is that everyone just learns the capped value. If the limit is 4, everyone learns 4 - any limits such as INT or ‘just a starting PC’, are circumvented at the earliest opportunity, either through matrices, money, or spirits. Such circumventions add nothing to the experience of the game, so:

why not make the spells fixed in cost and effect? Make them all 4 point spells at the equivalent effect ; either allow Heal to reattach a limb or divide it into 2 spells (one stops bleeding, one reattached limbs). No one who knows 

I also started with RQ2, and I'd disagree that everyone 'just learns the capped value'. They may, eventually, gravitate towards knowing the variables they do know at their capped value, but they start off with lesser variants. And when there aren't any caps, they go past as far as the resources available to them in the world permit and they think their chosen role requires (which latter consideration makes the comments about Healing true whether there are caps or not, with the 'modern' exception, perhaps, of everyone having access to Heal Wound). For me, having natural "story-based" limitations works way better than fixed limits.

17 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Is there so much spell storage in RQG that a character can afford to allocate 10 points to memorize it? I mean, even with an 18 CHA (they use CHA instead of INT now, right?) that only leaves 8 points free for other spells, and a character would probably want to have Protection, some Healing, a POW vs POW type spell such as Disrupt to get POW gain rolls, plus maybe one or two other useful spells like Light, Speedart, Mobilty, or Repair on hand.  

There are ways of extending your Spirit Magic cap.

You can use the spells that bound Spirits know "...The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

And I'm struggling to find the reference, but I'm fairly sure you can transfer knowledge of Spirit Magic to a Spirit you have bound, so you can forget it... But that might be a [mis]remembered feature of a different ruleset.

Creating matrices is an option for Priests (or people with knowledge of Spirit Magic or Sorcery Enchantments), and the sacrificed POW can be applied either piecemeal, or by contributors other than the caster (I can imagine a Hero Band or set of Huscarls all chipping in a point for a big Matrix that can be passed around).

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

Perhaps the cap can be based on CHA. 1/3 to 1/2 CHA for instance. 

You could use this as a 'default' level of 'what is commonly available', I guess, for when you don't have a 'view' on what would be available from the readily-accessible temples/wise folk. If you're the type of GM who details all the senior NPCs in the area, you'll already know who can do what for the PCs, but if they have an 'unusual' request, that might possibly serviced from outside the 'detailed' environment, having some sort of guideline for yourself is probably a good plan.

8 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Hummm...I can see those points, but it feels like if it does exist but is really hard to get then it becomes just one more thing that NPCs have access to that players don't really in most campaigns (Hero Quest abilities, full allotments of Rune Points, multiple sorcery skills at 90%+). 

I think that only applies to starting characters, really, and because there aren't many "long-running" games of RQG yet... That, and the 'rules' for HQ abilities haven't been published yet. I certainly expect my players to achieve all those things (if any of them fancy digging into the game enough to try Sorcery, having seen their NPC companion chugging along at 'player' level). I feel that the spectrum of NPCs notionally present in the world (even if the players don't get around to interacting with them so they remain somewhat nebulous) should include the full gamut of power levels. But that doesn't mean the players should have immediate access to those power levels, nor that they should be thrown directly into conflict with NPCs at that sort of level of ability. So there's (probably) a Humakti Sword somewhere in the world who knows enough Bladesharp to take a Theist past Bladesharp 4 with a week's prayer and meditation, but the player characters don't know the Sharp Sword exists, let alone where to find 'em. And they probably ought to know better than to be getting into the sort of contest where having that sort of Bladesharp is 'required' until they've got the tools they need.

Just because an NPC has something doesn't mean a PC must have it, but it does mean that, as I see the ethos of the game's design, it ought to be possible for a PC to attain it if they can pay the price and pass the tests.

10 minutes ago, styopa said:

That was just area-based? IIRC legs and chest were all considered 2/10 of a full suit, each other location being 1/10.

Aye. But if you consider only the quantity of material/absolute weight of a set of leg armour, it's not twice the mass of an equivalent piece of arm protection, and might even weigh less than similar protection to the abdomen. It feels like/wears you out more because you have to pick it up and move it with every lift of the foot.

16 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

What armor makes a huge difference.  My cavalry greaves cut my speed way down.  The same weight of whatever on my shoulders made little difference. 

Indeed. RQ3 had leg armour weighing in at twice the encumbrance of 'equivalent' arm protection.

3 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

How fast do you run in armor?  I have done it, but I dont think I have ever been timed at it.  I once chase a witch in a full length skirt when I was wear full chain, heavy greaves and a full size roman cavalry shield through a field of waist high grass.  I bet we did not get much if any over 5 mph.  In the Army I was the pace setter to hit 15 minute miles, and I did a lot of them, so I have a good idea of what 4 MPH is.  I just dont know how fast you can waddle in full armor carrying a pack.  Not very is my opinion.

My experience tells me I can hit 'run' speed in full armour, carrying a pack. By 'run', I mean the sort of speed I can maintain for a mile when unencumbered. But I can't keep it up any longer than I could maintain a sprint, in sports kit (couple of hundred metre). I can't say with any accuracy how well my 'few paces' speed, in mail, greaves, vambraces and large shield compares to the same in lighter gear, because it's much more difficult to gauge, I'm afraid. I also can't say how much long grass would slow me

My experience is by no means universal, though. I'm stocky and on the strong side; I walk, even in full adventuring kit carrying supplies and equipment beyond panoply, faster than 'the rest of the party' including mages in robes and underweight packs (often ending up being told to stay back out of the scouts' way...  ). 

As a passing note, it is my observation that, lacking a declared party order (and someone enforcing it), a group of adventurers will string out according to movement speed in pretty much whatever terrain they're within, and there's a lot more variation in that speed than most rule sets offer.