Snugz

I love this thread. The sagacity is humming on all cylinders and there are great ideas for making the West fun. I don't have a lot to add but in case it gives any ideas or is of interest here's how it was/is being run in my campaign (started 1621, currently midway thru Boat Planet heroquest in 1624 Sea Season; campaign centred on the tiny isle of Giraine off Pithdaros and its hapless heretics enmeshed in QL-Seshnelan politics):     (clearly I read the Guide/other materials' timings of events differently than some)

[spoilers for my players so don't read!]

1621-1623 Seshelan-QL tensions mount, with big Seshnelan invasion of Nolos crushing it in end-1623, Theoblanc declaring Navigationalism anathema (religion dies; Zzaburi/buildings burn etc.) and Pasos assaults begin. Pithdaros tries to help but isn't much aid; coming too late as usual.

PCs gradually learn of Seshna cult connections/revival and "new Froalar" prophecies/possibilties, with one PC becoming such a New Froalar and seeking out a local aspect (fragment) of Seshna Likita to woo. Theme is that the shattered lands of Seshna have many fragmented Likitae who need to be re-united through ties to Talars in order for the land to heal again; and the region. 

Arkati and allies (Elandra, Uz, "Night Dragon" weird Western aspect of Black Dragon/Shadow Dragon, possibly connected to Black Sun out East; etc.) begin slowly extending tendrils into local affairs as that tension in Ralios vs. Seshnela mounts. 

Vadeli are getting their claws into everything and slowly awakening the Blue Vadeli presence, with Red Vadeli pirates becoming more and more of a problem.

1624 it all kicks off: Wolf Pirates return, Mularik leads some Westerners onto the Boat Planet to bring back Waertag the Reaver (for him, to aid the Wolf Pirates and his Arkati schemes vs. Guilmarn; but he doesn't know/care that this helps the Waertagi too). The Boat Planet returns and Waertagi fleet comes back from Hell as a result; they bring the Brithini to help finally crush the QL, and Wolf Pirates move east, with a "puppet" installed to rule Pithdaros, who quickly surrenders to Seshnela rather than fight a doomed battle once Pasos falls. Unfortunately the Vadeli bring back some Hellships of undead Waertagi and so the seas of the West become a battleground for Waertagi vs. Vadeli, for the time being; with Seshnela more focused on their continental affairs vs. Ralios + Arkati. Refugees from QL flee but so far I've envisaged them as thus becoming irrelevant, scattered to the four winds; maybe I will reconsider. Eventually the Brithini will have to intervene with the Vadeli, and the Seshnelans; they are playing the long game.

Chaos seeps in as a result of all of this, encouraged by Vadeli and other villains, and the Gate of Banir opens as "Arkat the Deceiver" returns, and the West gets uglier. I haven't planned precisely how that will pan out, but the other Arkats will be part of the opposition (drawing in PCs of course).

Waertagi can be opponents/challenges on the Westfaring part of the Lightbringers Quest (~Grey Shore/Luathela area), with LBQers getting a ride on a Waertagi ship via force or via bargaining, so that could be a tie-in; the Waertagi could use this to benefit from the Storm Tribe's Air magic (for later usage?).

If you've played the purple Luathan folk as a GM or thought about it, any ideas for things they'd do if met by heroquesters in Luathela? I've got what's published on them (& related Lightbringers Quest-type stuff); fishing for extra flair.  (Players if you're here, don't look)

Elves of Brithos: that's odd. Maybe visiting remnant White Elves from the Sky Realm? Perhaps that helps explain why his Sky Realm home is in the Celestial Forest ("Doves").

Thread I was thinking of, with lots more "who's Arkat?" ideas: 

My understanding was that Ralios major battles vs. Seshnela don't begin until 1624/1625 depending on sources; i.e. after Quinpolic League gone and Boat Planet risen.

There was a thread on this earlier that I mined too, for similar reasons. I personally prefer the idea that the 5 Arkats have little to do with the heroes in Dragon Pass; e.g. Harrek is not one of them. There are plenty of interesting local contenders. If Argin Terror isn't the Chaos aspect then I'd be shocked, as he is clearly set up to become a Big Bad (more so than he already is!). I guess Argrath could be Arkat the Destroyer or there could be more than one of those.

Personally I feel the Arkats should already have some connection to Arkat or it becomes silly, e.g. anyone can be an Arkat. Of course Arkat could become ~anyone via heroquesting but that is different.

Meriatan the Swallow has been suggested as Liberator aspect. 

Troll aspect would presumably come from / Halikiv Zorakarkat but I don't know who is most likely.

See also:

Alternative Seshnela-Ralios timeline : https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/HeroQuestRPG/11657.html and https://www.pensee.com/dunham/ror/aruzban.html

Argin Terror info, as Arkat the ?Deceiver/Devil/Gbaji: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/8076-on-argin-terror-and-tinaros/

Ahh I see where I got the Vadeli-created-Slarges idea: it came from p14 of Tradetalk 13, so it's non-canonical (but I love the article's over-the-top approach). If I were them I'd still try to take credit for creating them, and try to manipulate them (even if not friends) as the slarges push eastwards.

Nice points as always, Joerg. It seems in Dragon Pass, we can pretty much forget about the Vadeli except as cameos and perhaps as minor troublemakers along the southern coasts where there are fellow Malkioni to mess with. I bet the Vadeli have minor connections to the Lunars and Ralzakark, and maybe stronger to Gagix Twobarb since she's more southern. In the far East, I don't know that they have any influence.

In the south, I'm not so familiar with what they're up to but it seems to be focused on Fonrit and the demonic/slavery stuff there, and the slarges (which they've been blamed for creating and might ally with?) and like you say the Mostali, to the west. Then in Jrustela they've got their (mostly Brown?) gig going. So aside from the latter stuff that seems to leave the West as the big problem area, as we'd expect. With the Dormal/Navigationalist/Quinpolic power crushed by Seshnelans in 1624/5 I bet they see a nice opportunity, and the Boat Planet could be their sign (and enabler). I'd see them rushing into the power vacuum area there to maximize trouble; making everything harder for everyone. Meanwhile the Arkati are ratcheting up their heroquesting and sabre-rattling vs. Seshnela and that is likely to draw Vadeli attention, especially as the Gate of Banir gets thrown back open and Chaos leaks back into the West ("Chaos Miasma") with the urging of Argin Terror, as Arkat the ?Deceiver/Devil/Gbaji?, and whatever Urcheth is... so I bet there's fun stuff for the Vadeli to meddle with.

The Vadeli prospered in the Ice Age so I bet they'd love the flood; maybe even take credit for it? Perhaps commandeering icebergs as undead/slave-crewed battleships? The seas seem like they'll really go bonkers as the Opening ends; and the Dormali wane in influence + Wolf Pirates step aside, distracted by Dragon Pass events? Eventually the Brithini/Waertagi would put their sorcerous feet/fins down and say enough's enough though.

I'm curious how the other major Western seafaring people, the Vadeli, fit into the Hero Wars. Nary a mention of them in most official sources (although in Pamaltela they're surely actively involved). It's hardly a secret that the Red Vadeli are back but the (blue) Boat Planet would make an ideal time for the Blue Vadeli to return and perhaps Vadeli are doing their own sinister ceremonies w/the Boat Planet heroquest; or corrupting others'. Once the Closing is gone and the Navigationalists/Quinpolics are decimated they probably have a great opportunity in Genertela. Ditto with the "rise" of Mostali block-thing by Jrustela; old allies reconnected w/Orange Guild of Jrustela. Thoughts?

The Guide indicates they're coming back to comb the fog for Brithos, then they take a Brithini army to help the Seshnelans defeat the Quinpolic League once and for all (in 1624 IIRC so I think this happens soon after the Boat Planet!); so then they have dominance over the Western seas. Meanwhile the Closing has "ended" and people gradually realize this so I imagine the Waertagi are struggling to suppress contenders for sea dominance, especially vs. the Wolf Pirates (Guide also hints at this; that it's a Waertagi vs. Dormali fight and WPs are in the latter camp). I'd expect the WPs to oppose the Waertagi in the Nochet area since they're around there at that time, having completed the Circumnavigation and Harrek ready to settle scores w/Lunars in that region...

I bet first contact is at Brithos. They come sailing back over the edge of the world and that's closest on the western side.

I'm (re)reading the Malazan Book of the Fallen series lately and it has some Gloranthan vibes to it-- not necessarily Iron Age (but alien world), lots of ancient civiilizations/elder races (including a dragonewt-like one), fairly complex gods and magics (some truly epic sorcery etc.), very gritty action.

8 hours ago, Leingod said:

Now, since the secrets of the Young God were what allowed Lorion to enter the Sky World, we can suppose that perhaps the Young God was also key to the raising of the Boat Planet in some way. Maybe his secrets were used here, or his permission was sought, or maybe even his seeing and acknowledging this was key to allowing the Boat Planet to become a "proper" part of the Sky World again, once all the opposition was beaten away. There's some bits and pieces of the Glorious Re-Ascent that seem to paint the Young God as a sort of gatekeeper for what gets to be allowed to remain in the Sky World, after all.

OK yeah I like that interpretation and others above. If life is a cycle, like Yelm's, and the Boat Planet was there before Time, then from the Young God's perspective perhaps it is just and lawful that the Boat Planet returns again, too.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Rising of Lightfore at the beginning of Seaseason aligns with the Youth, and his subsequent progression in the Sky tells the story of the Young God (aka Young Yelm).

OK that makes some sense, I had missed the Yelm connection. I haven't the foggiest notion how this relates to the scenario, in which questers oppose powerful Sky realm beings rather than aid them, and how this Young God is hinted at (the way I read it) as being some Big Hero Wars development.

3 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Maybe it would have been revealed in later books that never happened? (Just going off the wiki here, I've never read Sartar Rising.)

Otherwise Dormal sounds plausible. Maybe it's Argrath, because when in doubt, assume everything is always Argrath somehow.

Haha yeah indeed; that Argrath gets around. It's definitely not Dormal; that is noted. It is said to be a "new" god. It does seem that it was intended to be elaborated on in a followup adventure, as it was a momentous event in the scenario.

(Gathering Thunder spoiler, sorry!)

Hi, random Qs from running the Boat Planet/Sky Ship quest in my Western Glorantha game:

If you are in the Sky realm, looking up from the Sky River toward the top of the dome, is the 'sky' golden not blue?

Arkat has a constellation. Did he "steal" the original star in it from Nysalor/Gbaji?

Options:

1- They might heroquest to bring him back, drawing PCs into that (fun!)

2- Someone rises from within them to fill the void, e.g. Mularik Ironeye-- or from outside. Sir Ethilrist?

3- They fall apart (less exciting) or ask killer to be leader (could be fun)

I've never had this happen myself, on that scale.

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, would you sail over the edge, or collide with the sky dome?

I'd think you'd either sail up into the Sky realm (i.e. via Lorion), or down into the underworld (i.e. via Styx), or forever/into Chaosium (the latter could be called "over the edge" and might be what the Outer Atomic Explorers of Godlearners did???).

I hope it is OK if I ask a tangential question. Well, a bunch of related ones. I've seen it repeatedly mention that, in the Hero Wars, the Dormali (not sure which) are "opposed" by the Waertagi, and the context seems to centre on the former's re-opening of the seas, and the Boat Planet's re-rise in ~1624.

So this has me confused-- (1) Waertag and Dormal are both key Heroes on the Boat Planet in a published scenario (will avoid spoilers) and cooperating, although their agendas may well differ; and (2) what is the nature/motivation of the cited conflict between Waertagi and Dormali?

Is it as simple as dominance of the seas? Or, not mutually exclusive, something specific like the Pirate King vs. Waertag the Reaver (hinted at in the published scenario), and/or Wolf Pirates? Are the Waertagi trying to re-close the seas if opened, or limit access just to them? (the former wouldn't make sense as that hurts them, although they are allies of Brithini/Zzabur so maybe there is a more clever scheme at play; the latter makes sense to me but Waertagi use Dormal's magic so they would want that to be maintained?)

And how does Navigationalism/Ship of Life Church fit in (this is Dormali, and is crushed by Seshnela with aid of Waertagi et al. as I understand it)-- but Navigationalism is just one sect of Dormal, so this seems a regional issue, not so pan-oceanic.

I know there aren't yet canonical answers to all/most of these, and likely won't be for quite some time, but would love to hear speculations. I am a bit baffled by how the vague threads tie together (and it's a mix of canon and non-canon but I'm not so worried about that).

IMG Brown Vadeli make a substance called "chocolatl" whose origins are highly suspect.

Way back when in very-non-canonical stuff I wrote about Mostali drinks (Flintnail cult) including some hot ones... I think, but I cannot find that article right now.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Or maybe -- dragons being dragons -- the Black Dragon just decided it didn't want to be dead anymore, and went back to hang out with Cragspider some more...

Or if draconic beings "live backwards" maybe it isn't dead yet?

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I've read that the monster Belintar slew late in his conquest of the Holy Country, whose back now forms the Lead Hills north of the Shadow Plateau, was called the 'Night Dragon.'  So Cragspider's dragon may not be the only Darkness-associated dragon still around.

I think that's a name for the Black Dragon in the West; e.g. Malkioni? So maybe this was just an aspect of the Black Dragon via one myth, not the Dragon Pass one?

It seems to me that Gloranthan serpents and draconic forms have a lot of overlap in Gloranthan myth/beings; e.g. rivers can be snakes (Zola Fel etc.)/dragons (Aroka), Earth snake-beings such as Seshna are often described as also draconic-like, and so on (I know I am forgetting some good examples). This has plenty of parallels in (Western, at least; maybe even more, e.g. Eastern) real-world mythology of course.

But I was pondering, what is the underlying Gloranthan mythology that connects Earth/Water serpents and Draconic nature, if any? I'd love to hear any scholarly takes. Or jokes.

Does this go back more to Hykim/Mikyh and reptilian-snaky nature coming from dragons?

Got inspired- Will be horrifying my River Voice PCs, heroquesting via Camenura to learn about the Cleansed One's background, by having them encounter "Jack O' Broos" that gained their Harmonize ability from the (pre-Cleansed) Cleansed One broo's theft of Harmony's power from the Three-Bean Circus. Muhaha.

34 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I know the current trend is to illustrate or model them as bearlike creatures with heads that vaguely resemble pumpkins, but that's insufficiently chaotic for me. The jack-o'bear's head IS a pumpkin: vegetable, bright orange, and there's probably a lighted candle inside it, if you stare into its carved-out eyes.*

I wonder if there is a myth in which the first Do-karal/Hungry Jack stole the light from Yelmalio for its lantern. Maybe another Hill of Gold suffering for poor lightboy. And Aldryami would be none too pleased by the infection of good innocent pumpkins; perhaps Aldrya is tied into the origin myth. Could lead to some fun heroquesting for Yelmalions and elves to stick it to the jack-o-bears. Meanwhile I wonder how bear hsunchen feel about all this ursine appropriation. Harrek not available for comment?