Lord Shag

Sorry rust i didn't get back to your post.

1. The academic discussion is lively, but has only minimal impact on the book market, the few exceptions being academics who are also respected critics. Academics don’t care about the book market.

2. The "serious analysts" have failed to agree on any comprehensive system of literature categories / genres, mainly because the authors do not follow any easily recognized and described pattern. Yes thats exactly what I've been saying. Serious analysts are not interested in classifying or categorization Lit. Fans are though. Serious analysts may be interested in why people perceive a genre to be a genre but would probably chuckle in condescension at the fans insistence that this is this and so on.

3. Quite the contrary, many authors intentionally try to write something fresh and original that does not fit into any established category, forcing the "serious analysts" to return to the drawing board and attempt to come up with a new system of genres. They don’t care about the categories.

Ok been away from the computer at work sorry for the delay in replying. This an enjoyable debate. Ok simon you first.

1. I'm sure genres are imagined by the consumer. Yes. All that you say is very true which I have no problem with. And to go back to the original question in the thread heading we have them for this reason. This is in fact their whole reason for existence. Genres are usually the by-product of commerce, which in it self is no problem at all, writers and publishers need to make a dollar so go for it.

2. Are all these supposed genres just catch-phrases thrown out willy nilly by marketing people? Yeah pretty much. If you go back to Nick’s original post in this thread his opinion is spot-on about nomenclature creating unique value. Some authors may try to differentiate what they write as a genre for reasons other than cash though.

3. How do 'serious analysts' categorize things, and if their way is better why hasn't the market caught on? Well the answer to this is that serious analysts don’t get caught up with categorization that much. Why? Because it’s a pretty shallow way to analyze lit. Consumers and fanboys get caught up with it. They do this for a variety of reasons and in extreme examples (like star wars v Star trek) it can be a form of self-identity or brand fetish. Look, I love the free market and all its tools for coaxing cash out its target market but its tools are not necessarily what I would use to understand texts better. The argument that I have promoted here is probably not going down well with some because the idea that you can divide Lit into these neat little categories is very strongly a part of most reader’s conception of how we should understand literature.

4. If there are no genre conventions… Well the conventions you perceive Simon are the ones the marketing machine want you to perceive. Most serious writers would be insulted by the notion of a set of conventions imposed upon their work. If the issue of conventions arise its usually because an editor or publisher is getting pissed because the text is going to be difficult to market and will appeal to the “conventions” in an attempt to persuade an author to modify the text. I’ll give you an example of the closest thing to a genre convention. If you write to Mills & Boone they will send their “formula” for budding authors, which guide what you can and cannot do. Now these guidelines are things like, if you’re going to write sweet romance than no penetrative sex scenes or the protagonist sticking their tongue down the heroine’s throat. Now you can of course do that if you are writing in the raunchy romance stuff they publish. But as you can see it’s just publishers using a marketing standard to better target their product.

5. If horror is about characterization and romance is about plot and fantasy is about setting, then what is a novel that has all three? This is a bit of bigger discussion which I will launch upon a little later as other people are entering the discussion with the same issue.

"Some genres seem to be defined by setting". Yes thats correct and both sci-fi and fantasy are united by the same thing. But only if you accept that they (genres) exist from a literary point of view and are not some imagined category in the mind of the consumer

"Other genres conventions are defined by mood: Horror, Gritty, Heroic." Theres probably no such thing as a genre convention. Maybe from a fanboy or marketing point of view but most serious analysts would scoff at such a vague thing as a tool of literary analysis. Mood? Its not a story element. As an aspect of crafting scenes sure it has a role but if your trying to use it for something more your probably overstating its significance.

Really, shouldn't a genre consist of both a setting and a mood? All stories have settings but not all (so called genres) emphasize setting to the same degree. Mood has no part in any analysis of genre. All writers have to generate mood in whatever genre they write so your kinda stating the obvious. As a definitive aspect of a genre no serious analysis I've read would make the suggestion that mood defines any genre. Mood is an important part of writing but so are windscreen wipers for driving a car. We wouldn't say however that windscreen wipers define the car or driving.

Getting back to your original question, Rust the problem with these genres is that outside of marketing and fanboys, they breakdown very easily under sustained analysis. As a mode of categorization they certainly can highlight choices for the consumer which is something Thallaba found of use but when you start to distill the differences they appear increasingly shallow and superficial. For example i mentioned earlier that what differentiates sci-fi from other genres is in the setting which is incidentally what it also shares with the fantasy genre. Its this similarity of story element (the so-called defining aspect of the genre) that is the reason for its proximity to fantasy in the first place. When the writer starts to develop a setting his main choices are time, place and nature. Those choices are the same for the so-called "rock hard" sci-fi author to the softest, most limp space fantasy writer. The difference is in the nature of the settings they describe. A much more useful way to categorize literature is to do so by the story elements. For example romance is mainly about plot, horror (or at least classic horror is) characterization and of course setting for fantasy and sci-fi. So to finally get to the answer there is a good argument that both fantasy and sci-fi are in fact the same thing albeit for minor adjustments to setting.

Thats interesting Rust. Never had much of an insight into German Lit though I have read a bit of Hermann Hesse.

Heyyyy dragon. good question. My pompous ass Lit teacher would reply with someone like, "Ohhh its just a matter of emphasis Mr Appel, consider some examples...." Actually I think that can understate things a little. Really what is the sci-fi writer doing? Essentially using setting (or more correctly a setting element - technology) to shape the story. Some sci-fi writers don't even do that. The setting element (technology) often sits there passively whilst the plot intertwines itself into that fabric. Take Dick, (the writer, not an angry man-tool) he was quite good at setting up the conflict with the technology (Minority Report) it didn't just sit there as a backdrop.

Thanks rust, my memory of 3rd year Lit is not that bad after all. Thats actually not a bad write up for wiki. Most serious academics tend to see genres for what they are; the tools of media critics, publishers and other marketeers. Don't get too carried away with the differences.

this has become an amazing thread! I wonder how all our american comrades will interpret my name. when i was about to post to this thread the other night it was quite small. And really the comment i was going to make the other night still stands though there are some interesting threads here that could be pursued further.

The other night i was going to say that I think Nick's observation is the most useful here regarding nomenclature. I'd like to add to that, in that when groups try and build a unique sense of value their motives are often diverse ranging from the aesthetic to the purely ideological. However, at times they can be patently absurd. Tracing the differentiation between hard sci-fi and science fantasy is i think is one of these cases where its actually hard to put a finger on. But as someone pointed out earlier all fiction is speculative so many of these so called genres or sub-genres are a little puerile. Really when we talk of hard sci-fi and space fantasy we are only really dealing with a question of emphasis not with any essential difference in essence.

The origins of term (hard sci-fi) i think came from an earlier literary critic whose name i have forgotten but the magazine he wrote for was I think as a matter of editorial policy (or in Nick's sense, "attempt to build unique value") trying to position it itself as being different to more fantastic types of sci-fi. Now this was nothing less than pure old fashioned marketing. Thats fine but it also should remind us that often genres exist to control and influence audience. The debate over whether your fiction is "hard" or "soft" is mirroring this control. Just look at the flame wars between trekkies and star wars fans. What is going on? Two sides fighting over the content of two frikkin corporations.

PROGRESS REPORT

The proof copy of BRP Star Wars had 14 chapters. Two minor ones have been deleted and consolidated into the surviving 12 or shifted to the BRP Star Wars GM Guide (more on this later). So the chapters so far are these:

1. CREATING A STAR WARS PC

2. SKILLS

3. THE FORCE

4. SPACE TRAVEL

5. STARSHIP COMBAT RULES

6. STARSHIP DESIGN

7.VEHICLE RULES

8. DROIDS

9. TABLE OF FORCE POWERS

10. WEAPON NOTES

11. DESTINY POINTS AND FORCE POINTS

12. EQUIPMENT

I. Weapons Annexure

II. Sheets

Ch1-2 needed heavy edits and 1 has passed the final edit. 2 is almost complete. Ch3 looks good and I'm going to leave as is, though I fret about the lack of play test of the elements in that chapter. Ch4 also looks good with some minor edits to be done. 5 is being modified as we speak and considering how this is the most difficult of the chapters to put together its resilience during play test is a miracle. Starship Design is fine and any changes in the future will come from the large number of conversions from d6 and d20 that I will eventually do. Vehicles rules are a big question mark. This was a difficult chapter to put together and unlike the starship combat rules the one I was least happy with so this could hold things up. Ch8 is kinda OK. Every time I venture into it though I keep on encountering annoying albeit minor issues. Force powers considering its size only has some minor textual edits to be done. Play experience in the future may alter this a lot. 10-12 are all good and need virtually no changes.

Oh, BTW how do the sheets look?

Still looking about a week. No sample label on the finished goods unless i chuck out an excerpt which i might do if i push the deadline back.

Ok guys just uploaded a sample of the starship control sheet. This one will print to a better resolution then the character sheet which i haven't got round to fixing. Just a note that also applies to the character sheet as well, when you seem to design this stuff in MS word after you do the PDF conversion and view the conversion on the computer, it can look a little crap. I dont why maybe its one of the drawbacks of word, however it looks a lot of better when printed. cheers.

How are you mate? Its been awhile since we last spoke! I 'll try and get the corrections done this week. I finished the thing about two weeks ago but there is nothing like having a hard copy in front of you to see your errors and other gibbering nonsense you sometimes write. Most of the issues are minor so hopefully soon.

BTW for those who have downloaded the sheet I have mistakenly set it to only get it to print in 150 dpi which is prob why it does not look so good printed. I will fix it to get a better printing copy up and running.

Hi guys been a while since i posted. For the last six months I've been doing some serious treatment of a BRP star wars players guide. It is complete (weighing in at about 80 pages) but I'm going through some proofing & play test before its ready to upload. I have in the meanwhile uploaded a sample of the character sheet if people want to have a look. Give your opinion if you like either here or PM me. I'll update this thread as more progress occurs.

yeah i agree the reader is definitely not the problem its the human input thats the problem

Downloaded and tried Foxit...that dog don't hunt...

harshax if you hold off for a week or two i might be able to assist you with your problem. similar to the divine spellist i gave you, i'm preparing a similar one for just arcane spells. i am running it through play test at the moment which i didn't do with the divine spells. I am running a playtest with the divine stuff as well and will have the results of that soon.

hi skarl, didn't know about these. thanks for the heads up. went to drive thru and bought them this afternoon. They are very, very, useful particularly if you are building a system from the ground up.

Hi guys been a while since i have posted, here but talk about divine miracles! Only today i have just finished putting the finishing touches on a comprehensive conversion of a whole series of divine/clerical spells for BRP. I was coming on here to post a message to see if anyone would be interested in having a glance over the thing to get some feedback on improving it or adding to it etc etc.

It runs to approx 16 pages includes about 40 spells with proper detailed descriptions, borrows heavily from RQ with a bit of DnD chucked in. Some BRP spells are also included as well. The mechanics are spun off from BRP magic. If any of you are interested in casting an eye over it just PM me your email address and i'll shoot off a copy to peruse. It might not be straight away as i still might tinker with a few bits and pieces but it will certainly be sometime this week. If you do happen to get a copy off me feel free to be critical and don't spare the ego! We want to make BRP the most kick a$$ game there is.

hi dredj

where do they have that date? i can't find it anywhere? you gotta link?

hi guys

this specifically relates to dredj"s assertion that BRP ships from us amazon on or around the 4th june. However the earliest available date i could find on the site was june 20th? what gives?