Question regarding Firearms in Point Blank Range

[Keeper Bolog]

Hi Everyone,

 

according to the rules you can NOT fight back against firearms. That's logical, the bullet is way too fast.

But what about in Point Blank Range? I know the attacker gets a bonus die in point blank range for his firearm roll, but can the defender fight back or dodge against it ? The Rules state that you can for Thrown or Ranged Weapons, but do firearms count as Ranged Weapons or is this only for spears and other thrown things?

It would be logical for the defender to be able to smack the gun away from his face if the attacker is that close... So what do you guys suggest?

 

Thanks!

[werecorpse]

I think it’s not for firearms under the rules. Though it does have some appeal.

Imo The way the rules would represent what you’re suggesting is that on the turn of the person without the gun they could elect to perform a grapple manoeuvre to prevent the gun from being able to be used to shoot them. The classic wrestling over a firearm schtick. If they have higher dex than the gun wielder all well and good, however they had lower dex than the gun wielder they may well have already been shot. 
 

Then one might allow a grapple manoeuvre to try and shoot the gun at the wrestler which would allow a dodge or fight back?

I think in this wrestling over a gun situation drama would demand that if the wrestling went on too long the gun would go off and both parties would stare at each other not knowing who had been shot until one slumped to the floor…

Edited May 18, 2023 by werecorpse
Adding thoughts

[mvincent]

12 hours ago, Keeper Bolog said:

But what about in Point Blank Range? I know the attacker gets a bonus die in point blank range for his firearm roll, but can the defender fight back or dodge against it ?

 

p.113 says "A target may not fight back against or dodge a Firearm attack as they can a Fighting attack". However, the defender can Dive for Cover (p.113). Also, the rules (p.114) do say "One penalty die is applied when targeting a combatant involved in melee combat"... and you're arguable in melee when firing at point blank...

I've used this to simplify the rules and just ignore the point-blank bonus die (i.e. if a player ever asks for a point-blank bonus die, I say 'yes, and you also have a penalty die for being in melee'). I also allow firearm dodging in my games for simplicity and cinematic reasons.

Edited May 18, 2023 by mvincent

[Keeper Bolog]

Thanks for the reply, I see the "shooting into melee" penalty die as being if you shoot from range into melee.... Cause i find it too annoying to have steps like:

• you have a bonus die because you are at point blank range
• but then you are in melee with them/they are in melee with someone else near you so you also have a penalty die
• so they cancel each other out and you have a normal dice roll.

I find that annoying so I guess i'll keep as the rules suggest 1/5th dex = point blank bonus die , penalty if shooting at a group of people fighting each other and if you go into melee you risk to get your weapon grabbed the next turn.

[mvincent]

4 hours ago, Keeper Bolog said:

I see the "shooting into melee" penalty die as being if you shoot from range into melee

That's absolutely what the designers intended, I'm merely using pedantry to get rid of a rule I don't like. I've drastically quickened combat by ignoring rule exceptions (point-blank, shooting into melee, not dodging firearms, etc.), but I occasionally get a player that actually reads the rules and now wants their bonus. (<sarcasm> because calculating 1/5th dex during combat totally increases my players' immersion</sarcasm>).

It's weird: D&D actually gives you a penalty die for using a ranged weapon (including firearms) at close range.

Edited May 19, 2023 by mvincent

[werecorpse]

8 hours ago, mvincent said:

It's weird: D&D actually gives you a penalty die for using a ranged weapon (including firearms) at close range.

That’s if you’re actually in melee range. Point blank in CoC ime tends to be about 10ft away but I guess can be that close, and in CoC the point blank bonus doesn’t apply to rifles, non sawn off shotguns etc because the length of barrel makes them too cumbersome. 
 

I think the bonus die/penalty die facility in the CoC rules is great for those wanting a bit of granularity in combat. Equally it can be ignored without too much drama. 
If a player said they wanted to close on an armed enemy to get into a wrestle to avoid being shot on their action I would have no problem with cancelling out the point blank bonus and offering a penalty die.