Emergency Dismount, Horsemanship rolls & Mounted Knockdown.

[Luca Cherstich]

The rules on emergency dismount (p.150-151) can be confused with the rule for rolling Horsemanship to diminish the damage from falling from horse (p.194). Two different systems doing similar things.... that's confusing.

The texts suggest me some other doubts.

1) I frankly do not understand whether the rules on p.194 can be applied also after a failed Emergency Dismount (making falling way less dangerous).

2) it is not clear if, after suffering a mounted knockdown (p.149) it is possible to apply any of the two new mechanics for avoiding falling damage or if you just have to suffer the 1d6 damage.

Any thoughts?

 

[Morien]

17 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Any thoughts?

I believe that all three are part of the same thing, and should use the Emergency Dismount rules.

p. 149 states that you take 1d6 falling damage, but on the very next page it says that you can use Emergency Dismount to limit the damage "when a rider is about to fall or be thrown from a horse", and I think being knocked off the saddle qualifies.

The rules in p. 194 map perfectly on the Emergency Dismount results, albeit simplified: a successful ED means no damage (1d6-1d6 = 0 damage, same), a fumble means double (1d6 * 2 = 2d6 damage, same). A reference to p. 150-151 Emergency Dismount would have been nice.  (EDIT: Doh, silly me, there is a sidebar referencing it.)

House-rule: If you succeed in ED, you can choose to EITHER not take damage, OR to hold onto your weapon.

Edited June 28 by Morien

[Luca Cherstich]

It's frankly a mess....

[Morien]

8 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

It's frankly a mess....

Much less of a mess than some other clear errata. This is more of an issue of summarizing the rule but not explicitly referencing it.

[Luca Cherstich]

If I read literally the text, trying not to interpret, that's what I get

1) DEX roll to avoid been thrown down either because I've been struck, hitting my Knockdown threshold (p.149) or my horse's Size (p.150).

2) Emergency Dismount Horsemanship roll (p.150).

3) Horsemanship roll to diminish the suffered damage (p.194).

...3 rolls.....to avoid just 1d6 of damage?

I know that no. 2 is possibly just a "specific" version of no. 3.

However.....do really need to make 2 rolls to avoid 1d6 damage?

[Luca Cherstich]

....on the other hand the table 7.4 with reference to lost weapons is interesting (as already underlined by Morien).

I feel the solution should be for p.194 to explicitly say that the mentioned Horsemanship roll = the Emergency Dismount from page 150.

Edited June 28 by Luca Cherstich

[Luca Cherstich]

I'm also wondering: how much realistic is to allow an "Emergency Dismount" after having been hardly hit by a lance?

I admit my ignorance and I have no direct experience about jousting, but the idea of a mounted knight been impaled by a lance and graciously fall on his feet ..... seems ridiculous.

Most knights have high Horsemanship and this means that success in Emergency Dismount (and ridiculous situations) will just be more common.

Almost nobody will end up prone on the ground after having been dismounted by a lance hit. And I frankly dislike it.

I guess a possible solution may be to not allow Emergency Dismount when a Critical hit is made or when suffering Damage equal to Size X2, but I'm not sure if any of these two may work.

Edited June 28 by Luca Cherstich

[Zarkov]

19 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I feel the solution should be for p.194 to explicitly say that the mentioned Horsemanship roll = the Emergency Dismount from page 150.

I guess that’s exactly what the margin note on p. 194 means.

 

The rule for reducing falling damage used to be part of the unconsciousness rule block. Kind of a consolation price when your knight takes a hefty hit while on his horse, but you cannot try to stay in the saddle because, well, he’s now unconscious. “Sorry, nothing you can do, you’re out, here, take d6 damage.“

It mitigated that unpleasant feeling of getting completely deprotagonised: You always got to make a roll either to try and stay on your horse or at least make a graceful landing, but that one roll you could count on. (Well, unless you got auto–knocked down, of course, which is meant to hurt.)

In the current rules this has been expanded into a general rule for whenever your guy takes a fall, so now you can get two rolls in some cases: First to stay on, then to soften the impact. The intent seems to be increased realism by modelling break-falls. I think it’s a bit too much.

 

 

[Luca Cherstich]

I'm frankly thinking about NOT allowing an Emergency Dismount roll if the knockdown is the result of a Mounted Charge (whatever damage is dealt)...a Dex roll is enough......I really dislike the proliferation of ninja-like knights (as all decent knights have at least 15+ Horsemanship), being hit by lances and always falling on their two feet.....and sometimes even with weapons still in hand.

Emergency Dismount seems more appropriate for situations where you suffer a hit from something with less momentum than another charging knight, or maybe when the horse itself is about to fall.

Edited June 28 by Luca Cherstich

[Morien]

I missed that you would remain standing on the Emergency Dismount success.

I think I would change the success so that you fall down but keep hold of your weapons and do not take damage from the fall. In essence, you manage to land more softly / rolling to break the fall. If you fail, you fall, take the damage and drop your stuff. If you critical, THEN you manage to roll back upright or vault off and run to break your momentum, if it wasn't about a lance hit on you.

[Morien]

46 minutes ago, Zarkov said:

I guess that’s exactly what the margin note on p. 194 means.

Thanks! I can't believe that my eyes just skipped over that.

So it is referenced, and clearly the same Horsemanship roll, as I expected.

[Luca Cherstich]

31 minutes ago, Morien said:

I missed that you would remain standing on the Emergency Dismount success.

I think I would change the success so that you fall down but keep hold of your weapons and do not take damage from the fall. In essence, you manage to land more softly / rolling to break the fall. If you fail, you fall, take the damage and drop your stuff. If you critical, THEN you manage to roll back upright or vault off and run to break your momentum, if it wasn't about a lance hit on you.

Is a shield considered a "weapon"?

I guess so.

By the way, for me a success in the Emergency Dismount should just make you avoid damage. All objects should be thrown away, as you try to not get hurt.

A Critical is something different and special. Even is Getting upright and holding the weapons seems too much to me. I would make the player choose.

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Is a shield considered a "weapon"?

The kite shield was often worn with a guige, and unlike a round shield or a scutum, it was strapped to the arm. Thus, I would allow a (kite) shield to be retained.

I am a bit more lenient than you.
Critical: Take no damage and keep your weapon. (Edited)
Success: Fall down. Choose to take damage or keep your weapon.
Failure: Fall down, take 1d6 damage, drop weapon.
Fumble: Fall down, take 2d6 damage (or even get trapped by the horse), drop weapon and shield.

Edited June 28 by Morien

[Luca Cherstich]

2 minutes ago, Morien said:

The kite shield was often worn with a guige, and unlike a round shield or a scutum, it was strapped to the arm. Thus, I would allow a (kite) shield to be retained.

I am a bit more lenient than you.
Critical: Choose two: Stay standing, no damage, keep your weapon.
Success: Fall down. Choose to take damage or keep your weapon.
Failure: Fall down, take 1d6 damage, drop weapon.
Fumble: Fall down, take 2d6 damage (or even get trapped by the horse), drop weapon and shield.

I kind of like it.

By the way....I still do not understand what was in their mind.

- if you are knocked down In a normal, unmounted combat you'll stand up movement phase next round (at the END of the round, therefore wasting 1 round).

- if you are knocked down from horse you do not only have a second Save roll ("the Emergency Dismount") but you may even START next round on your feet.....

That's senseless! Better to fall from horse than to fall from your own two feet!

 

[Morien]

11 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

By the way....I still do not understand what was in their mind.

I could see a Voluntary Dismount leaving you on your feet. But I agree, if you get knocked down from the saddle, you are not going to land on your feet (except in very very rare circumstances). In fact, I think I would alter my Critical rule to just be that you get to keep your weapons and not to take any damage. That way, it is more consistent with the Knockdown rules in general: you always get knocked down, and if you are on horseback, you usually take damage or lose your weapon in order to land more softly (Success, choice), or both (Failure).

[Luca Cherstich]

Emergency Dismount as it is makes sense only when you have the chance to act, e.g. the horse itself is falling, as per p.150.

Re-reading pages 134 and 150-1.....Are we sure that the "Emergency Dismount" is to be applied after EVERY failed Dex roll due to Mounted knockdown?

"Emergency dismount" is not mentioned in the sequence on p.134 ("Determining Knockdown") where a failed Dex rolll or a Damage x2 size just provoke " 1d6 damage from the fall and drop their weapon".

The only clues about using it every time ones falls from horse (inclusing "Mounted Knockdown") is the reference to "thrown from a horse" on p.150 and some "generic feeling" in the text on p.194.

 

Edited June 28 by Luca Cherstich

[Luca Cherstich]

I decided to try to stick as mush as possible to rules as written....even if their presentation is somehow confusing.

I hope the following interpretation is right.

 

Knockdown vs Mounted Knight

To understand this sequence I combine pages 134, 149 and 194.

- DEX roll (if damage exceeds Size) or automatic fall (if damage is twice the size)

- Falling means dropping all held weapons and getting 1d6 of damage

- The knight may attempt an Horsemanship roll to diminish damage (crit -2d6, success - 1d6, fumble +1d6) as per p.194 but NO USE of the Emergency Dismount Table on p.151.

 

Knockdown vs Horse

This is described on p.150-151

- Horse makes a DEX roll (if damage vs Knight or Horse exceeds horse's Size).

- Falling means not only dropping all held weapons and getting 1d6 of damage, but the knight is also crushed under the horse (suffering the Horse's damage - armor, and later he needs to escape).

- To avoid all of this, while the horse is falling, the knight may attempt a "Emergency Dismount" using the table on p.151.

 

Horse falling for other reasons or knight becoming unconscious (p.196)

The knigh can use the Emergency Dismount on p.150-151.

 

 

Edited July 1 by Luca Cherstich