Nick Underwood

Okay... I got cast iron munchkinnery with Shield 4 against GM nitpicking! Do your worst.

(Nothing hugely new here, but an interesting combination of munchkinning egregiousneess that a new gen character could, indeed should, pull off.)

Bob is a newly minted Daka Fal Asst Shaman with 3 RP, and the Rune Magic:

• Summon Ancestor 1
• Summon Specific Ancestor 1
• Spirit Guardian 1

Like many inhabitants of Glorantha he has a family and ancestors. His family maintain a shrine to the ancestors where Bob has led worship ever since his father, the head of the family, died during an unfortunate escapade in character generation. Worship is attended by the extended family and ancestors.

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"When worship services are held, the spirits of the friendly dead invisibly participate. Their presence enables even small families to maintain a shrine or minor temple to their ancestors."

 He loves his family dearly, or at least 60%, and since "Any community with an associated Passion has a wyter." The family has a wyter - that we assume is also the wyter of the shrine.

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Wyter Size:
Community                                    Members     POW         CHA 
Shrine, Large Family, or Vexilla     50–100     4D6+6     3D6 

So let's say...

Members: 50 (Alive: 20, Ancestors: 30)
Wyter POW: 20

The wyter needs a priest, and Bob inherited the post when his father traded the pulpit for the congregation. The community of Ancestors...

• Tend, but not exclusivey, to be Friendly or Neutral
• They are "Known" to the priest of wyter since they attend worship
• From the Summon Ancestor table, we calculate that they would have an average of 1 RuneSpell and 1 RP each. (And the most powerful ancestor could have a POW of 36, 18 RP of Rune Magic...) 

So our new gen Bob, can use Summon Ancestor and Summon Specific Ancestor, to summon any of the 30 known ancestor spirtits, that probably have access to some 30 Rune Spells (probably mostly duplicates) from any of the cults worshipped by any member of the ancestor community... Not bad.

[Note: the restriction that "An ancestor can only cast Daka Fal special Rune magic, and cannot cast common Rune spells." was removed for RBM - possibly because it conflicts with the description of Incarnate Ancestor "The summoned spirit knows all spells, knowledge, and skills it knew while it lived."]

So, we have a DF Asst Shaman with access to a bootload of Rune Spells from across different cults. How to abuse such potential? Spirit Guardian gives the ability to cast an ancestor's Rune Magic as if it were an allied spirit.

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"Spirit Guardian, 1 Point
Ranged, Duration (special), Stackable
This spell must be cast upon a friendly ancestral spirit. It sets up a mental connection, identical to that with an allied spirit (RuneQuest, page 277), between the spirit and the target. Each point stacked with this spell adds a day’s duration. The target can only have one Spirit Guardian at a time."

And an allied spirit "...is in continual mind-to-mind communication with the Rune Lord. They can use each other’s magical abilities, including spell knowledge, magic points, and Rune points."

So Bob can cast the Rune Magic of an ancestor himself. And a wyter can cast the rune magic of it's priest.

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"The Wyter can cast any Rune spell or spirit magic spell known by its priest [...] A wyter spends points of its characteristic POW instead of Rune points when casting Rune spells."

And the wyter can do the wyter super-power-group-buff-thing by spending extra POW.

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"...may cast spirit magic or Rune spells on any member of its community when directed to by its priest. The wyter may even simultaneously cast the same spell on multiple members of the community by spending additional points of POW. Each point of POW spent lets the wyter cast the spell on an additional five members of the community."

And so our newly minted, day 1, Asst. Shaman / Wyter Priest could: 

1. Cast Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor (2 RP)
2. Cast Spirit Guardian (1 RP)
3. Instruct the Wyter to cast any of the ancestor's Rune Magic, say Charisma (1 RP)  Extended for 1 year (5 RP) with a cost of 6 POW, on five people (+2 POW), or all 20 of the ancestor's living worshippers (+8 POW) for a total cost of 14 POW. And no Rune Points held in limbo for the spell's duration.
4. Any other members of Bob adventuring party who selected be family members could also benefit from the buffs.
5. Everyone sacrifices a point of POW to keep the wyter strong. (POW = 20 - 14 + 20 = 26)
6. The next season, Bob starts over with any other spell available to the community. As Bob gains Rune Points, he can perform mulitple rounds in a season.

The POW sacrifices are not neglible and are the ultimate constraint here. But the costs are degressive as the community grows, and there are few limitations on who can sacrifice POW to a wyter.

Bob sets about recruiting the whole clan. The GM counters with Malign Ancestor payback attack. Bob goes looking for a piece of Truestone...

On 9/19/2022 at 10:43 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

In the discussion above we discussed various degrees of voluntariness vs. compulsion applied to donation of POW.  Examples included [...]

Great summary Sten. The original post was a (mischievious) question of what abuses of POW donation for enchantments the rules allowed. It's gone beyond that to the discussing the addtitional constraints that GMs could/should enforce. As a non-GM, non-expert, advocate of the roll-a-dice-and-make-it-up school,  I have little to contibute, but very much enjoying the ride.

On 9/19/2022 at 10:43 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

1) Slavery in which POW is extorted by threat of violence, or possibly deprivation (as coercion of a slave may include deprivation of food or of movement).  This includes prisoners of war or captured criminals, as well as the possibility that Nick's trollkin examples are slaves.  This situation is morally objectionable to most of us, though I pount out it is not morally objectionable to chaotic cults.

Interesting that violence and coercion are not morally objectionable to many (most?) Gloranthan (or any!) societies as long as the coerced outcome is socially sanctioned: slave ownership, hostage-taking, prisoner collection, tax collecting, land grabs, are ultimately done at spear-point. Violence is always an option - to achieve some socially sanctioned outcome.

What is repugnant (to us) in the above scenario is likely not the implict violence, but the notion of forced soul sacrifice. POW is intrinsically personal, intimate, sacred, and messing with it is taboo (to us) - we'd rather lose a leg than a portion of our soul.

But do Gloranthan's see this in the same way? They regularly sacrifice trade and sell POW in return for more mundane advantages. Would glorathans rather lose a leg than a portion of their soul? Regrow Limb 2 Points, Nonstackable.

Which is a funny thing in RQ: POW is both a commodity and unit of exchange, and it is somehow deeply personal and imbued with the essences of God and mortal. Magical money really does have a colour.

On 9/19/2022 at 10:43 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

(2) Destitution in which economic incentives operate.  The destitute party responds to poverty, possibly including hunger and an increased likelihood of childrens' death (per RQiG income effects in sacred time rolls).  If Nick's trollkin are "wild" they would be in this category. Nick points out that this is not morally objectionable to people who follow Milton Friedman, who consider all market interactions just.

I never really undertood Issaries, but wouldn't an Issaries priest be bound to a kind of Friedman extremism? The act of trade isn't only just - it's sacred! 

On 9/19/2022 at 10:43 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or do we fall back on "No one can make you do anything" and deny the reality of compulsion?

I will meditate on that tonight. There's a lot to unpack there!

On 9/19/2022 at 10:43 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

While we are at it let's note that the proposed  passion rolls do not make Nick's POW farm uneconomic.  They just reduce its yield...

State regulation ruining my bottom line... same old, same old. 🙂

23 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so you want your slaves or prisoners to sacrifice your pow ?

Do they have "love master" (so few would have it for sure) ; "love freedom" (so few would have it and would not be already killed after an escape attempt ) "fear master" is not a positive passion (sadly, as so many would have it)

Do they have Love Money? After all, a priest is making 200 L per POW point. It's not expected that the priest make a Loyalty roll. Why make it harder for a non-priest to make a buck?

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

In my mind, sacrificing POW for RP is converting part of your soul into a copy/emulation of the god’s. More Rune Points means less free will as you have literally shifted the balance between your human soul and the presence of the divine within you.

That's quite profound with deep implications, and quite worthy of a mechanic to impress the gradual avatarization of the character upon the player. Perhaps a loss of RP for demonstrating too much free will. 

On 9/18/2022 at 7:36 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

It is my understanding that Gloranthan religion is firmly transactional in accord with Real World bronze age models.

I was going to ask how a sacrifice-for-magic transaction would work in a world where sacrifice was real but magic wasn't.

But now I don't if the answer is that they were naieve, or I am...

On 9/18/2022 at 7:26 PM, Akhôrahil said:

, I believe mortals feeding magic to the gods is a necessary part of the magical ecology of Glorantha. Power flows in both directions, but it seems to me that the mortal world is much stronger at producing magical power

Power flows in both directions but it may not be of equal value on either side. 

On the mortal plane MP are a dime a dozen and RP are scarce. 

Mortals sacrifice a few MP per season and might get back just as many RP. (Ignoring the sunk cost of POW sacrifice) 

So perhaps MP are just as valuable in godtime as RP... Perhaps one MP, ascended to exist in perpetuity in the godtime, is what a RP is. And the initial POW sacrificed for RP is just an account creation fee. 

Actually such accounting would allow for gods that have no native magical power (they cannot run a negative balance). They can only convert the magic that is sacrificed to them and return it to the mortal plane in other forms. 

18 minutes ago, Eff said:

Sure, I'm taking it in light of Hellenistic traditional religion, which was fairly explicitly transactional- do ut des, "I give, so that you may give." There are of course many other examples that are not quite so explicit and philosophical about it, but that's where I'm coming from with that.

Thanks. I did not know that. 

And 2 minutes after posting it occurred to me that the personal experience of sacrifice would not be blunted by community-based rewards. The two could co-exist quite happily. 

1 hour ago, Eff said:

And as I said in a slightly different place up above, I would definitely prefer it if there was some magic associated with communal worship that was distinct from the empowerment of individuals who sacrifice POW. It would give some reason to make material sacrifices beyond boosting an unsteady Worship skill, as a "mechanistic" example alongside the thematic one I outlined.

Putting aside my silly economics hat for a moment... 

I get that worship without visible reward is a gap in the magical economy and overlooks a source of potential plot hooks. But I'm also fond of the idea that worship doesn't contain any reward. It's not transactional, it's just what your character does - like being generous to strangers - or not. 

And this seems closer to what worship should be. Real sacrifice is an investment with no guarantee of a payday. The gap needs to be filled with faith. (And for old atheists like me, an Orlanthi ceremony is as close as l'll ever get.)

1 hour ago, Azurefeline said:

What about the four following beings:

A True Mostali,

A Great or Shanasse Tree of the Aldryami, 

A Mistress Race troll/Uz and

An Inhuman King or Dragonet of the Dragonewts

How much POW or MP would they have and can give out, individually and together? Imagine a budding Vadeli sorcerer who can strap them to a contraption that Taps them, with a little help from some Chaotic beings! Think of the possibilities... 😈

 

I'm honoured that you seem to have chosen this thread for your first post. Welcome to the forum! 

I can't answer your questions as I'm barely Glorantha-literate myself. But hopefully others can. 

However I do applaud your entrepreneurial spirit as a fellow questor for bad things to do in-game that the grumpy GMs will find good reasons to ban. 

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How do I buy into this venture?

We're onboarding anyone with experience of surviving a Spirit or Retribution... 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

However they won't get 5-6 POW gain rolls a year unless they succeed with POW vs POW in a stress situation, and at 5 POW this is unlikely.

Ah yes, good point... How about Inter-Pauper Super Disruption Bowl with the loser getting the lash? Stressful enough? 

On 9/17/2022 at 10:18 AM, Akhôrahil said:

On 9/17/2022 at 8:03 AM, Mugen said:

"You will have eternal life, all you need is give me your soul !".

Gark the Calm ftw!

@AkhôrahilI saw you made an excellent contribution in another thread (relevant here) about the price of a point of POW (200L), and how that would be a significant fortune for the poorer members of society who could use it in times of need - like selling a kidney! 

That this doesn't seem to be widespread, is surely due to the pernicious monopolistic practices of the priesthood!

I propose to liberalise the market in order to ameliorate the disposition of the disposessed. Reducing the poor to 5 POW (and especially the old, infirm, or very young who have meagre need of it) each pauper would generate approximately 4.8 POW per year on average (at 80% POW gain rolls). Even after raising their living standards most considerably to 20 L per year, this would establish a market price of 4 L and 2 C per point of POW. (My corporation will of course exercise an option to purchase all POW at said rate in the territories under its benevolent oversight.)

On 9/17/2022 at 4:54 PM, soltakss said:

If you have to run something by rules-lawyers it is probably suspect to begin with.

Highly suspect. Probably heretical. Outrageously immoral. But lucrative! 

On 9/17/2022 at 4:54 PM, soltakss said:

However, I would play that someone coerced cannot make the appropriate mental connection to donate POW

A good rule of thumb that, along with your other good points suggest POW sacrificed at enchantment needs to come from a creature with INT acting under their own volition and not under any form of coercion at the point of sacrifice.

...I think I can get 3 points or POW out of Trollkin children for 15 L and a toffe apple.

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So you want to play the bad guy?

Not the bad guy. But certainly not a Heroic archetype. Unless your Heroic archetypes are Robber Barons, Milton Friedman, or .com billionaires...

19 hours ago, Eff said:

it's rather fascinating that cults don't directly engage with magical power, and only focus on controlling time and money, rather than requiring PCs to earmark a certain chunk of their magic/RPs for cult use, which of course they can be tempted to break and thus have to do penance and further the cycle of plot points. 

Perhaps this would be a good basis for an RQ hack...

Yes. And it would set up some nice antagonisms between players and cult in a struggle over magical resources which would encourage players to see the moral ambiguity in these power-hungry institutions that defend of the status quo and impoverish the lower classes. In Glorantha the devil really does walk on hob nails while the preacher rides a mount.

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The compromise solution was the cash on hand plus two pair of walktapus hide gloves, plus POW for a high-end enchanted item.  The five bandits were required to contribute 1 POW each

And, IIRC, the compromise was partly motivated out of player concern that a 12 point Matrix would be unreasonable. Which inspired the above musings on what a total lack of reasonableness could look like.

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Another way to use this is on a social level. If you can get every adult in the clan to contribute just one point of POW (which isn’t crippling - they have probably spent 4 POW on the Wyter and their Cult anyway, and probably gain one POW per 5-10 years even if you don’t allow them normal POW gain rolls), you could make a 500 point Rune Magic Matrix,

Right. And (although I understand the reasons) it sometimes irks me that Gloranthan societies don't invest in themselves in this way. A 100 point Bless Pregnancy Matrix would pretty much ensure perfect stats for every new child and would reap huge rewards to the community.

The magical economy of Glorantha is underexploited and underexploitative. In Glorantha, Magic is more potent and more plentiful than money. But initiates are tithed on income, not Rune Points. A real magical economy would be full of exploits and munchkinnery like the above. These are really no more than the magical equivalents of such economic exploits as the lever (you can go build a pyramid) or a water mill (horse team working forever!).

Okay, so the Godlearners tried it, broke the game and got sent to the naughty step. Good reasons not to do the above.  But it never quite quells the irking.

This priestly monopoly on enchantments needs enterprising competition. Like all good entrepreneurs, I want to run my business plan by the lawyers. 

"The POW sacrificed for the enchantment does not have to be provided entirely by the enchanter; if the enchanter sacrifices at least 1 point of their own POW, others can voluntarily contribute to the sacrifice, with no limit." 

How "voluntary" does voluntary need to be? ? Is a slave threatened with death a voluntary choice and therefore a voluntary contribution? Or promised his freedom? Well promised... It does say "can contribute to the sacrifice, with no limit."

(Incidentally RAW are unclear about the POW child slaves have available to farm. But I do note that women are cheaper...) 

Can a controlled entity voluntarily contribute POW? If it has no INT can it reasonably be said to withhold its consent? 

How about a possessed sentient creature? Can the ugly smudge of the victim's soul still be sacrificed from its suppressed state? I declare he did not protest m'lord. 

Herd-men breed readily and can be trained to most things. Certainly they could imitate a sacrificial rite as well as any priest drunk on soma. Do Gods really look that closely at the flavor of POW transactions? (Pork-flavour, I have heard.)

What about a bound spirit? Or commanded cult spirit? It seems those things are floating around everywhere contributing little to society. Could we round them up, order them around as usual, and then squeeze out the POW to make Glamour enchantments for all the boys and girls?

I'm rather short on lunars to pay for legal advice, but offer a 2% stake for counsel - to be forfeited in the case of successful prosecution. 

Funny to see Lindy with Jeorg and Ludo. One of my favourite episodes so far, and so glad that Lindy sometimes even listened to his interviewers!

On 8/15/2022 at 10:28 PM, Brian Duguid said:

Reviving this thread. I have 3-4 players ready to start playing RQ:G online, UK time zone, weekday evening to be decided...

I humbly submit my request to be considered for your gaming group.

I'm an old git (past 50!) and familiar with RQ and - but I haven't played any RPG's for... a long time. 

I have read pretty much everything for RQG (except the Starter Set) so you might prefer players that would interfere less with your future scenario plans. (Or just players who are less old and gitty.)

Urgh... Drive-thru payment problems... But you can count an additional "intended" purchase. That counts, right? 

31 minutes ago, Alex said:

Both (theistic-style) cults and most communities kick in somewhat around Dunbar's Number, so that's the sort of group I tend to think of a having such a thing.  But you have to fudge that relative to commitment. 

Yes. Commitment to the Wyter through MP sac, which really determines the power of the Wyter. But also, as you indicate, commitment to the group, which in Glorantha manifests as the objective bonds of Loyalty. So it is not hard to imagine family, stead, and other small Wyters (household spirits), that have quiet acts of initiation and worship but few real powers beyond the creation and maintenance of Loyalty bonds. 

And there could be an Apple Lane Wyter... But then would the inhabitants have preserved their murky hidden secrets? 😉

The more Wyters the better! It amazes me that pc parties don't come with a wyter as standard. But aren't Wyters associated with communities that have a Loyalty passion, and is a hamlet organised/structured enough to return that Loyalty... Maybe. In any case, Gringle the Wyter is too good an idea to get hung up on details. 

On 12/31/2021 at 12:48 AM, jajagappa said:

Typically this would be true for shamans who have gained their fetch as well.

And does the Spirit Rune replace the Beast Rune? Like the Plant Rune for Elves? 

Or perhaps even the Man Rune if the Beast Rune is higher. 

(And mischievously... A Telmori Daka Fal Shaman?) 

8 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If you can see a flaw in this (other than the hardy perennial, "we asked your customers, and they want better products for free"), please let me know.

Slap an extra score on Premium hardbacks. If folks choose less costly options you still make the same margins. But many will buy. PhilHibbs will buy!

You can call it the Solidarity Version - and we will all get to feel good about ourselves, too. 

(My credentials here are having bought exactly one printed rpg book in 20 years. You may want a second opinion...)