Nick Underwood

34 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Man, I wish I had any recording equipment and audio editing software

Come to think... There are recording studios where I work. If any French posters want an hours' studio time in Paris, let me know.

On 7/12/2020 at 7:58 AM, Nick Brooke said:

I've attached the 2012 edition of the Gloranthan Songbook to this post. Have fun!

Wow! Any one of those songs should be Legendary, and you have an opera's worth! I was humming on the metro and laughing... Fortunately behind a mask. 

So... Hombadaka Boko didn't make the final cut? Knees bend arm stretch ra ra ra!! 

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

We don't use the "b" word around here. Specifically, not in this thread. Shame on you.

Suitably chastised. I retract and rephrase: "I think a lot of what you are looking for here MJ is not to have PC's kill the bat on day 23, take dominant posession of Argrath on day 24, and force the Red Goddess to accept a one-legged Duck as the new incarnation of Moonson before the end of the season."

(But if you are running that campaign, let me know if there's a seat at the table!)

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Here's the correct details:

Jeez @Jeff, How do you find time for this?

Much appreciated that you do!

On 7/11/2020 at 3:40 PM, MJ Sadique said:

• The gain is immediate ( lex parsimoniae ) and the rule feel flawed (my first idea).
• The gain is immediate and the counter part of this advantage is in the RARE nature of the spirit (what i tend to think now)
• The gain is not immediate because you need time to digest the spirit, so you gain POW at the end of the season without any POW Roll

I think a lot of what you are looking for here MJ is balance. So let's keep in mind an option 4, posted by Akhorahil immediately after I put forward the Super Shaman (and killed him dead!).

On 7/6/2020 at 6:29 PM, Akhôrahil said:

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it

I don't think we have a reference for the clarification, but that would be a solution that restricts any attempt to farm POW from Disease Spirits. With that restraint, do you feel more accepting of your first alternative? (And note: rarity can be quickly undone with a few points of shame Affintiy ability (Disease Spirits are 2 levels more common per level of ability.)

On 7/11/2020 at 3:40 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Second you will need to defeat it, an average spirit have POW 16 and in consequence a Spirit Combat at 85% (RQG - Bestiary CHA4032, p165). The trick (or flaw) is that Disease spirit do not attack your MP, it just infect you and "the disease spirit will try to withdraw to infect a new victim" --how ? the rules at p166 give no clues--. 

Yes. This is all a bit wierd in the rules. For example, if the spirit "withdraw(s) to infect a new victim," rather than possess the victim, how would you cure the disease by spirit combat? Does a new Disease Sprit immedately get created in the victim? With a full 3Dd+ 6 points of POW?  IF so, Malia is indeed an powerful fallen Fertility goddess.

15 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Also aren’t the Torkani and Bachad tribes supposed to be descended from Kitori? 

Ooh, interesting. It seems that this is covered in Wyrm's Footneote #15. Need to make a purchase.

On 7/11/2020 at 3:14 PM, Jeff said:

There is. But I am happy to keep it cryptic.

Excellent. Isn't the best kind of rampant speculation the kind that won't get corrected by an upcoming release!

On 7/11/2020 at 9:56 AM, davecake said:

On 7/8/2020 at 11:04 PM, Nick Underwood said:

Whatsup with them killing Broyan?

That's a good question. King of Sartar, in the CHDP, suggests its due to Broyans betrayal of the City of Wonders, but the CHDP is an in-world source that may well be very biased pr speculative - it's not clear why the Kitori would be against Broyan, as both of them are representing pre-Belintar powers. It's also possible that the demon that kills Broyan isn't representing the KItori themselves.

I also read somewhere - apologies, I never remember where I read these things possibly, here on BRP - that Broyan may have been killed for failing to pay the Shadow Tribute, despite the fact he didn't know he was eligible for taxes. So the Shadow Tribute may be the cause of the the demon's attack, and the section from the Sourcebook that @dumuzid quoted gives us the reason for it's (unexpected) success:

"Among the Kitori, a little bright light was snuffed
out, and a demon that had many sharp mouths was let out
of its skin. It sought vengeance, and fell upon the army
of King Broyan while they slept. The king could not keep
it away, because he had betrayed the City of Wonders,
and the Great King was killed there, with his army."

Further wild speculation: if Broyan were indeed killed for not paying the Shadow Tribute, and this ancient tribute were based on Equal Exchange, what did Broyan receive from the Shadowlands that required repayment...? Could it be the support of Queen Leika who derives her authority from the Black Spear? What promises were extracted from King Colymar when he fled the Pharaoh with the support of the OOO, crossed the Kitori lands, and flung his Argan Argar weapon across the crossline?  What secret oaths do the Anmangarn Clan still utter without understanding in their woods? Is it an accident that the Black Spear returns in the hands of the Argrath?

I was looking for some hints before I tied myself in knots with my own hopeless conspiracy theory!  

Agreed, it's not clear the Kitori were responsible. Thanks. I hadn't considered that readinng.

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... Wouldn't the munchkin shaman take a few levels of Soul Expansion, knowing they're going to use this exploit in the future... 

At least up to POW 24... Maybe a few points higher (obviously, using Pow as the burn stat)

There would defintely be some possibillities for optimisation, that would make Super Shaman less dependent on lucky dice!  

1 hour ago, MJ Sadique said:

I love this kind of answer ! I'm a bit sad I cannot give him a Lama badge (token of appreciation on DeviantArt).

👍👍👍 For Nick, I'm laughing too hard to response today !     a but a splendid counter ! 🤣

Nick Underwood and MJ Sadique walk off into the sunset with arms around shoulders, the sounds of their laughter and joyuful converation echoing through the village « Mais qu'est-ce qu’on s’est bien marrer, hein ? Ta riposte la, mais bluffant ! Tu m'as completement cassé ! D’où tu sors des trucs pareils ? Dis… on prend un verre… ? »

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

15 hours ago, soltakss said:

Maybe you could have toned it down a bit as well. It comes across as aggressive and unpleasant.

😒 yeah, I know ... but I'm a bit in villain mood. Surely because I miss the old war like discussion with Rosen. Ah the Nostalgia of fighting over the rules for days and ... losing pitifully because some rules got a triple Errata : An Errata of Errata of Errata. I miss the 90'...

My sincerest apologies @MJ Sadique. I had chosen not to respond out of concern that that you were one of the younger posters on the forum; one on whom the nuances of careful and polite counter-argument might be wasted. I was also concerned that the excessive desire to be seen to be right could hint at a fragility that was best left unchallenged. I was wrong and I apologise.  Now I understand that you were in fact just adopting a persona in order enjoy the nostalgia for those heady days of futile disagreement. Yes, I too was that obnoxious persona (knocking around the UK fanzine world in the 80's).  Let us continue in that nostalgic vein, with no offence taken on either side, or on our behalf!

So. You reproach my (admittedly totally invalid) proposition for Munchkinning up a Super-Shaman of Death in 22 days with five Objections. There is also much supporting, mulitcoloured, (and emojied) self-congratulation with no direct bearing on the discussion, but I will concentrate on the content of your argument and dismiss the extraneous embellishments as either a misguided attempt to bully a newbie who dared to disagree with you, or to give the casual reader the impression that you were winning a rules discussion you hadn't even understood. 

Objection 1

My claim that the POW increase from defeating a Disease Spririt was 1D3 is incorrect.

On 7/7/2020 at 5:20 PM, Nick Underwood said:

No sure about this cheat but usual Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1

Except, the POW increase from defeating a Disease Spririt is 1D3, as you yourself cite!

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

The rule clearly state in Bestiary / Spirits / Spirit Powers that you "will steal 1D3 POW"

Let us gloss over the indecorum of failing to acknowledge that your contradiction of a poster was mistaken—brooding over such a point wouldn't be in keeping with the fun characters we have chosen to play.

Objection 2

My timeline for increasing the POW of the fetch through capturing the POW of Disease Spirits is untenable, as POW Gains are limited to one per season.

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1 (Average of 1pt) and limited to 1 gain per season

You may be confusing the POW gain from defeating a Disease Spirit with a standard POW Gain roll. 

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

I'm pretty sure we did not read the same rules (RQG p418)... 

You clearly are getting confused with standard POW Gain rolls as that is what p. 418 deals with. The correct references for POW gains from combatting Disease Spirits are RQGB p. 169... Which I believe you know, because you later cited the page to me. (Of course, without mention of your earlier mistake... Oh, what fun to discuss like we are juveniles again! )

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

I don't recall things... I check them ! And sorry pal but you've go all it wrong !

Oh the irony, pal!

It's good that we can call each other "pal". But do look up it's cultural connotations before you get yourself into bother in a London bar.

Objection 3

My assumption that... Actually, I have no idea what this objection is. It's either a total non sequitur, or it is two points conjoined and compressed beyond recognition. 

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

First, The rule clearly state in Bestiary / Spirits / Spirit Powers that you "will steal 1D3 POW" ...and gain POW as if "a POW gain roll had been made." So you CANNOT gain an infinite amount of power from a tiny spirit ! (a bit commun sense man) ! 🧐

You may be saying 'The rule clearly state in Bestiary / Spirits / Spirit Powers that you "will steal 1D3 POW" ...and gain POW as if "a POW gain roll had been made."' So... the normal rules of POW Gain rolls should be applied. I'd respond: as if "a POW gain roll had been made." That is: successfully completed. The conditions under which the roll were made do not apply in this case. (And I'd be right.)

Alternatively, you may be saying 'something, something, something, "So  you CANNOT gain an infinite amount of power from a tiny spirit !" To which I'd reply: you are ABSOLUTELY right! But let's not resort to the dishonesty of attributing some false claim to a poster for the purpose of flambouyantly demolishing it (with added exhortations and emojis). I was reasonably clear to anyone interested in understanding the Munchkinnery I was proposing:

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Discorporate, find Disease Sprit, defeat Disease Spirit, Gain 1D3 POW, capture Disease Spirit in Fetch, command Disease Spirit to attack Shaman, defeat Disease Spirit, gain 1D3 POW... Repeat... (for 16 POW per day?)

You can get an average of 16 POW from a Disease Sprit by capturing, commanding, defeating it until it is all used up! The next day you need to Discorporate, find another Disease Spirit and start again.

Objection 4

Discorporation with the intention to increase shaman POW requires the shaman to be below maximum POW when entering spirit combat with the Disease Spirit.

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Second, As you go hunting don't forget that as you fight you'll lose some MP and you nor your fetch can regenerate MP if discorporate. You also have to sacrifice POW to give to your fetch and as the rule state "A characteristic cannot be increased beyond the species maximum, however, and any points in excess are lost.". Hunting POW for you fetch mean you will have to found a rare spirit and the fight it without having your max POW... you won't die from AGEING but from Chronics diseases or being possessed by a spirit disease 😜😈

An absolutely valid point. (Don't be afraid to say it!) 18 POW would be optimal to capture (up to) an additional 3 POW.  I did point out that it needs some lucky dice. I didn't point out, for reasons of brevity, that there are better ways of capturing Disease Spirits, and you clearly don't need to challenge the big ones!

Objection 5

My described process requires continuous Discorporation throughout.

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

in your case OF EXTREME AGEING when he get back to his body 120 years after his first discorporation...

No it doesn't. Discoporation is only required to capture the Disease Spirit once per day. After capture you can slowly digest the remainder of the Disease Spirit from the comfort of your barn in the mundane plane.

Objection Whatever...

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Third, do you really think that enchantments and spirits abilities are a decoration ? Why need  them if anyone can have a hundreds power-points fetch !? If you want to fight 300 POW Spirit disease go to Dorastor and good luck becoming the best friend of a Shaman Broo of Malia (beware of the night, they do nasty things 😱)

Hmm... You're not even raising a praticality. You're saying it is not in the sprit of the game. That's not really a pertinent objection in a thread about the fun process of finding exploitations that the rules allow - but no-one would want in their game.  I guess it might be relevant if I had said something to suggest that I was a "GrosBill" who came up with a Super-Shaman of Death with fantasies of domineering people in a table top game. But... unfortunately that's no more than another assumption you labellled me with.

And as for sharing some good old nostlagic fun, here are some of my favourites. Oh, you do this sooo much better than me!

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

A MUNCHKIN who doesn't know the rules of the world he live usually DIE

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Go back studies your rules and do never forget the malediction of the Bestiairy "May Hykim and Mikyh Consume and Devour those that would misuse this book."

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

"Critical hit on the teeth, call for the little mouse pal ! " 😬🤐

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

NO and I'm doing this for (h)is own good because everyone will learn more in hardcore mode than a little pony discussion.

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I like having player finding way to be some Munchkins but doing it with Intelligence, without cheating and certainly not the "I think I read somewhere in the rule if I spend 3POW to hum-hack-the-rules I can get a Runic

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Did I give some slap, yes.

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Did I get better with them : clearly.

I clearly had a lot to learn from the Maître. Thank you, for all you have taught me.

So it's been great sharing the nostalgia. But it reminds of just how poor and unrewarding discussions used to be when we were young and foolish enough to think that winning an argument was more important than learning from each other. Let's resolve to continue our conversations in a more constructive way in future.

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

These are more interesting questions!

In case you (or anyone) are in obliging mood?

Kitori are all humans and trolls? No remnants of the race that were neither and both? 

Whatsup with them killing Broyan? Are they a rising power again with the shadow tribute on their mind? Do they still have ties to the OOO? 

Do they have a thing with the Black House of Arkat. TSR hints at a trollish Arkati..

What do they trade? 

Any hints will be most welcome and vastly over-interpreted.

Edit. Typo. 

17 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I personally don't use these rules but Inscribing Spells : For each point of POW you have a focus for one unique spell with strength+1, range+1, or duration +1 without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer (no need for runes or extra).

I remember looking, but not finding, explicit reference in the rules that Sorcerous Inscriptions were reusable in the same way as Enchantments. Is that made clear anywhere? 

The Munchkin context: 500 clan members could chip in a point of POW to create an Inscription for Enhance Int 100 with a few years of duration... Then cast on each of the clan members. 

18 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

No sure about this cheat but usual Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1

Thanks for the reminder. I was aware I might have misremembered, (I thought it too silly to bother checking) but that would not change the calculation: 16 rounds of Spirit Combat per day is as easy as 11.

18 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

and limited to 1 gain per season

I don't recall any indication that is correct for the POW gain from defeating Disease Spirits. The only word I recall from the rules is "immediate." 

18 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I'm sure the Chaman must first get the POW and the sacrifice it for the fetch to gain one

On a superficial reading of page 356, perhaps... But the following makes it clear that "sacrifice" in that passage is meant in the general sense, not the literal. 

"When gaining 1 or more points of POW, a shaman may give this new POW to their fetch, thus increasing the fetch’s POW." p. 358

So... I'm sticking with my 22 hypothetical days for an egregious outcome that has already been gazumped by a rules change. 😁

25 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it.

I feel robbed! But something needed to be done. Thanks for the clarification.

22 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Holy crap! Double for real official in the clarifications. Shaman in the RAW are just totally unmitigated badasses

Yes, the mix of uncapped Fetch POW, adding Fetch and Shaman POW, and the 1D3 POW gain from disease spirits can just gets silly quickly.

Shaman Day 1...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11
POW 12                  POW 11

(Disease Spririts) Affinity 2
    +40% to Command & Control
    Disease Spirits are now Very Common

Shaman Day 2...

Discorporate, find Disease Sprit, defeat Disease Spirit, Gain 1D3 POW, capture Disease Spirit in Fetch, command Disease Spirit to attack Shaman, defeat Disease Spirit, gain 1D3 POW... Repeat... (for 16 POW per day?)

Shaman Day 22...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11 
POW 21                  POW 309
MP 21                     MP 322

Cast Sever Sprit on the Crimson Bat (343 POW vs 300) (not sure of bat's POW...) Retire to grow a fine blue beard.

(This would take some lucky dice to get the ratchet off the ground, but there are ways of playing safe.)

Now... with some added Illumination you could really go wild on those Shamanic Abilitles.... 

24 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where does 22D6 come from?

It was just a joke about munchkinning up an heroic Ancestor to Incarnate. I mean only a dweeb would try to roll up a character that ridiculously overpowered, right?

(BTW if any dweebs do want to try it. It can be achieved in Phil's CharGen sheet by inserting 19 rows between the last stat roll and the stat totals, and then c&p'ing the formulas. I do not know how I know that...) 

13 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

Cast Incarnate Ancestor. Repeat until fumble? 

Ooh. I got a heart from @PhilHibbs!

But when I tried this Phil, the 22D6 POW broke your excellent CharGen sheet !

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's not clear that above-standard Ancestors can be incarnated. Lots and lots of Heortlings have Vingkot and/or Heort among their ancestors

Hmm... If I were of a mind to gainsay my GM, (totally against my every natural inclination) I might claim that this clearly *my* direct Ancestor, generated as a part of my personal background, and not a generic clan Ancestor - why would I gain reputation within my immediate circle from a clan Ancestor that we all share. 

Of course, I expect my GM would agree and wish me luck watching my personal Ancestor from the spirit world while he played him as an npc...

37 pages... Did we get:

Roll Hero Ancestor as a boon. Choose Daka Fal assistant Shaman. Cast Incarnate Ancestor. Repeat until fumble? 

GM may reasonably insist you are dead. But that's just spoil sport. 

7 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

So much better, hmm the Lunar Priestess (of the white moon? Not the red moon, that threatens all with consumption and obliteration).

Seems to me, your Lunar founder is your unifying principle that allows you to balance the disparate elements of your clan. If that tradition continues to exist, Moon could replace Barntar in re-unifying Air and Earth. 

Should we conflate Sedeyna with the horrors of the Red Empire? When the White Moon comes, there will be peace. Perhaps more than we can bear...

On 7/1/2020 at 6:09 AM, John Biles said:

No plowing required, gives fruit every year, also a source of wood for you to some degree.

Reminds me of a story a Skanthi once told me:

I once see a Blini-man with oxen and plough:

-- What you doing? I asks. 

-- Ploughing the land, says he. 

--  And just what would you go ploughing the land for? I asks. 

-- Grow some oats, he tells me. 

-- Our Lady's Afterbirth! Why would you go specially growing oats? 

-- Gotta feed the oxen something. 

-- Feeding Oxen!! What in Ernalda's Garden would you be feeding oxen for? 

And the Bilini-man, he looks me right in the eye, all superior like he never did wear no white shirt, and he says: "Well I'm not going to pull the plough me-self, am I?!" 

Ain't no compr'ending a Bilini-man. 

(Apparently it's funny if you're Skanthi)

(Apparently Skanthi are Cornish too) 

On 7/1/2020 at 12:24 AM, Leingod said:

The way it's described in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is that the plowman "turns the Earth to meet the Air." So, in the Heortling view, you're uniting husband and wife to make the land fertile so that Ernalda's daughters (the crops) can be born and grow

Yes. I'd completely forgotten that story - which is another interpretation full of satisfying meatphor and meaning. And ploughing does, of course, literally aerate the soil. 

On 6/30/2020 at 9:25 PM, Bohemond said:

Another way to read plowing is not as the violent violation of the earth but as a response to the earth goddess 'opening her legs' to receive the male phallus/plow. So one could posit a ritual in which the priest(ess) asks the earth to receive the plow and the goddess responds by blessing the ritual.

And another. Although, doing Dad's work while he's away takes on a dimension I hadn't fully considered.

When a single story is open to so many incompatible interpretations - it's got to be a good story. 

On 7/1/2020 at 12:24 AM, Leingod said:

Also, there may be a plowing ritual in which the plower apologizes for breaking the earth open (the way Orlanthi men apologize for having to cut down Esrola in Earth Season). 

Something has to be happening here. It's an event so full of mythological meaning and the beginning of the agricultural life cycle that ends with the harvest you mention. Simultaneously the renewal of the food, and of the myths that sustain the community. Imagine the first day of ploughing in Sea Season, the ground is only beginning to dry, the mist still in the air.  It's early morning and a strong breeze enlivens the assembeled congregation. The earth lies still beneath her covering of spring grass - a maiden's anticipation. The Lunar priestess of the Glimmerstone clan steps forward with a ritual of unity and beginnings re-made as she repeats the blessings of the wedding night. The plough-women hesitates. Such an auspicious moment. Then she breaks the earth with heavy plough as the oxen begin their slow and easy march. The plough shines in the sillion, the mist gathers on the freshly turned earth, the crowd begin to sing and dance along the furrow at this moment of renewal.

(Hey, that sounds better than getting raped by your son!)

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

To really form a new clan, this is the wyter quest -

Absolutely onboard with the Wyter Quest...

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm also interested in how the extreme diversity of the clan is going to be maintained...

And the Glimmerstone Wyter sounds like it needs to be heavy with moon to balance the diversity and tie all those people together for the serious endeavour of clan making... Oh, wait:

 "Glimmerstone is given in courting a signal of serious intent..."

Glimmer Stone, unifying, balance... huh...? Moon rock wyter of LURV?

On 6/28/2020 at 9:03 PM, Leingod said:

I meant "bloodline" in the sense of "a sub-set of the clan recognizes a shared ancestor and so consider themselves more closely related to each other than to more distant members of the clan," which is basically just adding extra layers to the extended family model of the clan.

I like the similarities that you are finding between the fiction-kin (clan) and the natural-kin (blood), but I'm finding it easier to understand them as two parallel systems that overlap but do not integrate, with each having it's own domain: Fiction-kin is collective - clan, law, morality and responsibility, and a collective mythical history.  Natural kin is more personal, your personal physical and mythical inheritance and fate. It's a separation that seems to be maintained: my clan owe nothing to my grandfather from another clan, but I might have personal responsibility through natural-kin. And if my grandfather was a 7-foot beserker who slayed a bear god, then I'm likely to share some of those qualities, and some of that glory, and some of that shame in a more direct way than I would through fiction-kin.

Interesting that the gods seem not to have a clan or any fiction-kin, and seem to have only the obligations of natural-kin. Interesting too that Argrath loses his clan to fulfil his fate, and returned to claim the throne based on his bloodline, as his clan is forgotten.

Isn't fiction-kin actually in some way a denial, a reappropriation, of natural-kin? Isn't it about transferring allegiances, obligations, a willingess for self-sacrifice, from one set of connections (blood) to a new adopted set of relations (clan)? Isn't this why military units become brothers? And why initiation rites so often include a rebirth into a new family?

(Potentially on the border of being off topic.)