radmonger

26 minutes ago, Darius West said:

As for hermaphrodites, stats tell us that 1 in 2000 people are born intersex,

Intersex conditions are when the different biological markers for sex don't all align; this commonly leads to infertility. A hermaphrodite can take the role of either male or female sex during conception. In the real world, there are no documented cases of this existing in mammals, though it is common in fish and invertebrates[1].

In Orlanthi society, intersex children maybe  get some level of guided choice of either the male of female initiation rites. Like anyone else, they can leave those rites as a nandan or vingan, or even fail in such a way they don't have an accepted gender role.

Interestingly, the biological term _hermaphrodite_  comes from the son/daughter of Aphrodite. And there is Androgeus. So in a mythical world it is very plausible that there are divinely-descended exceptional people who can both father and bear a child. In such rare cases, I could see that they go though both sets of rites.

To complete the logical pairing; none refers to those judged very unlikely to succeed at either rite[2]. They may well be barred from it for their own safety, if nothing else. This includes non-humans.

[1] FYI, some people consider using the term _hermaphrodite_ outdated or offensive when applied to those with intersex conditions.

[2] Temporary damage will normally delay the rites until healing is complete. And with with Heal Wound being able to regenerate limbs, almost all damage is in principle temporary.

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It's actually many years... - Unless you CHA is really low 😛

I don't think the cap matters so much in play, as it does as a justification for why there are relatively few people much more powerful than the typical 21 to 25 year old PCs. So they are the ones going on adventures and solving problems, rather than solely reporting them to their elders and betters who can then deal with them trivially. And also why the route to great personal power is more 'go on a heroquest' than simply 'get older'.

24 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can someone remind me where the detailed description of female initiation is? I remember reading it a couple of months ago but I can't remember if it was a fan post, a Stafford Library piece, etc.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/ernaldan-initiation-rites/

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

See https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/pos/prince-of-sartar/chapter-1-initiation/002-the-uncles/

 

Which is describing the process of _adulthood_ initiation.

There is a fuller essay linked from that I had not seen before, which explains much:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/orlanthi-initiation-rites/

Quote

The common Orlanthi initiation is simultaneously an initiation into manhood and the religion.

Quote

During this narrative the individual chooses the deity that he wishes to follow for the next twelve months. After this point the individual is an initiand, essentially initiated into the culture and religion, but not into a specific selected role.  They are an unformed initiated being able to have some benefits and obliged to perform most of the requirements of cults, societies and families.

Overall there is a 2 year 'apprenticeship' where the candidate chooses what they do in the first year, and the clan elders the second.

The women's rites are similar in this respect; the magic stuff happens first, without it being officially explained beforehand. Then there is multi-year process of processing, integrating and learning to apply what just happened. So failure is front-loaded, like an education system with exams before lessons.

The way I would interpret this in RQ:G rules terms, in the rare case it would come up, is that at initiation you typically learn one or more one-use spells. Over the next few years, you are developing the skills required to make those spell reusable, i.e. getting training in cult skills.

At that point your 'soul is unformed'. Mechanically, that means your rune pool could be fully renewed by worship within more than one cult. For example Orlanth and Yinkin both can renew Identify Scent. So if that is the only spell you learnt, you have the option of staying with the clan, or going for the year in the wilderness that dedicates you fully to Yinkin.

Or of course you could abandon your suggested calling and decide, or be persuaded to, to follow some other path. Sometimes the clan needs a bad warrior more than it needs a good basket weaver...

7 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Here's a subtle thing: they're distinct between initiating into the Orlanthi culture as a masculine adult, and initiating into a cult as an Orlanthi masculine adult.

I'm curious. Is there actually any Chaosium-published material that describes that second initiation that actually makes you an initiate? Or it is pure fan theory?

There is this great, Stafford-written, potentially-playable material steeped in myth and magic. You run it as an adventure, you go off into the hero plane, and everyone learns who they are in play. Then get to the part where you hand out rewards, and you are supposed to say 'err, you get to live and not go mad, I guess?'

Alternatively you start from the standard 21 year old RQ:G PCs, with their 3 points of Rune Magic. Someone asks 'where did I learn this'?. And the answer is 'err I dunno, maybe an owl came from wizard school and you went there to study for your exams?'.

I'm pretty sure that, at least as far as strictly RQ:G is concerned, ordeal-based initiation is an alternative, not a supplement, to 'convince the examiners'. The short form Orlanth writeup in RQ:G has 'initiation requirements: standard'. Which, as per p274, means that the exam-based method form doesn't apply to those 'familiar to the temple hierarchy' or 'with one or both parents as initiates'. Essentially everyone with good standing a clan will be one or the other[1]. So you go straight to the process of learning the spell. Which, per Red Book of Magic p4, means participating in an 'exchange of energy between divine and mortal'. You pay your POW, you get your spell.

There isn't anything in RW:G or the Red Book of Magic that I can find on a quick spin that describes what if feels like to go the process of _learning_ Rune Magic. But I think it has been a general assumption that it is a kind of lesser ritual heroquest, of exactly the kind covered by the ritual of the pots.

So in short, IMG some rural Orlanthi clans sometimes turn up the danger dial a bit on their initiation rituals, making them worthy of running as a full game session, rather than assumed backstory or perhaps a flashback. If you do this, the participants get their first rune spell based on their actions in that scenario. This will normally be a normal spell. But if you have an idea for a plot, it could be pretty much anything you could learn from a 'strange god'. If it is not a myth the clan knows about, it will be one-use, as per the extended rules on one-use spells in Red Book of Magic.

Note that It is possible to survive the ritual ordeal without explicitly passing it, but also without the kind of evident damage that marks you as a non-adult. This makes you a 'lay member' of the clan cult, i.e. a thrall or non-citizen resident. Those who the uncles have insufficient confidence in, probably largely because they know their parents, are steered down this path. And with the 'uncles' setting up  the ritual, it will be a rare chieftain's son who doesn't perform well.

A lay member can also initiate later; such a thing is regarded something like passing your driving test on the 8th attempt. 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

This would creat "Humakt-as-a-subcult", something I doubt we are going to see (again) in RQG. (

Agreed  that was a bad example, Humakt isn't on the canonical list of subcults [1], so you can't learn his magic at a clan temple. Replace with Storm Bull .

You can treat this whole discussion as being about where do (Sartarite) Uroxi come from. The answer does not, in general, start with 'when a mummy and daddy Storm Bull love each other very much'; I don't think Uroxi are much of an ethnic group. Instead, some Orlanthi get called to that path, presumably mostly on the basis of their runes. To me, it would be strange if that process did not start at clan initiation, where the known myths provide such an obvious hook.

I do dislike the idea of a second actual-Orlanth-cult initiation for which there are, at least currently, no myths, nor any explanation of what it actually means socially and politically. 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

This is only a problem if you insist that all the specialists have to be locally grown from the Clan Temple. Which is where your subsequent proposal breaks down for me.

My model is specialists are generally born in the clan, but leave it for a time, mostly to live full-time in a city or military camp. They then return, effectively as a form or retirement. I don't see Sartar, at least as of 1625,  as having the state bureaucracy to say 'having completed your training, you have been assigned as Lawspeaker to this village; here it is on a map'.

As far as I can see, my model fits entirely with the rules as-written, providing you are not unreasonably pedantic about losing all your magic (or even getting attacked by spirits of relation), when transferring from Storm Bull in the context of the clan to Storm Bull in the context of a warband, or whatever. Certainly, what you learn at a temple, you can renew at a shrine, so the other direction unambiguously works.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

City-based doesn't end at the city gates. If your clan regularly sells on the city market, your clan life will extend to those of your clan members pursuing an urban occupation in the city, whether as actual citizens or just as residents from one of the constituent tribes.

I completely agree. There is actually statute from medieval England saying that market towns could not be established too close together; the limit was set at one days travel [2] . So Issaries traders based within 10km of a city can probably visit a city-based temple market weekly. I have trouble accepting that many people routinely commute longer distances. Or if they do, its a big commitment; a full-time pilgrimage, not an extra 10% time commitment. Travelling 10km there and back, and a day at your destination, is already 40%.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

this leads into the (for some people terrible, and hard to deal with) concept of dual initiation, an initiate of Orlanth also initiating into the Cult of Humakt

Certainly getting into split rune pools, and the associated book-keeping as to which casting of a spell comes from which pool, is way more complexity than I would feel comfortable trying to teach to a new player. Give me 'you know this spell;when you cast it this number goers down' anyday.

Whereas any time you try to think about 'what happens over the course of this persons life?', it very often ends up with a story that makes most sense as 'they transferred from worshipping at this temple to that one. This perhaps had magical consequences, but not the kind of crippling ones an early-edition D&D Paladin got when they changed alignment'.  Again, I just don't buy the idea that any large number of people are spending all their times on continual pilgrimage keeping up a schedule of worship at multiple non-local temples.

[1] Maybe Termertain accepted the Lunar argument that ending childhood by initiation into Humakt counted as a war crime? And the KoS version covers the practice before this change?

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_town. Though England in that period was presumably a lot safer to travel than war-torn Sartar, even ignoring the dangerous wild life and actual  monsters.

Perhaps one way to pass initiation is not to focus on how you got out of the pit; maybe Orlanth let you out.  Instead, you could be the one who you healed the guy trapped in the Sex Pit. In the above approach, this grants you the Heal Body spell, via association with Ernalda, and tags you as a potential Nandan.

Or you could pass as a Helering. When you were in the Water Pit, you were fine. Later Orlanth frees you out into the air, and you are happy with that too.

Passing as Yinkin or Odayla are just variants on Storm Bull in the animal pit.

Yelmalio (if he counts as a full Ornalth pantheon member now) goes in the fighting pit, but teams up with allies to defeat those individually stronger than him.

Daka Fal goes in the Strange Gods pits, but submits to judgement by the guardian instead of organising his defeat.

Lightbringers show up in later stages.

Who does that leave?

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Adulthood initiation does not automatically come with cult initiation (not to any other cult than Orlanth, unless something goes wrong).

Having two different things called initiation, one of which makes you an adult, and one an initiate is at the least very confusing. I guess it is one way of reconciling HQ-era material and the RQ:G rules [1].

IMG in an Orlanth clan that practises traditional ordeal-based initiation, there is one clan initiation. If successful, this ends up with a result of you learning any one rune spell that can be learnt at the clan  temple. This includes those from associate cults. In effect you can go though a male clan initiation and end up, as far as the clan is concerned, as a Storm Bull, Kolati, Odaylan, or Nandan, etc. If you trust in the initiation magic, this sorting process is by defintiion accurate[2].

At a guess 'passing', or at least incompletely failing, the sex pit test tags you to Eurmal. Your life, if you stay with the clan, will be as a kind of village idiot, where community leaders have a sacred responsibillity to prevent you doing too much damage. You probably never get to learn a second Rune spell; better hope the joke spell you did learn is funny.

In most cases, a clan initiate with a respected non-Orlanth initiation-assigned deity will stay with the clan, with that deity being something like a star sign in Western culture. Maybe magically and ritually significant, but not necessarily much to do with how they live their life. You could be assigned to Humakt, play that role at sacred time rituals, but still make your living as a farmer, albeit one with a sword.

Alternatively, they might temporarily leave the clan to go join, say, a roving chaos-fighting band, where they can develop their relationship with Storm Bull more deeply. So once they return to the clan, they are the local expert at that, and would get called in for advice in any chaos-related crisis.

City-based Orlanthi generally don't do ordeal-based initiation. They have more strictly-sperated temples, with initiation being an entirely voluntary process after a multi-year apprenticeship. As I understand it, the RQ:G rules as-written currently mostly focus on city-based Orlanthi, like those in Pavis. In a city, an Orlanth temple is just one of many, not the sole social focus of the community. So, for example, going to a second temple only requires an extra 10% of your time and income, not dangerous travel through potentially-hostile territory. You routiinely have to deal with people who are not initiates at your temple without openly regardining them as your inferior.

Coming from a city, you would never call someone a 'Storm Bull' just because they knew one chaos-fighting spell they learnt from a shrine, and saw a Broo once. Doing so is the mark of a rural bumpkin. Storm Bulls are those scary guys who hang out at the Storm Bull temple, and get their beer money mostly from bounties for killing chaos creatures.

But in a clan village, then if there is noone better, they are the one who ends up wearing the Bull mask.

[1] In particular, King of Dragon Pass has an Orlanthi clan full of magic specialists they couldn't possibly support under the RQ:G rules on temple sizes.

[2] The claim that it routinely creates 15-year old child Humakti traumatised to be unable to socialise normally is a vile Lunar slander.

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I consider that the spell "given" by the associated cult is, technically a spell known by your own god. So you use your god runepool as if it was your god's spell.

That would seem to imply that if a Yinkin worshipper learns a Yinkin spell at a Yinkin shrine within an Orlanth cult temple, that does not actually involve any kind of a link with Yinkin; its all Orlanth. The priest dressed up in a cat mask is not dressed up as Yinkin, but as Orlanth wearing a cat mask.

That doesn't seem to me plausible as anyone's perception of what is going on. Orlanth is clearly not a monotheistic cult; if you look at any description of Orlanthi cult practice, like the Prince of Sartar web comic scene with the 'uncles', you see people taking on the roles of multiple gods. The relations Orlanth has with other deities are absolutely key to his mythology and magic. Polytheistic theism is all about personal relations _between_ communities of gods and men, not the abstract exchange of Rune essence between isolated individuals. To a typical male Orlanthi,  Ernalda is surely regarded as a deity to be related to on a personal level, if rarely understood completely. And certainly not merely as an abstract source of some subset of the powers Orlanth wields[1].

[1] though some variant of that is no doubt practiced by some group of strongly western-influenced Storm-descended henotheists somewhere...

On 7/20/2022 at 6:44 AM, Jeff said:

Your Rune point pool represents your connection with THAT deity. If you have a big pool, that represents that you are deeply and intimately connected with that deity. If you join another cult - even an associated cult - that Rune pool does not transfer over to the new cult (except in a very few exceptions which are the exceptions that prove the rule). They are different gods with different magical secrets after all.

This is the thing I still have a problem is. That explanation says that the spells are associated with a deity. But the rules clearly imply that spells come from a cult. And those are not the same thing, because of the cult association rules.

For example, to return to the case where an Orlanthi becomes a full-time Lawspeaker late in life. I don't see that such a person would in any way consider themselves changing religion, rejecting any part of their upbringing, or doing something other than what society expects of them. Naturally, as it became apparent this was going to be their life path, they would first learn some Lhankhor Mhy magic at the shrine in the Orlanth temple.  But, by the rules, when they actually graduate from the wider Orlanth cult to become a  Lhankor Mhy specialist, they not only also lose access to those Orlanth spells available to Lhankhor Mhy by association, they lose access to the Lhankhor Mhy spells they previously knew. With only 2-3 point of rune magic, this might represent almost all the magic they knew.

It would really make a lot more sense to have the interpretation and rules match, where spells come from a deity, and a rune pool comes from a cult, in particular worship at a temple. But spells are not tied to a rune pool; you never know the same spell twice by two different paths. instead all spells can in principle be cast from any pool. It is just that they are one-use if cast from a pool associated with a cult that cannot renew them[1].

So if your local temple switches it's worship to a new god, as in Elmal/Yelmalio, and you stay with it, you keep your rune pool, but may lose reusable access to some spells.

If you switch from Yinkin-as-Orlanth-subcult to Yinkin-as-deep-hunter, making it impossible for you to return to the clan regularly, you do not lose access to any Yinkin secrets, only to the deeper secrets Orlanth does not share with his brother.

Finally, for whatever exceptional cases like Barntar and Asrelia  exist, then have rituals exist that allow the rune pool to maintain its full value when graduating between a specific pair of closely-related cults.

[1] And some spells may be forbidden, in that they detectably corrupt your Rune Pool in some way that will show up at the next Holy Day and cause questions to be asked...

Almsot all published adventures could be tackled by a party based around the bodyguards and companions of a young Irripi Ontor sage. Her diplomatic mission comes from the Great Sister herself; to undertake a Journey to the South.

Thereby demonstrating that Rigsdal definitely, without doubt, is _not_ Orlanth.

If that change had stuck, why do you think that would mean Orlanth _was_ Rigsdal? Apart from the fact they have entirely different runes and natures, if Orlanth is dead, and Rigsdal is Orlanth, then Rigsdal is dead too. So what's the point?

You can imagine an alterative history of Sartar in which Orlanth stayed dead. So many  Orlanth tribal and city temples rededicated themselves to the previously minor deithy of Rigsdal, just as those in Tarsh adopted Barntar a few generations earlier. Much magic would be lost in the process, but over time new shrines would be built, new secrets discovered.

You could describe that process, from a historical persepctiuve, as the Orlanth rune cult becoming the Rigsdal rune cult. But that doesnt mean the Orlanth became Rigadal. It's an acknowledged Gloranthan fact that any diety can have zero, one or many rune cults, in the same way a city can have zero, one or many football teams.

The thing that doesnlt work is to try to found a football team where there is no city.

On 7/20/2022 at 11:01 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I also liked a suggestion in HW that merely being invoked and railed against as an enemy in a religion is enough to pass some spiritual energy towards them, and that this is how purely enemy gods without much in the way of worshipers keep going.

While plenty of people in Glorantha believe so, I suspect the gods don't need worshipers. Plenty of gods preceded humans, and there is little correlation between cosmic significance and number of worshipers. Worship mostly strengthens the worshiper, not the worshiped. 

The thing is, with great strength comes great responsibility. If you have the magical power to affect the climate on the level of a Cloud Call or Bless Crops Rune spell, you had better use that power wisely.

Daga doesn't need a cult; he is the Other of one of Orlanths aspects/ In other words, he is the anthropomorphic description of what happens when priests of Orlanth Thunderous fumble the relevant roll. Every worshiped god has such an Other, because every d100 sometimes rolls 00.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

How would this person be able to pass an identity challenge?

I belive there is Trickster magic for that.

But then I think some versions of the Orlanthi gender list have 'eurmali' at the end. Which presumably represents those who find it funny to sneak into sacred spaces they are not supposed to be in. This usually ends about how you would expect.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I could see the Lunar Empire weaponizing and reinforcing Daga so that the usual Aroka HQ didn't work, just to mess with the Orlanthi.  Watch their crops fail, their animals die of thirst, and their magic deplete.

I don't think that kind of mythic weaponisation would take the form of founding a cult that taught a 'cause drought' spell. You need their lands ravaged this season, not in several generations time. Surely by then they will be good Lunar citizens?

Instead it would be more a matter of a few magical specialsts and hero candidates directly doing whatever  mythic dirty work seemed most tactically useful right now.

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

An initiate of Barntar may become an initiate of Orlanth simply by sacrificing 1 point of POW to establish a link with Orlanth Thunderous. All the initiate’s Rune points with Barntar are added to those of Orlanth, and for that initiate, Barntar becomes effectively a subcult of Orlanth Thunderous.

Which brings us back pretty much back to the original topic. The first sentence there is duplicated under the writeups of Orlanth's other independantly-worshipped kin; Yinkin and Odayla.  The second is not. My reading is that it should be; alternatively there could be a description of what happens instead. As written it seems to be meaningless; by the base rules, almost anyone can so initiate, and so the close mythic connection between those gods apparently counts for nothing.

Note also the sentence under spirits of Reprisal; 'these spirits do not come into action when initiates transfer to an associate cult'.  They don't have that caeveat abput leaving a cult, so unless that sentence is an orphan from some earlier understanding of how things work, transferring between cults must be something distinct from leaving one and joining another.

Fully writing down the rules for initiation into subcults that also have minor independant worship would probaly take a paragraph or two; do you not see the advantages of writing that in one place and referencing it where relevant?

I think the obvious answer is that the initiation ceremony renders them significantly less biologically male. In particular, they can no longer father children. Those sufficiently dedicated to a nandan gender role may be ok with that.

39 minutes ago, Jeff said:

With Ernalda and Asrelia, it is that the Earth religion recognises them as different stages in the same goddess.

You mean like how Barntar is also recongnised to be Orlanth,  Ond so is  Vinga. Irripi Ontor is also Issaries, Than is also Atyar, and Yelmalio is also Yelm? How many gods are there actually that don't have close kin that share some portion of their identity?

As I see it, that kind of in-world mythic justification is the thing that game rules should support and reflect. Rather than the rules declaring a thing as impossible, and then in another part (the cults book) saying nevertheless, it actually happens. Some gods are connected at a deep ernough level that transfer between cults is possible. Sometimes 'possible' means a unknown and dangerous heroquest, sometimes it means talking to the High Priestess. For others, such transfer is genuinely impossible; any attempted heroquest would fail, or break the world[1].

You do bring up a good point that RQ:G has, with ratings in runes, an existing mechanism will affect how reliably you can cast magic associated iin runes you are weak in. If you have little storm or movement in your soul, then you are not going to be suited to Vinga. That seems to me to be sufficient rules.

[1] Some say this has already hapenned.

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Unless you plan to risk yourself and others by heroquesting upon unknown paths and transform yourself.

So now we are getting somewhere. It is indeed possible to magically transfer allegiance between cults; it is just that normally takes experimantal heroquesting. 

But what we also know, from the Ernalda cult writeup you posted above, is that in some cases this magic has been discovered, and is widely available. The Ernalda cult writeup says that an Ernalda priestess can become an Asrelain priestess without starting again as an initiate with a single RP. How does that happen if not by the use of some such magic? They can't all be doing experimental heroquests.

So all thet needs to be decided is in what cases that magic is known, and what are the conditions for casting it. Do the Hrestoli know some variant for ascending between castes? Do the Lunars know a ritual that lets an devout Issaries trader become an equally devout Irrippi Ontor trader? Do some Orlanthi clans know the secret of the Red Widow Ritual, and others do not? 

Maybe in the official canon Chaoisum Glorantha the answer is 'no' to all of the above. Maybe the stuff about Orlanthi widows dying their hair red and becoming Vingans has been oficially decanonised, and never happens.

To me, that just means that magic has been lost, and awaits rediscovery.

39 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

f I m not wrong, there is no issue of gender here, there is the gender "both", you are Ernalda the woman and you are Orlanth the man (in a vingan body)

I don't think that is right; Orlanthi society, per RQ:G, has 4 sexes and 6 genders. With the genders being orlanthi, ernaldan, vingan, nandan, helering and other. One of the sexes (mythically rere) is 'both', but you can't have two genders.

I would take that to mean being an initiate of both Ernalda and Vinga is going to be strictly taboo. Helerings may switch routinely, but they can't be both at the same time.

43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If you had 16 Rune Points to Ernalda, why on earth aren't you an Earth Priestess? That's massive commitment to your cult in any case.

I think the scenario would apply to a Rune Priestess too; if not more so. They can't dedicate that much of their time to both Ernalda and Vinga. So if it is at all possible for an Ernaldan priestess to become a Vingan, or one of the Gors, then you need something other than the current rules. 

Maybe a High Priest level spell Transfer Cult, following the template for Ban? With the effect of moving the Rune Pool of a willing worshipper to an associated cult temple in an approved way. Spells known that are not regainable at the new temple (generally those from associated cults, as association is not transitive) become one-use.  They can now  learn new spells as normal. Thye don;t need to pay tithes or maintai8n links with the old temple.

That then naturally works for Ernalda/Asrelia/Ty Kora Tek, the Lunars, Hrestoli, and so on[1]. Non-PCs who don't matter[1] don't get that spell cast on them. PCs are provided with an opportunity for roleplaying and conflict . In this particular example, there is clearly goping to some level of opposition, out of reluctance to let a well-liked and much-needed Priestess throwing her life away in vengeance,. But she has the myths on her side...

[1] Plus perhaps cases where you move from Orlanthi clan A to clan B thorugh marriage?

[2] and aren't described by the rules, in which it is literally impossible to have 1 or 2 Rune Points[2].

[3] Are there any NPCs in Chaosium supplements with 1 or 2 RPs?

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

You want to learn Ernalda's deeper mysteries - join her cult!

So, you learn many of Ernalda's deeper mysteries, having joining her cult 10 years ago . Then the Lunars kill your children, you swear vengeance, die your hair red, and initiate to Vinga. Both temple wyters and all of the priests approve of your decision, and so do not inflict any penalty. You stay part of the clan, but from now on you go to the Orlanth temple. You spend no more time there than anyone else, and don't pay a double tithe.  Do you then forget all those mysteries? 16 points of Ernalda magic is always going to be more useful than 1 point of Orlanth magic, even in combat, so why did it ever seem to make sense for you to do this?

Surely you now worship Vinga with Ernalda as an associate? By the rules, worshiping at an Orlanth temple with an Ernalda shrine[1] will refill a pure Ernaldan's Rune Pool.  So why would it not work for you?

It is just that you have knowledge of secrets you wouldn't have been abler to learn if you hadn't had the history you did, hadn't birthed and buried a child.  The rule about CHA capping the number of Rune spells you can know organically provides a mechanism by which if you continue to follow this path for more than a few years, you will gradually start to forget what you once knew. 

Or is it that the 'few exceptions' include all cases where there exists a myth or cultural expectation that this is a thing you can do? In other words, Orlanth and Ernalda, all cults closely associated with them like Asrelia, Yinkin and Odayla, cults with direct Lunar equivalents like Humakt and Issaries, and probably every other case where a player character might actually want to change cults for roleplaying reasons? So the baseline rules on changing cults only apply to something essentially no-one[2] in Glorantha ever actually voluntarily[3] does?

[1] are there any in Dragon Pass that don't have such a shrine?

[2] ok, Arkat. But note that when Arkat initiated to Kygor Litor, he did so as a mistress race troll, not a trollkin. 

[3] they do seem like they would work well enough for people captured as slaves and forced into worship. 

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't quite see why rune point pools should be transferable. It is not like you can yank your soul investment away from the greater soul of Orlanth and shove it over to Lhankor Mhy. And why should you?

That logic would imply that magic from every distinct mythical figure needs its own rune pool. So a starting Orlanthi character could have three Rune Pools; one containing only Dark Walk, one containing only Heal Body, and one containing only Bear's Strength. So I am going to assume that logic is wrong, if only based on the available space in the character sheet.

Orlanth, or Orlanthi society, approves of Orlanthi becoming Lawspeakers. It is not like converting from Reform Judaism to Orthodox, and more like becoming a Justice of the Peace[1]. Ideally rules should capture that distinction, lead GMs into running things the right way.

[1] A thing in real-world common-law countries where the lowest level of magistrate or judge is recruited from the general community and given legal training, rather being a lawyer all their life.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What do you need differently from the rules ?

Explicit clarification that in such cases, you do not end up with a split rune pool, because every spell you know can be renewed at a temple of Orlanth. And that consequently, you only pay 10% of time and income, not 20%, because you are only actually attending that single temple.

In particular, it would be nice if the cult write-ups that supported such things could just refer back to the general-case rules for cult association and sub-cult membership. Rather than having to spend much of the write-up spelling out up new cult-specific rules, as is the case with the current Yinkin and Odayla write-ups in RQ:G.