radmonger

7 hours ago, davecake said:

pretty much nothing in terms of useful combat magic) for the (mostly light cavalry) warriors who are supposed to worship him

Yelmalio is actually an pretty good god for _light_ cavalry; it's in the name. In the RQ:G spell list, catseye and command hawk are unique spells that directly allow them to do their primary job in an ancient army: scouting.

Polaris is probably better classified as mounted artillery; Yelorna is good at both roles.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Using Cults of Prax, Appendix C, you'll see that Yelmalio and Waha membership is nearly identical. The more up to date figures differ slightly. Yelmalio is also one of the inter-tribal cults.

Yeah, that's always been pretty weird, given that:

• the Waha writeup in the same book implies essentially all male nomads are members
•  the Yelmalio writeup makes no concession to nomadic members. It is all about settled farmers who organise their own defense.  So for initiate membership, you must normally have been born within temple-owned lands.

I guess the synthesis is something like Waha, by default, provides the overt social structure and hierarchy of the clan; who is Khan, who leads the raid, who marries the Eiritha priestess's daughter (who owns the most herd animals). There have always been hierarchies  parallel to this, in the form of magical secret societies. Anyone with ambition for advancement within the tribe joins one or more of these, to learn the secret magic that will give them an edge on the next raid, or when choosing the new Khan. Magic gained in this way is doubly useful for being rare; you are not just someone who can see in the dark, you are the _only person in the fight_ who can see in the dark.

Yelmalio has long been one of those entities underlying some of those magical societies. In those tribes with 1-2% membership figures, he still is. As Jeff suggested in another thread, if you are a male nomad with a Fire soul, his way is the path you will find easiest to walk.

Perhaps it was the founding of New Pavis, and in particular the opening of the Sun Dome temple there, that changed things for the impalas nearby. If you are on the out with the current clan hierarchy,no need to go on some dangerous shamanic vision quest ordeal. Instead, you just show up at the Yelmalio temple and sign on as a mercenary. Two short years of guarding caravans or whatever, and you get full access to the good stuff. A vrok hawk familiar, light and vision magic, and you are generally going to be the ambusher, rarely the ambushed. Which to an impala rider is pretty much the entirety of the fight.

Of course, this new way of life changes you. You become used to following orders, and showing up at the temple every Fireday for drill and worship. When the current Khan proposes migrating away from grazing lands that have easy access to the temple, you are not pleased. And you find your view has a lot of supporters.

Maybe it's time for a new Khan?

23 minutes ago, Eff said:

And of course, a cult like Teelo Norri is so difficult to place in an agentic mode that I've characterized it as "not for play", which is apparently contrary to the beliefs of the designers about what cults are appropriate to play. So maybe thinking in these terms is just inappropriate generally for Runequest, hahaha!

Even without an official writeup, the three words 'heroic social worker' are clearly going to lead to a cult in which both the people in it, and the players of those pleople are satisfied with what they can do and how. They are the best at what they do, and what they do is actually pretty nice.

Plenty of cults give you good healing magic, noone else has 'speak to the mad', 'self sacrifice', 'create obligation' or whatever other rune spells a social worker could dream about. One distinction made by some anthropologists is that a cult is a religious organistion typically joined by adults, as opoosed to one you are born into. Those anthropologists are sadly silent on what a _rune cult_ is. But it is clear that Tello Norri is going to be a game-world organisation some adults would choose to join in-world.

The cults that people complain about are those that don't have that kind of hook. Yelmalio as currently written up in RQ:G is just a spell list and a sentence about 'templar mercenaries' that don't really line up together in any obvious way.

The longer RQ:3 and earlier writeups do work better. The thing is, they only really apply to one mode of Yelmalio worship; that by communities of farmers who organise their own defence. There the hook is simple; if you come from Sun County, or one of the similar communities, you are a Yelmalian. It's a _religion_, not a _cult_; you were born into it. You learn to fight with a spear, or not at all.

But they are largely silent about the other 3 known types of Yelmalio worshippers; elves, nomads, and Orlanthi. 

Elves you can probably see how things works, given how important light is to plants; they are plant tenders by day, forest defenders by night. But amongst horse and animal nomads, and Theyalan hill barbarians, Yelmalio is not that kind of dominant religion. But neither does it have any kind of obvious hook that would attract a subset of people by preference or vocation.  Is it more like an ethnicity? Or is there actually some social role that leads to someone born to Orlanthi and Ernaldan parents ending up Yelmalian?

Maybe the answer exists on a forum post somewhere, but I've not seen it.

I'll give an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Perhaps amongst animal nomads, Yelmalio is the cult for those who did not grow up on bisonback. As the god of riding, he lets foreigners and captives adopted into the clan keep up with the majority who have been riding since they were 8. Such people, being of lower status and expected to be grateful for tribal membership at all,  normally get assigned the job of night watchman over the herds. Meanwhile the Waha braves are mostly off trying to csapture new herds for them to guard.

It's not just Kuschile Archery; as far as I can see all the other RQ2 legacy cult-specific skills are a bit of a rules wart that don't really fit with the RQ:G model of a short list of universal skills. 

What would probably work better is to treat them as _cult secrets_, using the template:

If you know _a secret_, normally taught at _cult rank_,  then you may substiutute _this_ for _that skill_ under _these circumstances_.

So:

- if you know the secret of Kushcile Archery, you may substitute Yelmalio Cult Lore for Riding when using a bow from horseback.

- if you know the secret of the Peaceful Cut, then you may substitute Waha Cult Lore for Bargain when dealing with spirits killed under the terms of the Survival Covenant.

- if you know the secret of Sense Chaos, then you may use the passion Hate Chaos to replace Scan or Search when Chaos is suspected.

- if you know the secret of Dormal's Opening, then you may use the skill Shiphandling on open waters.

I think that scales a lot better to having that kind of as unique and useful heroquest rewards, wihtout ending up with a character sheet with a dozen such skills all at 15 to 25%...

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Or it's one of those things that's common enough, but still gets commented on as if it's special.

 

Yes, if there was a Humakti called Aijage Smiter of Foes, that would hardly imply that all other Humakti were pacifists, and he was the one wierdo religious nutter who thought fighting enemies was a good idea.

The Humakti clearly regard foe-smiting as heroic and praiseworthy. It's a thing they culturally aspire to do. How often they succeed will vary, both between individuals in a group, and between different groups. In the Household of Death, no doubt the average member has smitten an impressive number of Lunar foes. But some other Humakti could easily go a season without killing anyone.

20 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Back to your alleged false dichotomy however, I would also point out that in your model it would not be the morokanths doing the planting, it would be their severely intellectually disabled workforce that would be performing the task you are referring to.  Does this still sound plausible to you?

The thing you regard as impossible, even given magic, does literally happen in the real world:

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2017/10/are-zombies-real

I see herd men as similar to the Haitian 'zombies', those unfortunate individuals who have lost their personalities, memories and volition to drugs and ritual torture. But such a zombie is still smarter than a smart animal, a raven or pig. So they understand, and may speak, simple language. They would need minimal training, and maybe a  Command Rune spell or two, to do any straightforward task. And they have a useful working life of at least a decade, maybe two. So a week, or a months, training is a minor overhead. Some herd men are even adequate crafters and fighters, when a Morokanth does the thinking part of the job.

If you prefer a model of herd men where they are vertical cattle, then so be it. But I don't think you can justify that in terms of real-world physical anthropology. Humans can't eat grass, tapirs can't survive in a full desert, humans aren't a viable food species. That leaves a _lot_ of heavy lifting for magic to do. And Prax and the Wastes is, for Glorantha, notably a low-magic environment, with at least one area where magic doesn't work at all.

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

In summation:

1/   Morokanth do not plant crops, they are nomads.

This is a false dichotomy. Many real world nomadic hunter gatherers plant crops; they merely do not tend them.  Those hunter-gatherers, using no metal tools, keep non-physically active elders around for the sake of their practical and cultural knowledge. Training the young and fit how to dig when and where Grandmother tells them is a problem real-world societies solve without metals or magic.

With the even longer cultural memories allowed by summon ancestor Rune magic, you know where great-Grandfather scattered some seeds, and so where an apparently barren landscape has water and roots available for the digging. You don't need to harvest and store food in bulk if you are the one who knows where to dig.

Fun fact: real-world tapirs actually do this, except minus the Rune magic and the digging. Tapirs are literally rain forest creatures that can survive partial ecosystem collapse by  spreading the seeds of the plants they like to eat. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250054520_Feeding_habit_of_the_Brazilian_tapir_Tapirus_terrestris_Perissodactyla_Tapiridae_in_a_vegetation_transition_zone_in_south-eastern_Brazil

YGWV, but to me, that resonates with the idea of Prax's Green Age, when a Morokanth could once effortlessly feed themselves on fruit and seeds. But now things are different. Asrelia's bounty has retreated beneath the surface, and only those with thumbs can access it. Without adopting the Covenant, they would not survive.

But maybe one day, things will be as they were, and they will never have to suffer the foul taste of meat again...

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

 

The fact is, that using herd men to gather grass for Morokanths is not a sustainable calorie model using physical anthropology analysis based on tapirs and human physiology.

I don't see how this can be true. Humans gathering food for other humans to eat is a sustainable calorie model; it's how any society that has less than 100% of people working in agriculture works. What changes if the 'other people' lack thumbs?

Humans can live in deserts that support no other large mammals by being smart, having language and culture, and using tools. One key to survival in a desert or semi-desert is to dig for water and edible roots:

https://survivial-training.wonderhowto.com/how-to/dig-for-water-desert-190196/

Which herd men can do, and Morokanth can't. But if Morokanth know _where_ to dig, and how to make a digging stick, and herd men don't, then you have the basis for mutual dependency. A human brain uses roughly 300 calories a day; a herd man brain presumably a small fraction of that.  So 10 herd men can support themselves and their morokanth, who is literally the brains of the operation, indefinitely. 

Throw in some limited ritual meat-eating to fit in with the rest of the survival covenant, and hope it doesn't give you _too_ bad indigestion.

Whereas if the herd men were a primary calorie source, they would be gone in a season. Living off a cattle herd only works because cattle grow to a weight of ~175 Kg in less than 2 years. 

On 10/24/2021 at 1:24 PM, DucksMustDie said:

Thanks Martin, that's what I was looking for 🙂 Great work (y). In my game, there's a village that needs to be saved, and Yelmalio is the right guy for the job

Humakt saves the village. He walks away and never comes back.

Orlanth saves the village; he agrees to stop raiding it if you acknowledge him as Rex.

Yanafal Tarnils saves the village. There are no catches, what makes you think there would be?

Eurmal saves the village, unless it would be funnier if they didn't,

Storm Bull saves the village, if and only if the problem it is facing is being wiped from existence by chaos.  If not, then the problem becomes how to save the village from Storm Bull.

Yelmalio saves the village, and then you have to show up for militia drill every Fireday and do what he says.

Elmal saves the village, and then hands it back to some guy who somehow went missing when things got tough. Except there are few Elmali these days, and those that remain don't run villages.

Ernalda saves the village, by working out which of the above is the best option.

20 hours ago, Jeff said:

. And as it is RuneQuest, I am now operating with a system where these numbers actually really matter and interact with the rules. And finally, I have written the full Cults book where I had to define and work out over 100 cults and how they fit together,. 

I think the way I would interpret things is that if you wrote out RQ character sheets for everyone in Sartar, not many would have 'initiate of Redalda' written on them. Those few who did would be full-time horse breeders, foreign mercenaries (from Saird?),  or specialists employed by a cavalry company. 

But there would be rather a lot of 16-25 year old normally-initiated Ernaldan's who's best skill was _ride_ and first point of Rune magic was _Speak to Horse_, taken using the RQ associated cults rules. Unlike Vingans, their default role in mass combat would be as mobile auxiliaries, scouts, and messengers. Avoiding one of the traditional problems with cavalry scouts, they would feel not the slightest temptation to engage in a fair fight when running away was an option.

If you talked to them, they would talk a lot about horses, and they would know all the stories of Redalda rider. But they don't have any of the game mechanical consequences associated with being full initiates of any hypothetical long-form RQ:G Redalda cult writeup. There are rune spell's they can't cast, training they can't get, and so on.

If that's so, an open question is whether there is still, in 1625, a minor temple to Redalda at RuneGate, as there was at the time of Sartar KoH. Was it destroyed in the fighting? If not, what is it? A relic of the time when the now-Yelmalians mostly fought from horseback? A training school for scouts and couriers? Is that going to be magically and economically sustainable for newly-independent Sartar? Or was it only ever viable due to Lunar subsidies during the occupation?

In RQ:G rules as written, there are 4 main resolution systems:

1. skills: D100 roll for success/failure level, with option to augment with other skills, runes or passions.

2. chases: as above, plus use opposed rolls and keep track of relative position over multiple rounds

3. spirit combat: as above, plus the tracking of relative position becomes a formal 'mp' number derived from character, with rolled damage done to it.

4. melee combat: as above, but hp instead of mp, and add hit locations, armour points, strike ranks, specific consequences for location-specific damage, and additional rules for situational skill modifiers and the interaction of pairs of opposing skills (i.e.how dodge is different from parry).

Magic can affect any of those resolution system by modifying any of the numbers involved.

2 is new to RQ:G, and 3 is a step up in detail over the spirit combat systems in previous editions (i.e. a character now has a specific spirit combat damage bonus). Unlike Hero Wars-derived systems, the conflict type should always be clear from the nature of what is going on. For good or bad, it is not really up to GM discretion.

I don't really like the chase system, and the full melee system would very likely seem weird to use for anything else.

But spirit combat seems like it could be generalized to add a level of detail to particularly critical or long-term social conflicts.

What you would need would be:

- a _social points_ (sp) characteristic derived from primarily from CHA

- a _social damage bonus_ derived from CHA and INT.

- a table of how much damage various improvised social weapons (a cutting word, a deadly truth) could do

- another table of what levels of social armour commonly exist.

- rules for recovering sp, and the consequences of your sp reaching zero (an inability to participate in social interactions, perhaps corresponding to formal exile, impoverishment or some similar status)

This ends up pretty similar to the system from Company of the Dragon, but with a bit more RQ-style mechanics, and so perhaps a bit less GM judgement required.

If you reverse engineered the extended conflict rules from HW/HW/QW back to RQ, they would look something like a hit location table.

Quote

 

20: clan chief : 16 hp, 8 pts armour unless *plot spoiler*. Relevant skills/passions for opposed rolls: ... 

16:19: inner ring: 14 hp, ...

Damage could be on sliding scale from a plausible argument doing say 1d4 damage up to overwhelming magical proof at 1d20, with bonuses for magic and characteristics.

The key mechanical point is you are making a sequence of opposed roles where you can have both incremental progress and plausible partial victories that have ongoing consequences.

For example, you are trying to persuade the clan to go to war with local trolls. The opposing roll is mostly loyalty  *clan*; you need to persuade them that such a war is not going to end badly for the clan. You only manage to win over  one inner ring member. But, they have enough sway to get you assigned to go investigate the trolls actions as official clan business, leading into the next scenario.

If that would be end up as a good game is an open question...

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

I the problem with RQG is that only combat has hit points.

 

Wheras the problem with HQ/QW is that everyone always has 5 hit points...

Slightly more on topic, I think Trowjang and Caladraland seem to be the canonical homes of feminine fire as a cultural default.

On 9/22/2021 at 6:56 PM, Alex said:

Not entirely sure I'm following your thread here.  You're saying that if a child is born outside of marriage, or inside the wrong type of marriage, they won't be able to do any of those things?

Probably not as well as Jar-Eel. 

Mythic legitimacy in the sense I am talking about is not a binary yes/no,  a failing you might lack. But a positive quality that you can never have too much of. At the Sartar Kingdom level,the whole saga of Temertain, Kallyr and Argrath is founded on that kind of legitimacy, demonstrated by success at a magical test; lighting the flame of Sartar.

As a special case, an infant dropped off at the doorstep of a stickpicker by a mysterious stranger has one of the highest degrees of mythic legitimacy. Topped only perhaps by one found floating down a river in a cradle...

On 9/21/2021 at 4:47 PM, Alex said:

I'm not sure what 'legitimacy' means for the Orlanthi, much less 'mythically' so.

The usual thing; speaking eloquently, winning battles, ruling well.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sartarites in general don't worship the sun

_Orlanthi_ rarely worship solar powers. But In 1625 politics, as I understand it, Yelmalians are Sartarite, but not Orlanthi. 

The few Orlanthi who do worship any solar power follow Elmal. Which any even slightly cynical Lhankhor Mhy scholar will tell you is is the name Yelmalio uses when he pledges loyalty to Orlanth Rex. 

The relation between names, mythology, magic, power and politics is a closed circle.

On 5/28/2019 at 5:57 PM, Alex said:

 If the woman is a hardcore active Vingan, then the patrilineal, patrilocal form might suit them rather well.  "OK, I've done the 'hard labour', it's over to you and his 'aunties', pops!  Back at the end of the currently prevailing emergency conditions.  Bye-ee!"

I suspect in that case, for the child to be considered entirely mythically legitimate, ideally you'd be using Nandan rune magic to have the wife do that labour.

Having the foresight and resources to employ magical specialists to meet those ritual preconditions is what separates the nobility from the stickpickers. Which is largely why tribal kingships tend to end up in the hands of the same few bloodlines...

The real answer lies in Admiralty Law, in particular the judgement of case of Lord Coleridge on the case of Salt Union v. Wood:

Quote

I cannot conceive anything more likely to lead to confusion and difficulty than if we were to give a construction to the word “seagoing,” which would involve the magistrates entertaining a variety of considerations - such as whether the ship might go to sea, or might be sent to sea, or was capable of going to sea - and would involve their deciding whether those conditions precedent to the exercise of their jurisdiction were made out. It is a simple proposition to hold that a sea-going ship means a ship which does go to sea.

Dormal's ship did go to sea, and did not suffer disaster. Therefor she was a sea-going ship, and so not subject to the Closing. 

All that is necessary to repeat the trick is a simple ritual to establish the identification between your vessel and Dormal's Ship. Of course, failure to successfully establish that connection will leave you at sea in a vessel that is not, in fact, a sea-going ship. The Closing will apply, and disaster will strike.

Fonritans aren't Orlanthi, but then neither are Lunars.

Any clans or tribes directly threatened by Fonritians, or who just want to raid them, are absolutely going to make the claim that Ompalam is chaotic. Then invoke 'I fought We Won' as a reason to ally with them and help.

Any groups that want friendly relations with Fonritians, or to do anything other than send all their fighters hundreds of miles away to help some local chieftain get rich will be arguing the opposite.

Donander is a widespread god of entertainer's and wandering minstrels.

Non-canon writeup:

http://www.kerofin.demon.co.uk/cults/donandar.htm

Harana Ilor is his parent, and the Celestial Court Goddess of harmony and musicianship. As such is not normally worshipped; she is too big and abstract to tie down to any simple social role or occupation. So it seems perfect for a unusual PC who is cursed or God-touched, with unique magic that noone expects or can duplicate.

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'm not convinced Illumination was needed any more than illumination or a mystical view is needed for science in our own world.  

None of the scientists I know have ever suffered from a spirit of retribution. 

To quote wikipedia:

Quote

The Enlightenment was a late 17th- and 18th-century intellectual movement emphasizing reason, individualism, skepticism, and science. Enlightenment thinking helped give rise to deism, which is the belief that God exists, but does not interact supernaturally with the universe.

In Glorantha, the word 'supernatural' of course needs to be read narrowly as excluding natural magic.