radmonger

44 minutes ago, Super Thunder Bros. said:

Do you run any kind of ritual/vision/Heroquest for cult confirmation?

Not normally, if only because it is impractical for me to run that many solo sessions. Note that by the rules as far back as RQ2, cult initiation only requires a test for outsiders to the cult. And so, as I understand and play it, that means that for non-exiled members of a clan that has a tribal or federation treaty with a temple to that cult, confirmation is automatic,  whether in or before play.

In my interpretation/house rules a ritual visit to the other side is required to gain any Rune Spell. Normally the stakes are minimal, so repeated attempts are possible. The standard period of 5 days to gain a Rune spell can perhaps be broken down to:

day 1. blind attempt, staking all MP

day 2: recuperate MP, talk over with instructor what they did wrong

day 3. second attempt, again staking all MP.

day 4+: repeat previous two days until successful or one party gives up.

Because eventual success is normally guaranteed, unless there is extreme tine or resource pressure, it doesn't need to be rolled for, let alone played out. But if it makes logistic and thematic sense for your campaign to run cameos like that, then do so.

In any case, it is useful to establish as a thing that happens, if only so you can disrupt it when a Lunar heroquester shows up half way through:

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Something else – when Jar-eel and her followers disrupt Kallyr’s Lightbringers Quest, people wake up to the realization that it is possible to do the same to other heroquests. Common paths are opposed or blocked. Repetition of the familiar becomes more dangerous than experimental paths. 

In that period,  a surprisingly large number of key tribal leaders awoke from their wedding celebrations to find out they were married to a disciple of Jar Eel. Some even survived he experience.

Canonically, the initiation process takes two years, nominally from age 16 to 18. Actual character age varies, and is commonly younger, but if you are going to play through it there are obvious reasons for picking the high end. At the end of it, a PC has a cult, 3 rune spells and full occupational and cult skills. But they lack the 150 points of personal skill bonus granted by step 7 of the character creation process.

There are no official rules for starting younger, as in Six Seasons in Sartar. My house rules are

• Initiation starts with the adulthood ordeal, and ends with cult confirmation. Some people use the word initiation interchangeably for all three; I find that confusing.
• PCs gain access to their first Rune Spell in the first downtime after the adulthood ordeal  (or arguably during it).
• The first Rune Spell learnt should normally be one available to the clan temple they underwent the adulthood ordeal at; exceptions are rare omens indicating plot.
• a PC is confirmed into a cult only when they have learnt a combination of spells that are only taught by that cult. Due to the existence of associated cults, this can be the third spell learnt, or later. 

Examples:

• Korstaval learns Lightning immediately after his adulthood rite. He is immediately confirmed as an initiate of Orlanth Adventerous.
• Serenkos starts with Analyse Magic. According to the treaties that established the tribal confederation, the clan has the right to send one teenager from each age cohort to the Lhankhor Mhy temple in Jonstown for free cult training. Serenkos is selected for this role. He spends several seasons there over the two year period, learning Worship Lhankhor Mhy, and gaining Knowledge and Truespeak.
• Venarg starts with Heal Body, and then gains Shield, the pair of spells associated with both Ernalda and Orlanth. They confirm themselves as an Ernalda initiate when they gain Command Snake.
• Sarovulf starts with Wolf's Head, a spell from the clan's traditional enemy, the Telmori wolf people. The last time this happened, 5 generations ago, the unfortunate individual was immediately exiled. A PC heading down this path is at risk of the same fate, unless they abandon heir heritage, or can reconcile it with loyalty to the clan.

Traditionalist Sartarite clans, including the Haraborn, divide the teenagers by apparent biological sex and have them undergo either the Orlanthi or Ernaldan adulthood ordeal correspondingly. However, the association between Orlanth and Ernalda allows effectively transferring between the cults before full adulthood; this corresponds to the Vingan and Nandan gender-based subcults.

In Nochet, the capital of Esrolia, everyone of all sexes initiates at the earth temple. So all Orlanthi initiated in Nochet are first and foremost the husband-protectors of Ernalda, of equal status with her other husbands.

So logically, there are likely to be southern clans, influenced by Esrolian practices, who initiate everyone according to the Ernaldan rites, but with a strong bias towards Orlanth as the sole husband-protector. Traditionalist clans may point out this results in rather fewer Humakti, Storm Bulls and Eurmali. But, for obvious reasons,  they are unbothered by that.

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

I imagine they have separate clans with the human clans worshipping Argan Argar and Ernalda and the Troll Clans worshipping Argan Argar and Kyger Litor. 

Would that imply the existence of an Argan Rex subcult that bestows the tribal leadership? Or is it less structured?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Bronze Age magic is not really about belief or even piety, it works on the principle "do ut des". The sacrifices are given to the deity in the expectation that the deity either offers help or abstains from causing undue damage.

The word _belief_ is a bit ambiguous'; I meant it as _justified expectation_, not _faith_. You might get up early on a winter  morning in the belief that the sun will rise, a bus will arrive, and that you make it to the office in time. If your beliefs were different, you would not do that. 

A Gloranthan believes in their god in the same sense a New Yorker believes in the subway.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

have yet to see evidence for temple wyters or cult wyters

Second scenario in starter box?

More generally, the temple size rules strongly suggest that magic is normally retained locally, not transmitted via the god to distant lands where it is needed more.  There is no provision for a god to say 'this is a small. but strategically important temple, better make sure it gets all the good stuff'.

23 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And in that case, back to my previous point, I think a [non priest but with about the same "runic abilities" ] occupation may be defined for players who want to play the "actual priest" but free from any/a lot of the actual priest's duties.

I am not sure how explicit the rules are on this point, but as I play it, a Rune Priest is locked into the priest occupation. 

For a God Talker or Rune Lord, noble is possible for noble gods, warrior for martial ones, hunter for hunting gods, and so forth.

Having a matching occupation will naturally fulfill cult obligation so long as you have 90% downtime in your campaign. And if half of your adventures serve community goals, 80% downtime works, and so forth.

Cult allied spirits go to only the 'most stalwart and loyal', which would usually be a Rune Priest, but maybe your guy is the best candidate they have? All the other limitations of being a God Talker rather than a Rune Priest are community-focused, like not being able to initiate or exile people.

The gap in the rules is that it doesn't say how things work for a shaman. As I play it, a shaman will normally have one of two occupations. They can be a priest, providing magic to the community. Or they can be a noble, supported by the community to lead and deal with external threats.

In the Argrath era, you also see shamanic military units, and so warriors. It may also be possible for a shaman to survive as a hunter, working independently to protect the community without its support, or perhaps even knowledge.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

With most deities, sacrifice (not prayer) adds to their power

IMG sacrifice adds to the power of the cult, not the god. More people who have sacrificed for more rune magic is a more powerful influence on the world; a stronger army, a more productive economy, and more informed decision makers. Which can support more and larger temples with more and larger wyters, who hand out more magic.

Apart from that effect, the 'power' of a god has the same relationship to the power of a cult as it does in the real world. When people believe something, they act on that belief. This can change the world.

People who believe in the Great Compromise don't study, or quest, for the magic that would break it. Except, of course, as a deterrent, retaliation or preemptive strike on what someone else is doing.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, how is gallivanting throughout Prax going to be (I would add, 'legitimately') for, say, a newly ordained Priestess of the Nochet Ernalda Temple??? (

The canonical example here is Samastina, who left Nochet to consult with Cragspider, and later got tangled up with Broyan and eventually became Queen.

I'd agree some explicit guidance would be nice. there is a lot of room to expand on the rules in the 'Between Adventures', and in particular make it clear how that relates to cult obligations. But it seems straightforward that Ernalda is the goddess of Esrolian nobility. Samastina would have profession noble. Going on ritual quests of matter of national importance is the job of nobility. So all her adventures counted as cult business.

If she had instead ran away to be a sailor, she would have been in dereliction of her duty, and might have suffered from spirits of retribution until such time as she either reconciled or left the cult.

If she had instead not been a noble, but a priest, then things would have been much more difficult for her, and she would have been abandoning cult obligations by running off without the consent of her family Grandmother. So a GM running a campaign in which that was true, but who wanted her adventures to happen, would have to have her grandmother decide it was official Family business.

There is a profession for full-time murder-hobos, the bandit. Orlanth Adventerous is perhaps unusual in playable cults in that it would consider that acceptable behavior, providing the PC spared non-combatants. took captives, had no dealings with slavers and demanded only the customary ransom. This is abstracted as the tithe cult members must pay, even if they have that profession.

I do suspect there is a gap in the rules if you look at the shaman and profession rules. Vishi is no longer an apprentice shaman, serving a master. But unlike an actual shaman priest, he also does not have profession priest. He does not make his living by selling spells, either at full rate, or at the customary discount implied by being a member of a community.

Economically, Vishi has profession warrior; he is part of Argrath's personal retinue. It's been canon since White Bear and Red Moon that raising units of professional magicians (warriors as opposed to nobles or priests) was one of Argrath's big innovations.

Now professions mostly matter for character generation, but they are used in downtime. So a new profession like 'war mage' or some such might more accurately reflect his status.

And of course downtime matter for cult obligations, in that if you have an occupation that reflects the cult/community goals, you are unlikely to fail to meet them. An Issaries merchant spends his time buying and selling stuff, with a certain cult-obliged level of generosity and fairness. Issaries is pleased, and does not send any spirit of retribution.

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

ow this might work is increased Rightness gains per caste mastered (instead of 1, you might get 2-4) but the downside would also be larger.

 

That makes altogether too much sense for this thread; they are men of all castes, not none.

To make up for that blunder, have the theory that the cults of Humakt and Yelmalio are descended from, or influenced by the Horali caste. And so their gift/geas system is more or less mechanically identical to the Rightness blessings that Horali receive.

So a Horal caste cult writeup would only have initiate status, and no rune magic. Just a big table of powers and behavioral restrictions, and one or more mechanisms for selecting them, likely with regional variations.

The Zzaburi who magically support the caste cult are not themselves members; they just have to have mastered the cult runes. So a powerful Zzaburi could support many cults, although the common practice is to specialize.

https://www.plantuml.com/

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

RAW, a priest position requires a small temple to support it. A godtalker can be supported by/supporting a shrine, but the income situation is different.

The anomaly here is Issaries, who has two types of priests, one of whom used to be (in older write ups) Rune Lords. The travelling princes of trade are rarely going to take a whole congregation with them on their travels. Though I suppose some caravans do get quite large?

I am minded to say that is a reflection of the special nature of Issaries; he can be temporarily accepted in any community open to trade. 

52 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But in a clan/tribe, you may find several temples of different gods. Is there a wyter for each temple ? maybe (i would say yes imo)

I would say no. As a default, the whole clan is a single community, typically tied together by the bonds of marriage. When things aren't that way, politics happen, and the clan may split. A regular priest or initiate in one of the clan temples has access to the clan wyter by being part of the clan. 

More details here.

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In the same way, the priest is for me well designed in the rule for a real priest occupation (manage a community of worshippers)

While it is not afaik explicitly stated in the rules, for me priest inherently needs a wyter in the same sense that a shaman needs a fetch. It is their means of interacting with the Other Side; they can't priest without it. And a wyter is a community spirit, so a priest needs a community.

Some personally leave the mundane world, and interact with the Gods of the otherworld directly without a proxy such as a wyter, fetch or whatever sorcerors use,. Those people are called heroes. These are supposed to break the rules, but I suspect some people are gong to need written permission to do so.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The question is not whether something is Chaos. It is whether something is Not-of-Creation

Prince Tarkalor was once told 'there is rock wool in the foundations of your keep; this will kill all who breathe it'. He replied 'it is better it stay there'. This is sometime taken to be a reference to his reliance on Telmori bodyguards.

author unknown, early Hero Wars era Tarsh:

Ernalda, give us the serenity to accept what cannot be changed. Orlanth, give us the courage to change what can be changed. Sedenya, give us the wisdom to know the one from the other

12 hours ago, Snork said:

The power trade off for being a shaman is significant and it's the only reason they became a priest

True, but there are few reasons for becoming a shaman-priest over than a pure shaman, other than what the latter can do for a community. As pointed out above Vishi is a shaman of the White Bull, not a shaman-priest of Waha.

Is there perhaps an issue with the Lightbringers book being published, but the Spirits one not, so the purist option isn't front-and-center at the same level?

11 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I think the biggest challenge is how to accommodate the different duties of a varied group of PCs when all of them achieve Runelord/Shaman/Priest status.

The general fix here is to interpret 'doing things for the cult' as 'doing cult things for their community'. A Humakti Rune Lord fights for the clan, a Barntari Godtalker feeds it. Neither would ever get called away from doing so by some nebulous 'cult' duties that don't correspond to something in-game that such characters would be expected to do

All that is then necessary is to ensure that the PCs are involved with the same community. A clan is perhaps the most natural way to do that, but there are many others; a tribe, a warband, a ships crew.

One time Greg resorted to the bag of stabling option.

Being any kind of priest to a community is like owning a horse. Very useful for doing horse-stuff, very awkward to bring into a dungeon.

If you can deal with players owning horses, the same techniques apply to communities.

1. ignore it; you leave your horse tied up off-screen and it is there when you return. Even if you came out of a different exit to the dungeon.
2. run mostly outdoors adventures
3. require players to realistically deal with hiring someone to guard their horse.
4. invent an explicit magical item like a Bag of Stabling.
5. kill their horse.

For option #3, the 90% time/income would be literal if they were supporting the community by mercenary adventuring, and explicitly compensating someone to do the boring parts for them full-time. Your apprentice can't bless the crops as well as you would, but maybe you make silver that will buy enough grain to make up the difference.

Which is quite likely not a sensible trade-off for the relatively minor power bumps that being a Priest gives. RQ:G is not RQ2 where you needed to mechanically become a Rune Priest in order to get reusable rune magic. So, if you are taking this approach, PCs should generally only become priests when they are going to be spending at least some time with that community.

The thing I would really pay again for is just a slimmer hardback book with all the stuff that overlaps with things published since taken out (sample characters, cults, spells, weapon lists, ...).

More of a 1.1 than a 1.0.4, but still...

A lightweight alternative to that is to create a blog on this site; I suspect quite a few people miss that menu option...

3 hours ago, svensson said:

And there is always the option of the magical slave collar that bleeds magic points and does not allow the use of Rune Points.

That is exactly what I meant by 'exotic slavery magic'. Such things must be created by magical specialists,which implies at least a whole cult, maybe a society, organised around enabling chattel slavery.

Modern Dragon Pass is not that society. It is not short of labor; the limitation is the magic needed to make land farmable and defended. Calories consumed that do not produce Rune Points are lost to the economy. So there is no viable economic case for slavery; the culture reflects that.

IMG, slave collars were mostly imported from Fonrit, via Esrolia, by the Lunar-supporting Red Earth faction. They were normalized to some degree during the occupation period., but Orlanth Rune Lords like Kallyr and Broyan never accepted that, as per the prohibition on slavery in the Lightbringers book. When she came to power, Queen Samastina banned that trade as offensive to Orlanth, decreeing Ompalam to be a chaos god.

Some still use them in secret. But if an Issaries herald was shown captives being held in such a state, all rights to a fair ransom would be lost. Freeing the captives by force would be not just permitted, but a general moral obligation.

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Among Heortlings it is a particularly vile dishonor to sell humans to the Morokanth.

A lot wouldn't, just as a lot wouldn't kill their captives. But even fewer would establish a shrine to Ompalam to gain slavery magic. That would be open chaos worship, and so a direct challenge to the entire Lightbringer worldview. 

9 hours ago, svensson said:

What's more, what is a clan supposed to do with a captive whose people can't or won't ransom him?

The existence of the Lightning spell mean keeping unwilling Orlanthi captive requires disproportionate effort; you have to have more guards than prisoners, 24/7, and never allow unsupervised access to the open sky or a storm. This is never going to be economically viable. There is exotic slavery magic that can do so, some imported from Fonrit, but all Orlanthi consider that explicitly chaotic.

Most prisoners are on honor system, backed by the fact that if they escape they will likely be recaptured. And physically escaping without paying ransom doesn't void the debt, which would then have to be reclaimed by other means. So what happens to those whose ransoms are not paid?

If they are sold, it will be to Morokanth, who will convert them into herd beasts and ultimately eat them; this is not chaotic. Or, pre-Dragonrise, to the Lunars, who are, but what can you do?

They might just be killed, if no-one present is their kin. Unless the captives are from far away, or there has been a bitter feud for a generation, there will almost always be some second cousins' wife that would render this option chaotic.

They may adopt them into the clan, especially if they can attract a husband or wife. Serving a term as a year-wife/bedhusband would count. Without a spouse, their status would likely be that of a thrall, as they own no property. Not every clan is generous or rich enough to support those who have nothing to offer but their labor.

They might be returned to their clan, as a public act of generosity for which a favor will be owed.

They might pay cult membership fees for an Asrelian mine work gang, knowing the Earth has dire punishments for those who desert her. This is the one that is closest to chattel slavery, and some Orlanthi consider it suspect. Queen Samastina may have recently reformed it, or have plans to do so that require the PCs help.

Or they might be given directions to the nearest dangerous ruins, and made to swear an oath, possibly magically backed; return with payment, or not at all.

Some of these would count as slavery or forced labor under modern law. But not to the Orlanthi, to whom violence is always a legitimate option. So a debt incurred by someone else using violence better must be honorably settled. Even magic, like a Humakti Oath, used to enforce such payment is not chaotic.

7 hours ago, Super Thunder Bros. said:

Anyway I can use the Atreides and they’re tale as a skeleton for some clan adventures? Lunar game would be ideal I know but I don’t have that option 

House Atreides would actually be a pretty good match for Duke Raus from RQ2 Borderlands. 

Also, by far the most valuable substance in Glorantha is Truestone, the mineral sacred to the Praxian nomads. Long exposure to truestone gives the tribes their characteristic hatred of chaos. 

Pick a move, adapt the plot. For example, following:

Casino Rex:

• opening action scene: fight some raiders, capture a strange box of brass tokens
• the scary clan grandmother briefs you that the tokens you captured bears the mark of the Talar of Casino Town.
• further investigation shows that the leader of the raiders was a notorious Wolf Pirate, Harrek's right hand man.
• turns out he is heavily into gambing at Casino Town, which has sorcerous means of collecting debts from even the most powerful.
• a plan is formed to ensure the Wolf Pirate loses money he doesn't own to the Casino.
• the clan shaman gifts you some new spirit magic
• You meet with an unexpectedly young and glamorous Asrelian widow,  carrying the 20% of the clan's wealth that will bankroll your gambling.

And so on.

RQ3 introduced:

- cults deviating from the standard template, so not every cult has rune lord.

- different cultures starting with different skills

- a full range of profession

- sorcery

Even the fatigue rules were some kind of attempt to stop players walking around in metal armour 100% of the time.

9 hours ago, John Biles said:

People incarnating Jaldon can raid Sartar, so I would assume Waha could ride you all the way to plunder Glamour if you didn't die first.

As Jaldon is not only mortal but dead, heroforming would involve first dying, and then having his spirit possessing your corpse. Most people with the power to perform the ritual prefer to use a pre-existng corpse. Ideally Jaldon's original, but any he possessed before will do.

Well, priests and rune lords of Orlanth Adventurous and Thunderous within Sartar are religiously subordinate to the Chief Priest of Orlanth Rex, aka the Prince of Sartar. So loyalty to the Prince restricts their desire to be independent, and the magical power of the Prince restricts their ability to be so.

Wheras godtalkers of Barntar within most of the Lunar provinces are (as I understand it) religiously subordinate to the local Ernalda Priestess. So if they were to unlawfully (i.e. unsuccessfully) rebel, they would be exiled from the clan.

But all belong to cults that worship aspects of Orlanth, and would be accepted at each others temples. And none worship Ernalda, or the Red Emperor.

Using the rules as written, I think you can describe that situation. It just needs you to be 100% consistent about using the terms sub cult, associated cult and subservient cult correctly.

Good luck with that.

Is it actually stated anywhere explicitly in the rules that your initial  cult skills come from your selected subcult?

I mean, it's common sense that, under normal circumstances, a PC would be actually brought up, initiated into and educated by one specific subcult. And so,  if they are different from the default, that is the cult skills you would get.

If you read threads like this, it is pretty obvious that quite a lot of people fundamentally do not get how the RQ:G rules about  deity, cult, subcult and clan are intended to work. Some even seem to think that if Elmal and Yelmalio do, in some deep metaphysical sense, share an identity, then the culture and even personalities of their followers must be the same. Or that a political reorganization of clans and tribes changes something about the nature of a deity.

As I suggested above, the simple word subcult bears a lot of the blame, as it implies a hierarchical relationship that doesn't necessarily exist.

Things might be a lot less confusing if the rules were like:

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PCs are initiated into a cult. Some cults worship the same deity, as indicated by the name in the Worship [name] skill taught by that cult. Within a cult, most temples and some shrines are independent, or supported by a clan, tribe or city. Others are subservient to some higher cult authority.

However, given Chaosium are 4 books deep into  publishing the 11-volume Cults of Runequest, such a rules update is unlikely. So the only real option is to explain. the rules as they do exist.