radmonger

Relevant:

https://www.berfrois.com/2021/09/groundnut-scheming/

Albert Walter, who had directed meteorology in East Africa since the 1920s, had been appointed as an advisor to the scheme and warned the other technical advisers of the low rainfall levels. Despite boasts that the scheme was uniquely guided by scientific and technical expertise, Walter was eventually dismissed from his role, with his deep frustration at his advice going unheeded 

...

Of course, if the climate is unsuitable for the desired crops, then to a sufficiently powerful empire, that becomes the climate's problem:

But the experiments carried on under the aegis of the local colonial government and its meteorologists. “Balloon bombs” (photographic film canisters tethered to weather balloons) and a repurposed Royal Navy flare gun were used to target individual clouds when the burners proved imprecise. Some success was claimed in measured rainfall, but not enough to resuscitate hopes of mechanized agriculture in the area.

Rare video footage of a sympathetic god learner:

It's not a really simple work of middle sea empire apologia; it was favorably reviewed in the Jonstown guardian.

it's main thesis is that the caste-bound nature of Jrusteli society meant that the Talars running things never talked to the Zzaburi studying things. For example, the common picture of the great Hashemite King switch is that the god learners intentionally placed a Sunni ruler in charge of a Shia people out of curiosity to see what would happen.

_Ghosts of Empire_ makes heavy use of shamanistic research to support the claim that those making the decision were simply unaware of that distinction.

The Red Moon hangs in the sky. Orlanth spirals around Kero Fin. Donander wanders around playing the lyre. None could choose to do otherwise..

The compromise isn't that the gods cease to exist, it is that they lack choice of actions.

Personally i would move 'enhance int' as a variable duration/intensity spell out of play with the Vadeli. Lhankhor Mhy sorcerors would get it as a rune spell will fixed values. Orthodox Malkioni would get it as Zzabur caste magic. Brithini would just be born that smart. Which they would no doubt tell you within 15 seconds of 'hello'.

Also rename 'free int' as 'law rune', while keeping it mostly mechanically the same.

21 hours ago, Cassius said:

I don't think my vision is 'canonical', but it bothers me to consider Odayla (for example) as a subcult of Orlanth. I prefer it to remain an associated cult.

Looking from the top down, maybe it is is useful to maintain a distinction between cults that actually run clans, tribes, nations, cities or guilds, and those that don't?

For example. Telmor is currently the former. In the canon timeline, it presumably becomes something like Yinkin once Argrath is done with it. And Yelmalio obviously made the opposite transition a generation back.

However, looking from the bottom up, that risks writing up the cults, and then making them unplayable due to bad rules.

As everyone above agrees, an Orlanthi clan is not monotheistic, It contains members of many cults. This is what makes it suitable as a base for PCs, in a way a city-based temple with a congregation of mostly initiates of a single cult struggles to match. There is no reason that setup can't be adjusted, via tribal and city federation obligations, to accommodate the presence of any reasonable PC cult choice.

The write-up of Heler in the Jonstown Compendium book Six Paths has Change Sex as a 3 point reusable rune spell (provided to both Vinga and Nanda).

A potentially dangerous heroquest for a 1-time effect doesn't seem very on-brand for Heler. And surely a safe heroquest is just a rune spell? For background (not protagonist-accelerated) rates of RP  regain, casting that once a year seems about right.

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It is not a completely separate cult, it's the same cult - a full cult acting as a subcult and identical full cult.

I think you are now agreeing with me, but i can't be sure. The PC starts off worshipping Odayla at a temple dedicated to Orlanth, run by a clan following the Orlanth Thunderous tradition, with the usual tribal and city federation links. They then travel to temple dedicated to Odayla, run as an independent cult. This gives them extra options to learn new spells, but does not constitute switching or leaving a cult. So the rules from p282 do not apply.

You could call the first subcult they were in something like Odayla Thunder Brother. They have 'Worship Odayla' on their character sheet, and play that role in clan or city ceremonies. Without going to a full temple, they only have access to the myths about Odayla when he was at Orlanth's side, not when he was off adventuring in the wilds on his own.

in-world, in some clans, tribes and cities, there is no support for being from some cults. No temple exists that has an obligation to provide support to people from that clan, tribe or city. In-game, you can tell which cults these are by the fact that no PC chose them during character creation. 

This is simple, straightforward and playable. if there is some Gloranthan lore reason why things should instead be fractally complex in a way that puts players who want to have different magic available into opposing, or just remote, factions, then can someone please explain it to me?

26 minutes ago, Scotty said:

There's no penalties. Either keep a Yinkin runepool or switch it to Orlanth. Switch it back if needed. My Odayla player has asked what happens if they find an Odaylan temple - the answer is nothing. There's no need to penalise adventurers for subcult/full cult shenanigans.

Can you acknowledge that rules-as written, there absolutely are? RQ:G p282 says that spells in a cult you have left cannot be replenished via worship (i.e. become 1-use). Unlike the previous paragraph, there is no exception for joining an associated cult. And having all your old magic still reusably available as you switched between radically different, but associated, cults would seem pretty weird.

By the rules, a member of the orlanth/yinkin cult knows the _Worship Orlanth_ skill, and does not know the _Worship Yinkin_ skill. It would take a lot of dedicated training to take that skill from a 5% base to a usable level. i could see the Lunars doing that for converts to the Seven Mothers, but not in most other cases.

 Obviously a gm is free to ignore whatever rules they want, but I feel the need to understand how things are supposed to work before I do so.

So what i will do going forward is;

- as per the mythology book Sartar cult distribution, a lot of people in Orlanthi clans are initiated into someone other than Orlanth.

- those people are  actually, in rules terms, initiate member of those cults (not some weird confusing subcult thing).

- they do their routine worship as part of the clan, travelling to a tribal or city temple for special occasions. As young adults, there will likely be some system of apprenticeship or fostering.

- they pay their cult tithes as per standard rules. But in practical terms, that money or time goes to the clan, who then use it to support the above arrangements.

- for some pairs of cults, Worship skills are transferable, perhaps in a similar way to related languages. So your worship Barntar skill could perhaps start at half your Worship Orlanth skill.

- This includes some cases of pairs of cults that are not associated, and might be surprising, or even shocking, to those involved.

- if a spell can be renewed by more than one Worship skill a pc has, they are free to move that spell, and the corresponding Rune Point,  between Rune Pools

The mythology book has a new cult template, including some new text in the subcult section.

Quote

a few minor cults may function as subservient cults in some areas an contexts, and independent cults in another.

Heler is given as an example, but this presumably also applies to at least Odayla, Valind, Mastakos and Yinkin. And likely also Engizi, Voriof, Barntar,  Yelmalio (as Elmal) and Vinga (if you use the independent Vinga cult write-up from six paths).

Somewhat confusingly the text 'the subcult has no existence independent of the larger cult' is still present, as is 'associated cults are deities worshiped as part of the cult that are also worshiped independently outside of the cult'.

The term 'subservient cult' isn't defined, and there is no explanation for how it is different from an 'associated cult'. 

I don't think this is quite an issue for the corrections thread, but how is this supposed to work? Are those cults intended to be played by PCs,  or NPC-only? if a PC follows one, do they write it in the 'cult' section of the character sheet, the subcult, both, they choose, or it depends?

If, as i think the rules as written imply, that Yinkin as a subcult of Orlanth is different from Yinkin as an independent cult, then are the crippling penalties (i.e. all rune magic becomes one-use) really supposed to apply  to anyone who switches from Orlanth (Yinkin subcult) to Yinkin? Are GMs just expected to break the rules here?

Furthermore, does that imply that in general there can be two cults for one deity? And so Tolat and Shargash are in fact independent cults, not subcults, and asserting an identity between them is, for all the discussion it causes, actually meaningless in rules terms?

Alternatively, which to me makes more sense, is a subservient cult just an associated cult that may or may not exist independantly? Then:

Quote

Initiating into a subservient cult means you worship at a shrine to X in a temple to Y (often a clan temple). You write X in the cult section of your player sheet, and Y in the subcult (e.g. cult: Yinkin, subcult:  Orlanth's brother). You pay tithes and receive training from Y. You must meet the qualifications of cult X, and fulfill the obligations of both. You may not learn spells not available to both cults, or progress beyond the rank of initiate,  without travelling to a full temple to Y. Arrangement for this will typically be made by  the local clan/cult hierarchy. Switiching between subcults has no magical consequences. You are now just a member of Yinkin, subcult: the Hunter, and still have a single reusable Rune Pool.

This would also apply to worshipers of associated cults, such as a clan-based member of Chalana Arroy several days travel from the nearest full temple. In effect, they are worshiping Chalana Arroy (subservient cult at Bluetooth clan).

This way, a clan is actually a meaningful entity in Runequest rules terms; it is a shared temple between (typically) Orlanth and Ernalda. Anyone who has learnt a spell from a clan temple or  shrine has a connection to the clan wyter, and so can be said to be an initiate of the clan. This happens at adulthood initiation, and also marriage ceremonies and adoption rituals. 

Then there is a distinct issue that some deities (Orlanth, Barntar and Vinga, and presumably Tolat and Shargash) are cognates, meaning those who initiate into cults to both of them can share a rune pool between them. in turn, this means they can keep it fully reusable while worshiping at only one temple and paying one set of tithers.

The currently unpublished GM's guide is, as i understand it, not required to run a campaign. Everything for that is in the main rules, GM's pack and bestiary. Instead, it will presumably be useful to write one. hopefully this will be a simpler alternative to spending several years on forums and web archives gaining full familiarity with Gloranthan culture and metaphysics, and then distilling that into playable form.

Just as how the starter set lacks character generation rules, but you can use pre-generated characters, until it is out the solution is to run a pre-written campaign, from one of the people who have already done that. There is the official chaosium one that starts in Jonstown and leads into Apple Lane and then on to Colymar tribal politics. Or there are alternatives based on the Haraborn, Dundealos and others.

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-gamemaster-screen-pack-pdf/ 

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/313871/Six-Seasons-in-Sartar

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/421842/jonstown-compendium-index-2023

This kind of textual analysis is interesting, to me at least.

Officially US and UK English are supposed to differ on this, but in fact, the UK spelling is predominant in the US:

https://sapling.ai/usage/worshiping-vs-worshipping

One theory is that when the Jrustelan colonists attempted to purge Brithini influence by their great spelling reforms, they were unable to update words commonly used in existing copies of the Abiding Book.

In RQ3, the idea was that in the West, all normal people used sorcery. This meant a single rule system had to handle folk magic, craft specialists, village priests and wizards. Opinions differ on how well that worked.

The current picture of how sorcery-dominated societies work using the rules is that the _ideal_ is that only Zzabur-caste wizards do magic, and they do so solely to support the rest of society. But everyone (except perhaps the Britihini) is living in a world of scarcity. There simply just aren't enough wizards to bless the crops, awe the kings enemies, shine the soldier's armor and lecture the peasants. So something has to give. Typically this comes down to  having peasants, warriors and sometimes nobles follow standard rune cults. Perhaps under a slightly different name, with some local variation.

When there are enough wizards, they do support something like pseudo-cults for the 4 castes, as in the post above.

The remaining issue is that coming up with a concept for a playable PC wizard is something that inherently needs a lot of support . The current sorcery rules are not going to naturally give you a 21 year old who belongs outside a monastery or library studying. One who is useful to the rest of the party without overshadowing them.

So until someone does that, they are best treated as a background detail in society, not adventurers.

On 10/15/2023 at 12:50 PM, Rob Darvall said:

Has anyone got hints as to how to include Ernaldans in cattle raids specifically in Six Seasons?

Acting specifically as Ernaldans, they could take up a 'big sister' role, taking responsibility to ensure that no serious harm came to anyone. This would include offering advice, healing anyone accidentally wounded by the raiders, and taking note of who did well and badly. Their opinions on this will no doubt later be shared with the raider's potential love interests.

They could also more directly join in by taking inspiration from Redalda, who IMG is kind of 'Ernalda Adventerous', the goddess of young women who who want to do exciting stuff, especially if horses are involved. However, if they choose that path and things end up badly, with ransom or wergild to pay, they will be getting a severe version of the 'i'm not angry, just disappointed' talk. 

If you use opposed rolls, then you can manipulate the chance of success by setting the skill of the opposition, without having to change the numbers on the PC sheet.

For example, someone with homeland lore 65% gets asked 'what do you know of the current chief of the Dundealos tribe'? This is not so completely trivial to avoid rolling, but 35% failure seems a bit high for someone so invested in the skill. So do an opposed roll against a 20% opposition, using a tie-break rule of highest roll wins.  This means that 80% of failed rolls have a 50% chance of passing, so overall chance of success is notably higher.

Or if two people with Tradetalk 35% are trying to communicate a simple commercial concept. something like the terms of a guarantee  would be say 10% opposition.  They succeed not only if either rolls under 35%, but if also either rolls higher than the opposition. So the _probably_ get it right, but there is a chance one walks away with a misconception.

I think this is in RQ:G somewhere as an option, though i am not sure it includes the Pendragon-style tiebreak rule that makes it mathematically work. What it does have is the advice to not roll if failure doesn't make any sense. It seems possible to not know much about the chief of a tribe on the the side of dragon pass, and if you need that information and don;t know it there is going to be someone you can ask..So the plot can still move forward after a failure.

Note also Trade Talk, the only magical runic language still in everyday human use. 

No doubt that goes away at the end of the 3rd age.

Prince of Sartar has the teenage Argrath, on his adulthood initation, 'speaking with the strange gods and making a plan', and discussing abstract philosophical concepts with a son of king vingkot..

No 16 year old stickpicker built according to RQ rules is going to have much of a rating in Old Vingkotling, especially when you consider that happened before education in cult skills.

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/3-the-underworld/

One thing is that when you meet (or embody) a deity on a Heroquest, you are not speaking Sartarite or Esrolian, but Storm Speach or Dark Tongue. In other words, one language per rune, presumably with a fluency equal to your rating in the rune.

The capability to speak those runic languages outside the context of a ritual or quest is esoteric knowledge that few have, and vanishingly fewer master. So translating the words, names and titles used in a runic language to a human one is a far from perfect art. Nevertheless, it is one of great significance if you want to explain, plan or prepare for a quest beforehand.

Perhaps you can always wake up a brown elf, it's just that means they will die next Sacred Time.

There may be a Rune spell that allows an awakened elf to be mobile for a week, and then return to hibernation with no ill effects. 

Or play a green elf.

It was Eurmal who did the stealing,.

And he only stole the hardware, not the operating procedures, maintenance or production manuals.

9 hours ago, kalidor said:

start in 1613 with 13 years characters, so no heroquesting or any of that jazz,

A specific version of this is to run or adapt the _Six Seasons in Sartar_ campaign. The big difference is that the first thing the PCs will do is a heroquest; their aduthood initiation.

This demystifies the key thing about heroquests that not everyone gets; they are just a scenario like any other.

p39 has several out-of-context sentence fragments:

'gods who are still relevant to tribe in the Genertala'

'hence, the myth for these important, deities'.

'once time they were alone in a spruce grove'

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

Zeus/Jupiter: The same god or two different gods?

i think the OPs point is that very much the simplest explanation, held by pretty much everyone reading this, is that there are zero gods here. There are no facts about the real world where someone is likely to ask 'well, if Zeus doesn't exist, how do you explain that?'.

Gloranthan history and physics is resistant to the zero-gods interpretation, in some cases violently. 'if orlanth doesn't exist, then why am I being struck by lightning' is a pressing question to a surprisingly large number of people. Though rarely for long enough to fully work through the philosophical implications..

As to how you distinguish between one, two or many, then in Runequest rules terms, it is pretty straightforward. You use your _worship zeus_ skill, and see if you  can regain rune magic you learnt at the temple of Jupiter. In most plausible cases, someone has already tried this; it either worked or didn't. Either way, there will likely be an elder or sage your character knows who is pretty certain they know the answer.

Of course, the magical fiction writer AC Clarke's first law says:

Quote

When a distinguished elder states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 Again I m not sure but I would consider it  little strange to have the same ritual (mundane) for all the gods of a clan

That doesn't seem at all strange to me; Orlanthi are not monotheists. In any case where you are worshiping a deity 'as a subcult' of Orlanth, then most of the congregation will be the regular clansmen (and/or women, for non sex-segregated cults), acting as lay members..

Things are different in the cities, at tribal confederation level, where different cults can have their own buildings, organisations and non-overlapping congregations.

i agree that there is a second stage of initiation where cult skills, including 'worship [deity]' are taught, taking place over the years after adulthood initiation.

it is not specified anywhere in the rules whether a 16 year old coming out of the ordeal, but lacking that skill, has the magic as 1 use. But the principle of maximum game fun, and the prince of sartar web comic, strongly suggest that. Argrath was still a teenager herding sheep when he used Orlanth's lightning against a lunar patrol.

Also it doesn't seem very Orlanthi to teach Worship Orlanth on entirely theoretical grounds, without any link to the deity, or magic to regain to show it is working.

Unless the mythology book changes this, the rules do make it reasonably clear that the third stage is unnecessary if you have gone through the first two. p 274 of RQ:G says RQ2-style initiation tests only apply to those 'unfamiliar with the temple hierarchy' . This would not be the case for any cult economically and magically supported by the clan, tribe or federation. This route is for those who have no prospects within a clan, and maybe leave before they are exiled. So they travel to a distant city and hope to prove themselves to start life anew.

Pavis is the traditional place to try this.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/worshiping-deities/

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/7-argrath-faces-the-lunars/

On 10/3/2023 at 8:02 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

So you (GM only) have to do something blocking the standard orlanth/ernalda initiation (was she/he lost at any step of the ritual, not founding the way to leave the cave, the pit, etc..).

I'd disagree that not ending up initiated to Orlanth represents a failure of the quest. Success at the quest gets you magical access to Orlanth's hearth on the god plane. From there, you can learn magic from (i.e. initiate into) anyone who lives there. This can be done on-screen as part of the quest, or off-screen in the weeks following, by repeating a lesser version of the quest.

Note that by Jeff's most recent numbers, many or most most Orlanthi (i.e. masculine members of a Orlanth-led clan) aren't actually literally Orlanth initiates. But almost everyone goes through the ordeal. Only a small percentage die, or are driven mad; really nothing to worry about.

Who lives in the clan's version of Orlanth's hearth will depend on which shrines and traditions the clan maintains. But for a clan with an Elmal tradition, it would be perfectly normal to succeed on the quest and, in rules terms, come out as an initiate of Yelmalio.

Catching the eye of a martial god like that probably requires having done some martial things to boast about when you get there. This indicates a PC who is on the fast track  for thane status in a few years.

Or maybe you have a lesser success, and it is Barntar, Voriof or the clan founder who welcomes you. You are a regular clan member, though not on who couldn't  later distinguish themselves,

Maybe it is Orlanth's wife or daughter who you feel drawn to emulate. This is one path to becoming a Nandan.

A partial failure that means you don't actually get to spend much time at Orlanth's heath. Maybe issaries or Yinkin had to rescue you and bring you there? And so it is him you feel drawn to. it is likely you will be on the fringes of clan life, as a hunter or trader.

Catastrophic failure leaves you with a choice of Eurmal or worse. You are on the path to being either the designated village idiot, or exiled entirely.

38 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

the sad thing is, it's actually probably quite easy to do this

Well, what was the elapsed time between the founding of the temple of all tricksters and the sinking of Slontos?