hkokko

4 hours ago, styopa said:

The survey's about what I thought it would be, proportionally.  I rather suspect that there are at least some RQ6/Mythras devotees that haven't found their way here or seen this, as RQ6 really *did* resurrect the moribund franchise quite handily and has some very enthusiastic fans (hell, some might say overenthusiastic as their tendentiousness prevents them even coming here).

 

I am here :-) and I have voted. Just very busy with work and a Project for my campaign...

I have only one comment on this:

When!.... 

I am late in answering - real life and my campaign intervened...

I have played

RQ2 - 81-until RQ3

RQ3 - 83?-

MRQ II 2011 to Rq6

Rq6/Mythras since then 

I own all the other rules and have read thru them - also RQ4 and AiG, the quickstart for RQG...

My favorite (as several of you might know) is RQ6/Mythras (combined with AiG especially its variable Spirit magic rules)) due to excellent cinematic combat rules and very well working magic systems (all of them). It just seems so well crafted and proves to be so when playing. The system does not get seem to get bogged down at higher levels.  Players also do seem to enjoy it at all levels and seem to be satisfied when playing also on the lower power level than Rune Lords for long periods of time. I am playing in Glorantha (in Fonrit) and all of the background materials plus scenarios are easily usable with this edition of RQ as well as with others. Enjoying this so much that created loads of encounter material in the Encounter Generator. 

The problem for me as RQ GM has always been the creation of the NPCs - that is no longer a prob with Encounter Generator. 

Looking forward to the Bestiary and campaign material. I would like to have much more scenarios and campaign material for Glorantha of the quality that we enjoyed at RQ Renaissance and not get too hung up on rules systems. 

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In which Gloranthan culture do farmers receive a salary? I cannot think of any. More often than not, farmers are property of a land holder.

My mistake: The term in RQG is Base Income...

I would possibly cut the prices of sprit magic spells by looking at what the temple should earn from them to avoid people to join the most lucrative profession there is (many thousands of lunars a year by sitting in a warm temple teaching students) and enjoying the fine Falangian wine and high maintenance companions. The above calculations assume that you can only teach one person at a time but most likely you could teach at least a few. At least in Glorantha we really appreciate the teaching profession...  Even assuming that you can teach only one at a time and the price is 1/10th of what is proposed in RQG - the initiate is a (very) wealthy person compared to most standard professions.  

Well - I have been led to believe that magic is ubiquitous in Glorantha. This is the magical world. Went to Cults of Prax - almost anybody can be a lay member of most common cults. Almost all the cults teach folk magic (spirit magic) or sometimes cast spells on their lay members, some spells they sell at half the "normal" price. I remember there was also shamans who might be cajoled to teach you spirit magic spells.  This is how we have played since the Time began. The thing that is out of sync is the cost of any of those spells - they are not affordable enough if they are hundreds of silvers but even if they are hundreds of lunars - one or one's family might save up for those - most people tend to have only a few spells so if they are useful enough one could save up for those. 

I prefer to believe that the prices of the spells in the old editions were not thought out from the overall economy point of view thoroughly enough so might be a bit too expensive even when bartering with a service. I think it is perhaps unreasonable to ask for many hundreds of lunars of a nomad or a cottar whose yearly earnings might not be that big - so even exchanging labor of equal worth it would be too expensive. For example if the cost of a spell would be 2 years of mercenary's wages - that is perhaps too much to ask. It might be a season of service for a spell (even that may be too much) or a week's travel to fetch something awkward for a shaman or 2 healthy pigs out of your 10 for the spell. If one thinks it otherwise - how rich should be the initiate or priest of the village/town - how many spell buyers there would be in a town per year - how much money would that bring in - teach a spell a week would be 40 times 500L = 20000L per year if a spell costs 500L. For an initiate that would be dozens of times of pay for mercenary most likely and make him living la vida loca like a duke. He would easily be able to buy a new iron plate each year... 

Went to check RQG and it has relatively reasonable prices for spirit magic 30L for many healing is 50L per point. So the earnings for an initiate who concentrates on teaching would be 40*50L a year for heal 1 if he has that many customers. That would make him a wealthy man at 2000L a year. If he teaches heal 3 = 6000 (it takes a week of work to learn any spirit spell), if he teaches heal 6 = 12000 - so quite wealthy person. Discount if not so many customers and some of that goes to temple - but then temple might be very rich and there must be nice treasure chest somewhere. 

RQG Crafter base income for a year is 80-160L, farmer 80L, warriors seem to be at 60L a year. These seem to be a bit on the low side for other studies.  This would seem to indicate that it would take year's half a year's all salary for farmer to learn healing 1. That sounds a bit steep to get magic ubiquitous (a few but not many spirit magic spells with some points per person) but maybe doable. Selling some spells at half price to cult members would help and would entice people to join the cults.  The cults get too rich though so that does not sound right. 

RQG also states that cult may teach some of its spells for free. 

Could not find any price for rune spells quickly from the RQG - they might be just pow sacrifices.

Thanks I can appreciate that direction and I do not think we disagree "too" much.  Journeys are good, robbing of other rune lords, relics of previous generations are all good. It still does not have to be worth king's ransom or several lifetimes 'earnings' for the reasons discussed in the chain - does not make economic sense to me. Everybody imports iron from Jrustela and Seshnela which are the only places mentioned exporting it. On the other hand: iron is also not SO much better on anything, it is better... There are people who would use the grittiness of the combat to get iron from the high and mighty rune lord who is not so tough after all to better paying customers and the price is high enough even with the above calculations ...  

There are couple of guest posts on starting in Glorantha in notesfrompavis - please disregard the system specific mentions. 

https://notesfrompavis.wordpress.com/2016/01/18/guest-post-how-to-start-playing-in-glorantha/

https://notesfrompavis.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/guest-post-back-under-the-glowline/

https://notesfrompavis.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/starting-a-glorantha-rq6-campaign-before-adventures-in-glorantha/

14 hours ago, pachristian said:

Once the Guide established that the Castle Coast was the world's number one exporter of Iron, and that "perhaps half world's iron comes from here" (Guide to Glorantha, page 417), then we established another item: Iron is a commodity that is bought, sold, and transported around the world.

But there's another important point when we see iron as a commodity: the price will be determined by what someone is willing to pay.

But to address hkokko's concern about making iron armor something that rune lords could afford, we can look at some additional numbers. I couldn't find a reference to the number of Rune Levels in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure (I probably just missed them). However, Gloranthan Classics Volume 1 - Pavis & Big Rubble, states that there are 104 Rune levels in Pavis. Of these, 42 are Rune Lords or Lord/Priests (RQ Classic system). If this counts the total population of civilized Prax (13,000 people), then there's roughly 1 Rune level per ~125 people. Or one Rune Lord per ~190 people. Rune Lords make up ~40% of the Rune levels. That fits David Scott's numbers, above. 

Assume that a Rune Lord has his or her own holdings, plus gets 40% of their temple tithes. Given the numbers above, the Rune Lord would draw about 7.6 L per day from tithes, less whatever the temple expenses are. Just to be generous, let's say that the rune lord is able to keep about half that money: ~200 L per season. If the Rune Lord comes from a profession that makes more money - a trader prince, or a Humakti mercenary, the Rune Lord's income could be quadrupled. It is unlikely to go beyond that withoutUsing my numbers above, it would be a pretty impressive rune lord who could afford a bronze suit of mail, let alone iron. Bronze mail ~1,000 L, of which ~400 is the bronze. Scale, or hoplite style plate is about half the cost of labor, but the same cost in bronze. So ~700 L.

Should most rune lords be able to afford a suit of iron armor? 

If you want iron to be a purchasable item, I propose that the cost of the iron be further reduced to 5 times the cost of bronze (110 L/kg). This makes a suit of iron mail cost ~2,600 L, a suit of iron hoplite gear about ~2,300 L. An iron sword would cost ~100 to 150 L more than a bronze sword. Of course, if you're not a rune lord or priest, the disadvantages of having iron may outweigh the advantages.

I'm inclined to think that well-organized governments (Like Seshnela, Esrolia, or the Lunar Empire), and even big temples, would consider iron a strategic asset. They automatically claim ownership of all iron within their borders. They compensate at a "fair price" anyone for the iron; but iron can only be bought and sold to the representatives of the government. Less well organized region (Orlanthi Clan lands and Praxian Wastes) generally don't have the cash to buy iron at the 'fair price'.

Now that GtG has established that iron is traded and canon publications imply that "ordinary" rune lords have access -> the price needs to be reasonable. The above price starts to fit the overall economics plus feel right. From this we can possibly start to calculate how much iron ore might be there on the shipment. It also makes iron armor person less of a target as the price for the armor is not as attractive compared to normal wages (does not make you set for life)... 

What a wonderful discussion, thanks all but thanks especially pachristian for the calculations... 

7 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Was that a reply to my Mithril comparison? It depends on which set of rules you are using. In HeroQuest you can get it simply by listing an iron item on your character sheet.

No actually it was for the economic analysis. I am trying to get the basis ’right’ in the availability of iron from multiple points of view. Economics is one of them - this will affect trade, general availability, availability from the cults, effect of somebody wearing iron to other stakeholders (there walks the richest man in the vicinity, he’s not so tough, lets separate him from that and we will be fixed for life). How large the trade shipments of iron could be and what their effect on economy would be. For example a ton of iron on a ship or 80 tons of iron on a ship or smaller amounts. How the price would affect the security /dangers of the shipment / trade route and economy overall. Who would have that kind of money/trade goods and would they be able to use all that for iron. There is this case of Mali king going to Egypt with enough gold to wreck the economy for a long time. 

Not playing HQ

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/20833/how-long-does-it-take-to-craft-the-kinds-of-armour-worn-by-typical-medieval-warr

hard to argue with price of work...

What would the price need to be that a large enough fraction of rune lords and priests  could have  a suit. There was an article once counting the number of rune lords of Humakti I think...

for example if a temple can support x rune lords a fraction of that x might have access to suit....

Excellent thinking.

This makes the iron a bit too rare I Think - out of pc world in most if not all cases. 

7 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

I always imagine pcs being stripped of their possessions when captured and ransomed without. Keeping specific gear would need extra negotiations. Booty of combat and all that.

Depending on who has captured you then being a noble or Rune Level might mean you keep your gear as your enemy would like the same if in the same circumstance.

 

Yep that has been my process as well. Interesting to look at wider economic  concerns as well. Getting to keep the expensive iron equipment would need funds. Getting new ones from the cult might be long route. Getting them back from the captors via foul means would be another hook. Seeing enemy flaunt them in public another hook...

7 hours ago, pachristian said:

Iron is expensive in the bronze age. A matched set of daggers were found in Tutankhamen's tomb. One had an iron blade, the other a solid gold blade. It was known that Tut was relatively poor, as pharaoh's go, so for years the assumption was that he could only afford 1 gold dagger, and the iron was a matched set. Then it was discovered that in the 14th century BC, Iron was five times as valuable as gold. So yes, his matched set was done that way because he could only afford one iron dagger, and had to make do with ordinary gold for the other.

Seriously though, let's take a stab at armor weight: 25 kg. Seriously. Throughout history, a full soldier's kit has massed right about 30 kg. Sometimes it climbs up to about 35-40 kg, and sometimes it drops a little, but a full soldier's kit always hovers around 30 kg. It's not about the material, it's about what can a man carry all day, and still be expected to fight. 

The only people who could afford full suits of armor could also afford servants who would carry their stuff; so armor and weapons made up the full 30 kg of equipment. Although it's gaming convention to have heavier and lighter suits of armor, the truth of the matter is that the full suit of armor was always as heavy as the wearer could take (given environment considerations). 

Now about money. My primary source here is Kenneth Hodges "List of price of medieval items" (http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html).

A complete suit of mail, 12th century, is given as 100 shillings. A suit of ready-made milanese armor (i.e. full plate) is given as 8 lbs, 6 shillings, 8 pence in 1441. Let's convert both prices to pence: Mail (12th century): 1,200 pence. Plate (15th century): 2,000 pence. Now we have to adjust for inflation. From the same website, we find that a Thatcher was paid ~2 pence per day. In 1441 he was paid 5.25. Let's adjust both prices to 12th century values: Mail = 1,200 pence. Plate = 762 pence. This is accurate, by the way. Mail is the most expensive form of armor ever made in mass quantities. Mail is 600 day's pay for a skilled laborer. Plate is 381 day's pay for a skilled laborer. From this we can convert to gaming money. Classic RQ defines a Lunar as worth about "Five pre-WW2 US dollars". An average salary at that time was ~$1,900 per year (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/30soirepar.pdf. An average salary is about 380L per year. Using this logic, 1 Lunar is about 1 days pay+. A suit of mail is therefore worth ~600 lunars, plate is ~381L. Note that these are prices based on extrapolation: I know they're different from what's in the rules. Don't troll me to point that out.

So how much money do our lords and ladies make? Same website: A mercenary knight makes 2 shillings a day (1316). Armored Infantry makes 6 pence per day. A baron's annual income is around 200 - 500 pounds (1300), An earl makes twice that, and crown revenue (for England) is 30,000 pounds (1300). Converting these to Lunars, just as we did the armor, we find: Knight: 19 L/day. Armored Infantry ~4 L/day, a landed baron's income is about 100 to 250 L per day, an Earl's is about 200 to 500 L per day, and a medium-sized kingdom takes in something like 15,780 L/day. 

We've now established that a suit of mail costs about a month's pay for a knight. (In 1300 they didn't have plate yet). Using this for a leap of logic, a landed baron could (possibly) spend 3,000 to 7,500 L for a suit of armor. A wealthier noble could spend 15,000 L for the suit of armor. Keep in mind, these guys are the 1% of the 1% of their day. 

If a full kit of Iron (weapons, armor, etc) is 30 kg, and Iron is ~2,000 L per kg, then we're looking at 60,000 L for a full kit of iron: armor, weapon, shield fittings and so on. It would actually be less than 30 kg of iron, because of the weight of padding, straps, and so on. So call it 20 kg of iron, and 10 kg of reinforcing material - the shield in particular is probably still wood. So 40,000+ L for a full kit in iron. (in modern money that would be about $5 million). If we use 700 L per kg then it would be about 14,000+ L for a full kit. This makes the iron armor affordable for the wealthiest of nobles.

Wrapping up my long-winded entry, I recommend retaining the value of metals that I gave earlier, to stay consistent with Guide coin sizes, but reduce the value of Iron to 700 L per kilogram. This makes it only about 40% as valuable as gold, but otherwise keeps the metal values and coin sizes consistant with older editions.

This was exactly what I was looking for - good grounds for the pricing based on economy. Iron will be rare but not impossibly expensive. i like the thinking on how much of iron armor is iron. This might have an effect on ransom - are you ransomed with your precious iron armor or not. It will also probably be quite rare for the smaller cults ro be able to provide iron armor to their rune lords or priests - more likely to get single pieces. Has anybody done similar studies on cult temple economics....

4 minutes ago, simonh said:

I payed a Bison Rider (I think that was the tribe, it was a long time ago) in Home of the Bold and counting coup was definitely referenced in the character background. Of course that’s not really canon, but it’s a good point of reference.

Simon Hibbs

Convulsion 92?

On 12/18/2016 at 6:01 PM, soltakss said:

Referee is immediately confrontational as it brings to mind two competing sides where the referee must make a judgement. GM is better, in my opinion. In fact, I don't use narrator, Keeper or other terms when playing other games, I use GM for them all.

To lighten up a bit: In Finnish there is this TM = tunkiomestari which translates to Midden Heap Master :-( another more frequently used is Lord of the Dungeon (Luolanherra). these come from very early days and might be campaign specific. I prefer the latter one if my playing group calls me anything even if the Dungeons are mostly left in the late 1970's

Using Encumbrance calculator calculated that a normal 7 hit location mail iron amor would weigh 35 enc in real world. Bronze would weigh 21 enc. 

RQ2 stated that enchanted iron weighs 1 thing less than bronze per location= would be 14 on the above calculations = significant advantage of using hallowed metal (in addition to the other effects of iron)

Could not find my Rq3 books the enc for full mail armor so let's take the above as basic measures

Either way :

35 enc = 35 kg iron x 2065 silvers = target earning 72275 silvers provided it can be exchanged for money. That is more money than seen in the campaign :-) 

14 enc = 14 kg x 2065 silvers = target earning 28910 silvers. Even that is more money than seen in years of campaigning.

add to those approx 5 ENC for shield and longsword = few thousand to 10000

Sanctification is of course for an individual...

Of course if the weight difference for sanctified and unsanctified might not exist...

Anyway the iron armoured rune lord or iron dwarf is one lucrative target... The money might represent a few lifetimes worth of earnings for mercenaries or 5-10 years of earnings for senior military or civilian high ranking official.  

This would also give guidelines how available / affordable iron (and gold for sun cults) is as part of armor or weapons, especially for smaller cults... 

How have you handled this in your campaigns.

Lovely. Thanks. 

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

Elder Secrets has prices for runemetals (Secrets Book p33), all costs are in Silvers per ENC.

• Aluminium 40
• Bronze 7
• Copper 5
• Gold 600
• Iron 700
• Lead 1
• Quicksilver 40
• Silver 50
• Tin 15

 

I knew I had seen that somewhere... Thanks this is very useful

38 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Regardless of Hollywood epics, rowers were rarely slaves (until the Medieval period when galleys were very different from triremes or penteconters) because rowing is a specialized profession - requiring training to keep the oars all synchronized. Just one rower out of synch can disable an entire bank of oars.

Well in Fonirt most of them would be anyway :-) - MGF... To PC:  After 15 years of rowing for the Jann you manage to make your escape. 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Elder Secrets has prices for runemetals (Secrets Book p33), all costs are in Silvers per ENC.

• Aluminium 40
• Bronze 7
• Copper 5
• Gold 600
• Iron 700
• Lead 1
• Quicksilver 40
• Silver 50
• Tin 15

 

I knew I had seen that somewhere... Thanks this is very useful

Time to think about the value of cargo. 

Based on various Gloranthan sources: 

A typical merchant ship can take 10-80 tons of cargo (on the lower end Xebec merchant, on the higher end Huge Haragala Merchant) . Triremes seem to take 1 to 2 tons. 

Based on GtG following items might be carried from/to font or within Fonrit

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0J20AZXw-hDcGZZWGdFVE1BeUE/view 

Some gloranthan say that it can take 2 silver per 100 km in ocean per ton for transport cost and much more than that for river or overland. 

Based on another source saying that 200 slaves in poor conditions could be put on 120 ton approx 24 meter long ship (Henriette Marie) we can then calculate human cargo for this game world. 

Nonhuman cargo: 

What would be 10 tons worth of Herbs worth when it is common. It might be several times worth of that when it is rare (in real world some sources say  it might have been 60 times the cost of transit from India for the spices). . Provided there is market for that. 

How about wool, wine, ivory, metalworking, cloth, bronze per ton :-)

Afraid my campaign will move to sea and piracy is always an option....

I could not find in my notes and could not find it in my electronic library. 

What would 1 enc worth of (unsanctified, not given by cult) iron cost or be worth in Glorantha assuming normal rarity. 

My players are considering traveling by sea from island (let's say in the vicinity of Loral) to somewhere else in Fonrit and then maybe across the ocean at some point. Provided they can find the possible rare ship how much should it cost for them to travel. This is probably not very affordable if you want to be just a passenger. Are there any figures you have used, any sources. I want this to be something they need to strive for not something that they take as self evident or easy...