Harshax

Is it considered common-knowledge for stats to be rolled in-order for BRP?

I would say so, but it depends. When I ran Elric!, I'd let players arrange them as desired, since all stats were generated using the 2d6+6 method.

For the first year or five that I was running RQ3, I'd roll in order. Later, I let players rearrange any attributes that had the same dice range. For humans, this meant they could rearrange STR, CON, POW, DEX, and APP, or they could swap SIZ and INT.

If you're going to run something gritty, then do it in order, otherwise choose a method that satisfies both yourself and your players.

ur-skills

What is this term? ur-skills?

So then would it be more purist to separate into another document all rules marked as optional? That way, the rule clarification could be uploaded to DM References, and all the optional things about Extended Contests, Narrative Guidelines and Tangible rewards could be placed in a separate document uploaded to Optional Rules. I rather liked all that stuff, but can appreciate a file that examines only the 'rule as written'.

If that is the consensus, I'll upload the file, not as a PDF but as a Word Document so individuals can cut out the table and place it in their own layout for use in a GM Screen.

We're I not trying to emulate something more serious than D&D, I'd think some kind of maintenance routine would be called for. HarnMaster does this.

I think the most important obstacles from a D&D perspective will be money and availability. Do I have the money to spend on training? Who can train me?

I thought this thread was started to clarify the points about the Opposed Roll mechanics in BRP as written, not to allow someone to issue another complaint against the combat resolution mechanism.

While it might be easy for me to say that's all this thread is about, it is clear that I've added quite a bit of optional detail to the document uploaded to the Downloads section.

I'm not particularly keen on the Independent Roll myself. In fact, I disagree with many who state that Opposed Skill rolls prevent the possibility of Critical Successes at all, as is clearly illustrated by the chart in the first post of this thread.

However, this doesn't mean that Independent Skill Rolls should not be included in the document. However, I'll argue they are already present, just in another language. Consider this: In Frogspawner's system, a successful Dodge has some impact on the effect of a critical Attack. The chart reflects this already, by reducing a Critical to a Special Success.

The question remains, is it better to have a single chart that resolves two independent actions as opposed to each other, or two charts that require refereeing two opposing effects against exclusive goals? In the end, I think it is one of semantics.

Furthermore, one can dispense entirely with the chart, and use the results outlined under each skill description. Again, this isn't the same as Frogspawner's suggestion, but it is similar, and more streamlined. YMMV

Harshax, I tested your Opposed Rolls system this evening, it worked perfectly

well and the players liked it - Thank you again.

That's awesome!

I've uploaded the final edit (I hope).

BRP Central - Downloads - Opposed Skill Rolls

I think it would be an interesting idea to collect individual house rules used by the members of this forum. Frogspawner has already suggested his combat system. Should we start another thread?

Isn't there a little more to the parry part? Doesn't a weapon actually take damage when used to parry a Critical Strike? Need to dig up the original texts. . .

EDIT: Ah hah!

I'm looking at GDW RQ3. It specifically states that a Dodge must meet the same Degree of Success as the attack to be effective, and Parry always blocks it's HP worth of damage (taking 1 Pt if the damage exceeds its HP).

Where are your rules coming from?

I'd be glad to (if there's any chance you'll actually put it in!)

Ah! I recognize the mechanics now!

Maybe it is a good idea to explore the core mechanics and alternate methods for task resolution.

Ok. I'll give it a go.

You're asking me to address 'Non-opposed rolls in Combat' within a document dedicated to exploring 'Opposed Rolls outside of Combat'

That's rich!

Maybe we need to broaden the scope of the document to be: BRP Mechanics

First draft of the document is up:

BRP Central - Downloads - Opposed Skill Rolls

I added some additional advice to how to use extended contests. This was created in Open Office with the 'Export to PDF' feature. Please let me know if it is unreadable.

Any chance you could pop in another option, something like this...?

[Optional] Independent Rolls: Simplified Combat w/o Opposed Mechanism

ATTACK

Normal Hit = Normal damage.

Special Hit = Special Effect by weapon type (Crush/Impale/etc).

Critical Hit = Maximum damage, bypass armour.

Fumble = Roll on the Combat Fumble table.

PARRY

Normal Parry = Blocks damage up to half weapon HPs.

Special Parry = Blocks damage up to full weapon HPs.

Critical Parry = Blocks all damage.

Fumble = No effect.

DEFENCE

Normal Dodge = Reduce hit by 10 damage

Special Dodge = Reduce hit by 20 damage

Critical Dodge = Reduce hit to 0 damage

Fumble = No effect

Wouldn't want to give the impression Opposed Rolls (although the official method) are the ONLY way to resolve things when "refereeing a good game", now would we? Especially when it seems they only got into SB5 (hence BRP) by some accident, despite adverse playtest feedback, and most incarnations of BRP don't use them...

Could you explain this a little more? Give me a couple of combat rounds worth of example? I'm not following what is happening here.

Downloads: A new file has been added by Harshax:

Opposed Skill Rolls

The purpose of this document is to provide better understanding of the rules for Opposed Skill Rolls as presented on page 173 of the Basic Roleplaying Rulebook. We then explore a few ways to utilize the details provided by the results for use in refereeing and narrating your game.

Ideas for the Assassin's Guild

[Apply Poison]

This skill allows the practitioner to safely apply contact poison to objects such as blades and traps.

[Alchemy: Poisons & Antidotes]

Improved via Training Only. The ability to identify, harvest, and produce toxins and counter-toxins.

[Death Attack: Species]

Improved via Training Only. Victims must make CON Rolls vs. Damage Roll on the Resistance Table if the assassin's attack is from complete surprise, and is lower than their skill in Death Attack.

Mind if I take this out and make a PDF of it? I'll post it here.

If you don't mind waiting, I'd like to do it while at work today. (It will be slow). First, I want to give it another pass to ensure I'm happy with the language.

Thanks for whipping this up!:thumb:

You're welcome. I was looking to create some tables for a GM screen anyway, and the recent thread about how Opposed Rolls are broken finally inspired my decision on what to add first.

[Also, I cleaned up the table for easier reading]

Final edit. I think I've covered all the bases. I also reorganized the information so that BtB players don't have to wade through the optional text.

Game On!

The Harshax

Islan,

I hope this post helps clarify Opposed Skill Rolls.

Sincerely,

The Harshax

Added just a few more notes regarding narrative rewards. That should do it. Unless there are other suggestions.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I've updated the entry - altering the table slightly, and adding a little more detail to how to utilize Degree of Success for both Simple and Extended contests.

Incidentaly, the "Hours in the Day" principle, as explained to me years ago, is slightly different from what you might be thinking. It's not the time taken to learn a skill - but the time required to maintain a skill.

Oh! [insert light bulb] I thought you were both referring to time commitments to guilds. I see that hours per day may be an excellent idea!

Are you going to do a table for each and every skill, or just Acting?

Smartass!

I've tried to clean up the language, and add a little more flavor text.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the role of Opposed Rolls in refereeing a good game.

EDIT: This top level post is very out of date from the document that was uploaded here: http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=229

Opposed Skill Rolls: The Basics

The winner of an Opposed Skill Roll is the person who rolls under their skill. In the event that multiple opponents succeed at their skill roll, the person who both succeeds and rolls highest wins.

Opposed Skill Rolls: By The Book

The table below lists the winner of Opposed Skill Rolls based on the individual's Degree of Success. First index the Protagonist's Degree of Success on the table below, then cross reference with the Antagonist's Degree of Success. A result of ' - ' in the Winners Column indicates that the GM should compare the actual rolls of each participant and award the contest to the person that rolled highest.

Protagonist  Antagonist   Winner       Degree of Success

-----------  ----------   -----------  --------------------------------------

Critical     Critical      -           Highest Roller Wins Normal Success (1)

             Special      Protagonist  Normal Success (1)

             Success      Protagonist  Special Success (2)

             Failure      Protagonist  Critical Success (3)

             Fumble       Protagonist  Spectacular Success (4)

Special      Critical     Antagonist   Normal Success (1)

             Special       -           Highest Roller Wins Normal Success (1)

             Success      Protagonist  Normal Success (1)

             Failure      Protagonist  Special Success (2)

             Fumble       Protagonist  Critical Success (3)

Success      Critical     Antagonist   Special Success (2)

             Special      Antagonist   Normal Success (1)

             Success       -           Highest Roller Wins Normal Success (1)

             Failure      Protagonist  Normal Success (1)

             Fumble       Protagonist  Special Success (2)

Failure      Critical     Antagonist   Critical Success (3)

             Special      Antagonist   Special Success (2)

             Success      Antagonist   Normal Success (1)

             Failure      Neither      Both Fail (0)

             Fumble       Neither      P. Fumbles (0 or worse), A. Fails (0)

Fumble       Critical     Antagonist   Spectacular Success (4)

             Special      Antagonist   Critical Success (3)

             Success      Antagonist   Special Success (2)

             Failure      Antagonist   Normal Success (1)

             Fumble       Neither      Both Fumble (0 or worse)

[Optional] Opposed Skill Rolls: Extended Contests

A GM may decide to instill dramatic tension into an Opposed Skill Roll by making the procedure an Extended Contest. In an Extended Contest, the GM decides that one side will achieve their victory condition after acquiring X number of successful rolls. For example, a foot race may be described as an extended Agility contest, where each success represents progress along the contest's route. The winner of the race is the first person to acquire 5 successes, eg. complete the course.

[Optional] Degree of Success: Narrative Guideline

Whether running a Simple or Extended Contest, a GM may wish to use the degree of success in an Opposed Skill Roll as a reference for narrating the results of the contest. The table above lists the degree of success the victor has achieved. Each degree of success above 1 indicates a tangible quality of grace, mastery or aplomb.

Narrative should reflect the overall success of all participants too, not just the winner's. Two individuals, each achieving a Critical Success, can be described as an epic struggle. The victory may be decisive, but their individual performances may be incredibly memorable, and the artistic quality of that victory may be debated for years to come.

The language used to narrate the scene will have much to do with the overall skill of the participants. Imagine two poets of modest rank (20%), one achieves a Critical Success, the other a Fumble. The GM could describe the contest as a series of childish rhymes and unimaginative limericks, the loser being completely incapable of even the simplest rhymes, the winner managing to get through most recitals without stuttering. Those same rolls between skilled masters (90%+) would deserve far better praise. Maybe both poets brought the room to tears. Such was the mood, that one poet succumbed to the power of their own words (or those of her opponent!) and was simply unable to carry on.

[Optional] Degree of Success: Tangible Reward Guideline

A GM may assign additional benefits to Opposed Skill Rolls based on the degree of success achieved by the participants. If the above mentioned foot race were run as a standard Opposed Skill Roll, winning a race by 1 success may provide nothing more than bragging rights to the victor. 2 successes may get the character recognized at the local bar, earning her a few rounds on the house. 3 successes may give the character a bonus to Reaction Rolls when meeting a particularly valuable contact who happens to be a racing enthusiast. 4 successes could even immortalize the character in local song or history.

The value of an additional benefit should be relative to the skill of all participants. A character with 100% Brawling may not gain the same benefit for beating up a pile of toothless old men as a more moderately skilled wrestler who faced better matched opponents. Conversely, seeing the same toothless old man beat up a master pugilist may get the wrestler laughed out of town!

Finally, a GM may decide to use the degree of success in an Opposed Skill Roll as a guideline to award multiple milestones for determining who wins an Extended Contest. As in the example of a foot race run as an Extended Contest, someone who achieves a Critical Success vs. an opponent's Fumble may be awarded 4 'successes' to their overall goal of achieving 5 to win the race. The table above lists a numeric value in parenthesis that that indicates the number of successes to attribute to the winner.

Alternatively, instead of treating the Degree of Success as additional milestones in an Extended Contest, the GM could keep a running total of their values, judging the overall performance of the individual participants by the final sum of their successes.

For example, the GM decides to run a social event in which the Player Characters are interacting with the court elite. He decides to treat the event as a 5-roll Extended Contest. He's noted that anyone that achieves a total victory of 10 points will be invited to an even more selective party after hours. After many rounds of play, one character wins the contest with the following results: 1 Critical (3pts), 2 Normal (2pts x1), 1 Failure (0pts x1), and 1 Special (1pts x2) for a total of 7 Points. This isn't enough to be whisked away to the ultra-elite gathering, but it may be enough to develop further contacts in the city.

I wrestled long and hard about whether to remove them for all but combat skills, but in the end kept them out of respect.

I wouldn't beat myself up over it. In my circle, we had already been using degree of success as a slide rule for narrating the situation. Since we spent so much of our time in RQ3 salivating over when we could recalculate our Special and Critical Success ranges, it only became natural for a player to call out a Special or Critical Success when asked to make a skill check of any kind. It could however, use a little clarification. :ohwell:

Ok. I'll try to draft something in the next hour or so, and post in a new thread. We can then discuss the best language, and then turn it into a PDF or something.

I'd agree that the both of you are pretty much saying the same thing. The relationship of responsibilities to various guilds is worth a lot of thought, and can help flesh out a campaign immensely.

Examples:

Fighter's Guild: Members must be available for conscription by local lords.

Duelist's Guild: Members may be assigned duties by Guildmaster to duel on behalf of nobles, businessmen, etc.

Diviner's Guild: Members may not swear fealty to any landed noble. (May directly conflict with Fighter or Duelist Guild responsibilities)

Assassin's Guild: May be assigned murder contracts by Guildmaster (May limit association with all other Guilds)