Joerg

They are the remnants of the Chaos invasion into the Underworld. Chaos didn't do too well there since the defenders knew many of its tricks. But wherever you have a hellhole, Xamalki might emerge.

There is another issue here: transliteration of sounds that come out wrongly if taken directly.

Nochet is a typical case: the German transliteration is "Notschet", as the ch sound is pronounced as in "loch" in German.

Taking this to an extreme, we might get the ruling storm god "Orlänf" in the world of "Gloränfä"...

Some sounds like the "th" don't have equivalents in civilized languages, either, or are spelled "c" (followed by an "i" or "e") as in Spanish. Getting the "wh" and "r" right is another issue, as are sharp "s" sounds.

Gerendetho appears to be a (not) missing link for Earthwalkers between Genert and Turos/ViSaruDaran/Lodril, the volcanic/fiery squareheads of Peloria. I don't quite see him as a volcanic deity, but he appears to be a mountain giant, which can have some Fire-in-Earth connections.

The older the giants get, the less pronounced the elemental affiliation may become.

1 hour ago, GianniVacca said:

The creatures from the "classic fantasy" list above are too.... classic, too vanilla. Since Revolution D100 seems to have its roots in Europe (judging by the backers, but I might be wrong), I'd rather you provided stock characters from European folklore: the ambiguous elf (à la Erlenkönig, or changeling-style) rather than the Tolkienesque/D&Desque one, the disturbing Dwarf (Nibelungen-like) again rather than the Tolkienesque/D&Desque one, trolls of many different sizes and characters, child-eating ogres, sentient/shape-shifting animals, beings from Central European folklore: leshy, rusalka, vodyanoy, from Italy: babau, uomo nero, from Greece: Mormo...

These creatures could be done for an urban fantasy catalogue just as well (thinking of Butcher's Dresden Files, Hearne's Iron Druid, Aaronovich's magical Britain with the Newtonian magics, TV series like Lost Girl or True Blood). They mostly come with a home territority, often enough with an Otherworld of their own, too, and don't usually go with the times where technology is concerned. This makes them universally useful whether you are playing in a paleolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age, mediaeval or modern magical setting.

If you provide information how to use some of them as player characters, you have an entire supplement.

16 minutes ago, Zit said:

Then please the classical medieval big-goat-like version of it, not the drippy fantasy 20th Century Hollywood-y white-horse-wtih-a-horn.

What, not the Woolly Rhino?

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Or you could make the case that the gods (however they are later understood and experienced) predate the mortal cultures that worship them.

Tricky, that, given the presence of mortals (even if that distinction was introduced only later) in the Green Age. The Theyalans are the culture of Orlanth (a god born in the Storm Age) - clearly younger than any of the gods born on the Cosmic Mountain - and Ernalda (and by extension Asrelia and even Gata) which reaches back into the earliest moments of the Green (or Earth) Age. Sure, the culture didn't survive unchanged, but it persisted.

With the cyclical nature of Godtime the opposite argument is as valid - that the actions of Man enabled the development of the gods. The Cause and Effect experience of Danmalastan can be applied to the developments of Issaries and Lhankor Mhy.

In the same breath, we find Lhankor Mhy in myths older than Orlanth, e.g. in the Compact of Nochet. Which is bending cause and effect a lot, also because it has Kodig participating in an event before the birth of Orlanth, unless we regard Kodig, Rastagar and Finelvanth all as bearers of a certain soul that is reborn again and again to wreak havoc with the Grandmothers' dark designs.

My favorite bit was "The Other Side of the Dragon" which puts player characters as "military advisors" into a Vendref setting. Definitely worth "salvaging".

In private discussion Sandy Petersen claimed at Kraken that the dragonewts still around since Godtime are the failures and dropouts on their way of draconic ascension, going through endless cycles of rebirth without any meaningful progress. It isn't sure whether there were any dragonewts whose eggs were laid within Time, e.g. during the EWF, or whether the new nests established during the EWF era simply were eggs taken from other nests and arranged to lie in a different place.

I suggested that the dragonewt egg is the real character, and the dragonewt walking about is a dream reality emanating from the egg.

Dragonewts are all about progressing, developing their personality without suffering entanglement in the world. As the egg dreams, the dream body acts out according to that dream as the unborn dragon struggles through experiences with certain emotions.

Stranger discussions continued in a short peaceful moment at Essen Game Fair whether the actions of a dream body and the spiritual progression are connected at all. Take that for weirdness beyond the weird.

I recall that the long noses weren't elephants, but some strange Pleistocene hoofed herbivore with a nose/snout similar to that of a Saiga antelope, but longer.

The Plains Elk aren't Plains Moose, to stop a revival of that ancient chestnut of Glorantha discussions. They are a kind of antlered large grazing herbivore. Ok, possibly with a body shape reminding of moose.

If you want to wonder about climate adaptation, the bison are the most blatant misfits wrt climate.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

My sources were: Glorantha.com, AH Gods of Glorantha, Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses.

I didn't question your use of sources, but the simplified picture there. Grain goddesses probably are as much Earth secrets as most males will be able to comply to. It seems to take exceptional qualities for prospective rulers/dynasty founders in order to contact the deeper sovereignty secrets. Those of the grain goddess cults don't appear to run much deeper than the plow shares.

Somehow I don't see Seshna Likita as a young woman clutching bundles of rye, but as a woman in prime mother age clutching serpents, wearing a crown, flanked by lions. Thoughts of rye come very, very late, a lesser aspect.

Likewise I am not sure how to deal with the Green Lady of Ralios, another serpent-entwined goddess of the land, alternatively known as Ralia or Ernalda. Imagery similar to Seshna Likita, with horses replacing the lions.

I don't find any grain connection at all for Kero Fin, and all the grains (and beasts) for Esrola.

IMO these land goddesses often enough are aspects of deeper female cults, which may send other avatars for the sovereignty of the land. On a clan chief level I think that the grain goddess will suffice, on a tribal federation level I don't. (The Theyalan model is the only one which counts here as it is the blueprint for any theist worship of the land goddesses, studied and simplified by the God Learners and carried to Pamaltela outside of Umathela (where the Theyalans were anyway).

Given the Malkioni reluctance to let women become sorceresses, I think the God Learners may have been somewhat less well informed about earth cults than they were about the "interesting" ones taking active roles. The Goddess Switch probably had some involvement of female God Learners, but I have the impression that the twins of Caladra and Aurelion fame saw one of the most outstanding female God Learners in history.

The resulting knowledge-light grain goddess sovereignty power probably served them and their theist subjects well enough when they restricted themselves to the local variety. Ongoing theist-tinted worship of Jrusta (or whichever fertility goddess the Olodo had contacted) was part of their great success on Jrustela, allowing rapid growth. I don't think that the God Learners ever delved into the secrets of the Serpent Kings - their Seshnelan engagement was as monotheist crusaders against the then still dominant Stygian school of Malkionism which shared elements with the Serpent King combination of theist worship of the land goddess and Malkionism. The Serpent King ways were abolished when the lineage died out and no new lineage was put forward (the dynasty had something like a reboot with Aignor the Trader doing a repeat of Froalar's marriage with the Earth with a lesser avatar from the east, IIRC). The remnants of the cult of Seshna were too insignificant and hidden to gain deeper secrets there.#

Ralios wasn't a fruitful study object, either - the local earth cult sided with the Autarchy, and may still have some of the best Arkati protection against invasive heroquesting there is on Glorantha.

Slontos however gave them Theyalan subjects actively practicing their earth worship, and no strong Autarchy intervention. This is where the God Learners studied the land goddesses, and where they decided to initiate the Goddess Switch. While they were active in Esrolia, the earth secrets there were way too deep to penetrate, especially by male-led researchers. They concentrated on secondary knowledge collected by the Lhankor Mhytes there.

So: grain goddesses can convey a certain degree of sovereignty over the land of the rulers, but IMO not beyond small tribal level. A tribal confederation needs something deeper.

Grain goddesses are a good way to get fertility magic that ensures a certain wealth and security. They are useful. They don't give any deeper secrets if approached as young women holding bundles of grain or as the grain plant itself. They are a safe approach, but a shallow one.

The Goddess Switch showed that the grain goddesses rely on deeper roots than the ones the God Learners understood and managed to transplant. These aren't part of the grain goddess cults or their limited sovereignty rites. Due to other problems like the Closing and the war against the EWF and the Old Day Traditionalists, the GLs failed to research or understand these deeper roots.

I don't see much evidence for Heortling worship of land goddesses, but a lot for worship of Esrola in her various aspects. Orlanthi elsewhere may differ. Heortlings wed Esrola or Maran for fertility, but Kero Fin for sovereignty, going for the bedrock rather than the soil. In Esrolia, the Adjusted Heortlings apparently settled for Orendana queens that were married by their warrior kings - lesser queens of lesser cities mainly, except for Finelvanth who experienced a replay of the Sword and Helm Saga. Non-adjusted Esrolians go the Grandmother way.

On 11/22/2015 at 11:16 PM, M Helsdon said:

The Grain Goddesses are the Queens of the Land, the land goddesses. The Esrolians consider Esrola the Mother of the Grain Goddesses.

That's the God Learner doctrine.

Esrolia clearly has a different sovereignty goddess (Orendana) than the various grain goddesses (Esra, Pela etc).

I am convinced that there is a Slonta, and I am quite sure she had a "grain" connection up to the God Learner era, though I don't know if that still is the case, or what grain that might have been. Dragon Pass doesn't seem to have a grain goddess, but has Kero Fin as sovereignty goddess, or her lesser avatars (Velhara, Sorana Tor, FHQs).

In Seshnela, we have Seshna as the sovereignty goddess to be married by the king (Froalar) only after Hrestol slew Likita Ifttala, her daughter, the mother of Pendal.

Don't even try to start in Peloria. Pelora, the goddess of maize. No, wheat. No, rice (three varieties). With Surensliba, Biselenslib, Eses, Naveria as the sovereignty goddesses of the lands.

Find me a cookie cutter example free of God Learner simplification, please. Then I will accept that as a single case for this quoted statement.

As I explored earlier, land goddesses are using the stem of the land goddess' name and -ia, -os or -ela. Those Pamaltelan "grain goddesses" whose names are totally different from the associated lands aren't really grain goddesses, but a God Learner attempt to make local plant goddesses fill the role they knew from Genertela. Vrala may be the notable exception.

I don't think that Esrola qualifies as land goddess for Slontos, Wenelia or Maniria. Grain goddess, maybe, but those regions each have their own sovereignty goddess different from Esrola.

The regions named -land appear to be named after peoples rather than goddesses - Heortlings, Caladrians/Caladrings. (Rindland probably doesn't have a goddess "Rind", but might have been the land of the Rindings, possibly named after some glorious leader. Corolaland is mostly uninhabited now, but might have seen more human habitation during the Autarchy. The Orlanthi kingdoms of Dragon Pass and Peloria aren't named after any goddesses, with the possible exception of Holay. In the case of Tarsh, I haven't got the slightest idea how that name came about. It starts out as "Arim's Kingdom" or "Shakelands". Neither is there any consistent systematic in the naming of the Pelorian satrapies and many of the other subdivisions (such as Henjarl, Esvuthil, Mastina), except for a few -ia instances like Naveria and Dikoria.

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Paps, as you assume, is derived from the breasts of the goddess, and is the site of the Deep Womb of Eiritha.

Given the placement of the Paps on the Eiritha Hills, they may be an entrance to the Deep Womb, but the womb would be situated further east. And the normal birth exit would be situated further north on the hills. The Paps is where Eiritha's nourishing fertility flows out, creating the Sacred Place with year-round fertile ground.

Unlike the namesake hill tops in Ireland (which are breast shaped), I think that here we have the beast mother anatomy. Maybe not the exaggerated udder of a Holstein cow, but if the hills bear any similarity to a herd beast outline, there would be several tits extending westward from a rounded hill in the angle between the hind leg hills and the belly hills. rather than a single cairn on top of each of a pair of rounded hills (as visited somewhere in Sartar in Jeff's improvised HQ Glorantha game at Chimeriades 2014). (But then the intrepid party of adolescent shepherds visitied those in search for the spirit women of the hilltops...)

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Dunstop is more problematical; there are references to it being founded by a chieftain named Dun, as his 'stop', trading place, on Kordros Island, so it might be better treated as a proper name.

That claim is from Dragon Pass - Land of Thunder, which was a collection of fan-submitted descriptions for places on the Dragon Pass map - not all of which have made it unchanged into the Guide (where applicable). The function as a trading place comes with its location.

Personally I don't think that translating the place names should be translated. Living near a border region, I always wondered why P

Sorry to the anglophones, but I'll give German translations I have seen in use before.

Boldhome: Kühnheim

Furthest: Weitest

The Spike: hasn't received an official translation yet. "Der Nagel" (the nail), "der Dorn" (the thorn) or "die Nadel" (the needle) might be appropriate if you think of the office tool spike to keep leaflets in place - that's what the Spike did to the various phases of Creation, stacked one atop the other (until Storm broke the sequence). "Der Bolzen" (the bolt) would be the screw keeping the World Machine together, but doesn't take the shape of the mountain into account.

Starbrow: Sternenstirn

Wideread: I seem to recall "der Vielbelesene"

Dunstop could be the adjective dun (German: matt, dunkel, graubraun) plus stop (German Halt as in river port or station). The city sits on Kordros Island on one of the two branches of the upper Oslir River, so I wouldn't associate it with a hilltop (as in Dun's Top). The dun bit could also be to dun (someone) - German "mahnen" - to admonish, exhort, urge, remind (someone).

Paps: der Euter (the udder), maby der Busen (the bosom/tits) if you prefer a less cowish Eiritha.

Pimper was the family name of one of Greg's playtesters/friends who got immortalized in the oasis names in Prax, IIRC. There are few oases on the Nomad Gods map that did not have this background. (Come to think of it, Dunstop may have had a similar origin, although I don't recall reading any similar name in the playtesting credits.)

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The term "giant" applies to actually a very wide range of beings with very different genealogies. In truth, it is about as precise a term as "deity" or "demon". Any really big largely-humanoid entity can be (and is) called a "giant". I really would advise against using the term "giant" to try to make careful classifications.

I wonder whether "humanoid" is a binding qualifier - I think that there are (or at least were) giants who weren't limited to the humanoid shape. And that's not just mountains that may or may not be kneeling or sitting humanoids covered with debris.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm wary of Genert being an Earth giant. Primal Earth god yes, but giant only in he was physically big. The whole giant thing is a bit too much of a norse mythology crossover. Physically big as in the whole continent, the part we are referring to is the conscious god part, not the physical size. Clearly when he dies, the continent remains, devolved/evolved into his daughters and sons - the land goddesses - apart from the Wastelands which is his core being. Following this line of though the mountains are part of his body, so the true giants are his are his children.

That logic makes the dragons who form entire mountain ranges or that leave deep valleys when they take off children of Genert as well. IMO the Elder Giants aren't much different from dragons in taking their environment in to form huge bodies. This is similar to the Black Eater taking in the troll armies at the Battle of Night and Day to form its body. And, in case of the Elder Giants, we know what happens when parts of the body are ripped off - go visit the Thogsarm Hills north of Pavis. (Has anyone ever tried mining these hills for the bones that might be found there?)

Genert was the first of a type of earth giant, but not necessarily the first giant - those ancients mentioned in the Annilla cult possibly predate the Green Age. From the looks of it, Genert and the various giants of the Eastern Rockwoods and further east or west were on friendly terms.

I do think that Pocharngo could cause horrible mutations on gods and comparable entities, too. However, gods being able to multilocation, multiform etc., they might be able to amputate that chaotic mutation, and possibly destroy it - remaining mutilated. When they did not manage to destroy the tainted thing, we get a chaos monstrosity. Where they didn't manage to sever all chaotic taint, the cancer would grow on.

There may have been gods etc. like Vivamort who were given the choice to perish or to arrange themselves with their chaotic nature. This will have led to chaotic deities of the elements etc., entities like Urain.

42 minutes ago, Martin said:

I just feel to me it feels more comfy to have caladra as an Earth goddess...after all caladraland is named after her

I know we have exceptions like Heortland or Pamaltela but on the whole lands are named after earth deities so it just makes sense to me...

Typical Gloranthan country names end on -ela after the stem of a land goddess (Seshna, Frona, Ketha, Jrusta) or a ruling god (Genert, Pamalt, Vith, Wenel), -ia or -os after the stem of a land goddess (Esrola, Pelora, Manira(?), Ramala, Ralia, Teshna, Slonta, Vrala, Azila?, Sentana?). There are only a few -land countries, Heortland and Caladraland in Kethaela, Corolaland in Ralios, Rindland in Seshnela. Heortland is the land of the Heortlings. I would think that Caladraland would be the land of the Caladrings. There is no indication that Caladra is regarded as a land goddess.

Thoughts about the material culture of the Caladralanders

These are suggestions rather than known facts...

Diet

Slash-and-burn agriculture doesn't use the plow, but still allows for grain cultivation alongside all kinds of vegetables and roots (supplying starch). However, I cannot thing about any vegetarian culture of spear-men. The spear is both a military and a hunting implement, and may be used for herding purposes, too.

What husbandry do the Caladralanders keep? If they keep cattle, it would be a breed specialized on browsing the forested slopes. The higher pasture probably is too broken for cattle, but fine for goats or sheep. The area around the settlements would be good for pigs, possibly of a smaller size than the lowland or forest breeds of Maniria. Marmots might be kept for meat and animal fat, too.

I expect a variety of colorful fowl to cohabitate with the humans. Peacocks of various sizes, possibly parrot variants feeding on wild fruit of the upper forest, pigeons, maybe some chicken breeds, too. Hardly any water fowl for lack of sizealy bodies of water. There are rivulets and small streams almost everywhere, but few water courses you couldn't jump across (unless they dug themselves deep canyons), and few depressions acting as catchment basins.

Do the Caladralanders keep animal companions? I'd hesitate to give them alynx or dogs, but perhaps they have mustelids or mongoose to keep pests down. Trained hunting birds are a possibility.

What is there to hunt? Small deer, wild pigs or rodents, monkeys, birds of any size and lifestyle, a few larger feline predators (puma? leopard/jaguar?), a breed of bears, tree lizards, snakes, frogs, salamanders, locusts, wild bees, ants,

I don't see much opportunity for fishing except in water-filled calderas, and there probably more amphibians than regular fish. Lots of water insects wherever it remains wet, though.

A couple of customary food insects might round out the diet. Possibly some variant of locust included.

Clothing

Fur and skin and birdskin (with feathers attached), weaves from feathers, plant fibre (possibly from palm-like leaf fronds rather than plant stalks (as for linen) or cotton). I don't see much potential for wool in that climate, although some kind of angora might be harvested.

Housing

As slash-and-burn farmers, we can assume either a certain mobility of their homesteads or otherwise a tula around permanent settlement sites with a migration pattern of the agricultural areas.

Or a combination thereof –. a permanent, fortified winter settlement site also serving as a refuge in case of invasions, and temporary settlements among the current field areas during the farming season.

The Guide tells us that the Caladralanders sow their fields and then leave to pursue other activities. This still can mean that they use temporary huts while in the neighborhood of the fields – both preparing the plots, and harvesting them.

Caladraland is probably the warmest spot in central Genertela, both with geothermal heat and mild coastal climate. The rugged terrain makes it possible to avoid wind exposure, or to seek it. Permanent structures will choose defendable sites – both against the elements (storm, ash, lava flows, earthquakes and hill slides) and against hostile visitors, whether human or beast.

Building materials will be wood (for frames and roof support, and woven branches for wall segments), volcanic rock or ash (which might be processed for some kind of lime cement taking over where other places use clay for plaster). Roofs should survive the occasional rain of hot rocks or ash, so thatch might be avoided for permanent buildings. Summer huts on the other hand might use huge leaves for thatching and walls.

I wonder whether the Caladralanders cultivate strangling figs or similar vines for wall segments, hedges or even bridges

I'm a bit curious about Caladralander storage solutions. Storage places need to keep of pests, humidity and heat. I see a lot of potential for baskets hung from the rafters, or even hanging platforms or framed nets for larger harvests.

I don't expect much local pottery (though plenty of imports from Esrolia – reused packaging of whichever goods were imported). Clay soil would be rare among the ejecta. Wines probably are stored in skins or possibly barrels, or amphorae traded from Esrolia. I expect many uses for resins harvested from the trees and bushes – incense, spice, conservatves, glues, waterproofing.

Tools

There would be a certain amount of brass available for local mining. (Brass, not bronze...)

Obsidian blades are widely used. The volcano priests might even have techniques to cast lava into raws for knapping.

Hunting tools include the stout spear for close combat, the atlatl/woomera for light, feathered javelins (bow strings are hard to maintain in the climate), throwing sticks (or slim obsidian-bladed axes) for prey in the trees, and nets or fringed lines with adhesives from tree or plant sap for smaller flying prey.

The main agricultural tool is a wood-bladed shovel shaped like an adze to shift the volcanic soil enough to place seeds or saplings, or to dig up roots and beets. Sickles for the harvest of grain are made from obsidian.

4 hours ago, UnlikelyLass said:

This (and several other similar conversations on other forums) is making me want to generate a giant graphviz diagram of all the various BRP-derived systems. A kind of family tree. 

André Jarosch prepared one such diagram for this year's booth of Chaos Society.

On 15.11.2015, 20:53:34, Jeff said:

That story does not have Lodril becoming "part-Chaos" as a result of fighting Krarsht. Rather, as a result of that desperate struggle Lodril was "tainted ever afterwards with a violence unlike most fire entities." Most stories of Lodril have him being somehow "polluted" or "tainted" - the Dara Happans claim it is because he exists in the Lower World (and are more concerned about his gross appetites than his violence). This is the Theyalan version of the same - the Theyalans don't consider him polluted by his sensual appetites, but by his violence and destructiveness. 

So the Theyalans see Veskarthan as a shaper only when in bondage, but as a destroyer when released?

Or do they acknowledge that his anger derives from being kept in bondage? He appears cheerful enough when entering Umath's camp as the first guest, probably on his way to his next date with the Land or Earth. Quite likely on his way to fathering Quivin? (I notice that the genealogical circular table in Heortling Mythology has Kero Fin not only as mother of Orlanth but as the mother for his brothers, too - p.11. Also including Urox - a deliberate "contradiction" to the God Learner statement in Cults of Prax that Mikyh was Storm Bull's mother?)

Are there less explosive or more tamed aspects of Veskarthan that are worshipped/embodied by the everyman of Caladraland? (Fire) Spear warrior, Shaper (obsidian knapper, spear maker, builder), slash-n-burn farmer?

And what about the women? Veskarthan is joined to Gata, the ancient earth, older than Asrelia (overall fertility, maternity, bounty, but also primeval desires and demands), or to Asrelia (bounty inside the Earth), or to Esrola (bounty out of the Earth). Do we get scary priestesses or sorceresses in league with earth powers more ancient than what the Esrolians deal with? Joined to the Fire Within the Earth in an eternal "embrace" (euphemized), and probably irritated when bothered too much?

Does anybody regard Veskarthan as the fiery seed of Aether still sloshing around in the Earth? Umath's unborn brothers? The entire concept of the erupting earth is both phallic and hermaphrodite. Volcanoes are phallic wombs. Basalt cones left standing are one thing, calderas send a very different message. GaLodril.

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

I think you are focusing too much about the God Time origins of folk. Are the pre-Roman inhabitants of Britain descended from the Lydians, Trojans, the Belgae, or come from the sea? Are the original peoples of Kethaela the descendants of Durev, Darhudan, or did they come out of the earth from the songs and dances of the goddesses?

Yes - that's exactly what forms the myths about the British, and much of their (and the US) national identities. Look at the impact of those reconstructed myths in the late 19th and early 20th century, all the way up to Achtung! Cthulhu. Look at your own ancestral identity and how you present it to your children.

The Heortlings understand themselves as descended from those of the Vingkotlings who made it to the Dawn. These people aren't Heortlings. They weren't Vingkotlings, but something else - people of Hanoro?

Ok, so the Silver Age survivors huddled in a cave under Solung plateau, forgetting much of what went on before, then "rediscovering" their ancestry. The God Learner C&A got successful here because there are gaps in the ancestral knowledge that could be filled, but it also was well integrated into what was known or rediscovered.

We are told these people are culturally Orlanthi. I'll grant you that they are Theyalan and Kethaelan, but if they are Orlanthi, then the Pelorian Lodrili are, too, unless we find a good ancestral position to say there is a substantial difference.

I've been rereading "Esrolia - Land of 10k Goddesses" a bit, and I find a strange mixture that puts the Grandmothers both in a Green Ageish context and as a relatively recent (Sword and Helm Saga) development. The Three Bad Men include a chronoportated Kodig in what I would call an early Golden Age myth. (Or maybe the special power of Kodig Vingkotsson is that he was a re-incarnation of one of the Three Bad Men?)

Once again, the Caladrans have forgotten a lot, but they have a lot more to forget than the humans who derive their myths just from the Downland Migration.

I still wonder why the Fuel within the Earth is mixed up with cults about the Fire within the Earth. Asrelia's bounty?

Another minor concern is the origin of the Caladralanders. Are they descended from the union between Vestkarthan and Asrelia/Esrola, or the lowfires and the earth handmaidens (as listed with more names that anyone can remember in Thunder Rebels)? I think they are classified under Durevings, along with other Golden Age folk of the lands north of the Spike met in the downland migration.

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Following on from the  Practicing sorcery: any material components? topic: 

I thought I'd mention one of the discoveries I had in doing the spirit magic for HeroQuest Glorantha. Spirit Magic users can learn rituals that will do things like summon a specify spirit. These are clearly different from a charm. A charm is a spirit in an object that will do a specific task for it's "owner". But a ritual is a set of knowledge based tasks that produces a particular result every time. Waha Khans can learn to summon special spirits - The Founders and Borabo Nightmare the cult spirit of retribution. Doesn't this sound like sorcery with specific limitations (must be a khan)? Theists can also learn rituals.

Back in RQ3 rituals were presented as a common approach to magic that isn't done on the fly, by a single person.

Rituals are involved in starting a heroquest, in worship/veneration/ecstatic communion, and even in preparing a charm. Basically, in all advanced forms of magic.

Every Praxian male learns the ritual of the Peaceful Cut. It is clearly a spirit magic - a release of the spirit for rebirth - but it requires knowledge and skill. You don't just take a charm and off goes the spirit.

The sentence "sorcery is something you know" is a vast simplification. Just reading a grimoire won't activate a spell, you need to direct the energies to effect a spell, through the energetic channels and nodes that the grimoire can direct you to. You draw on that Otherworld, draw it in, let it build up around you.

In case of the specific summoning of a Founder, you draw close the spiritual realm of that founder. The specific limitation "must be a khan" sounds like a theist concern. (And no, I don't think it is a question of having the regalia in order to be able to summon - or rather invite - the Founder.) And the final element still is the personal negotiation between the Khan and the Founder to convince the Founder to join his tribe.