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Joerg last won the day on November 17

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About Joerg

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    Gloranthan studies
  • Birthday 01/03/1965

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    Former president of Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft aka Chaos Society, Glorantha know-it-all (almost), some mentions in Glorantha publications
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    Occasional HQG, RQ and Cthulhu
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    Into rpgs since1984, into world building since the 70ies, into RQ since 1989, active on RQ-Daily and successors since 1993

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  1. Caladra may be Ga-Lodril. Lodril is known in the west as Ladaral (or "Laddie"). "a" to "o" is certainly within the range of normal dialect changes in British English. (And George Bernard Shaw said what there is to be said about phonetics in the English language...)
  2. But then, it doesn't appear like agriculture existed in Dara Happa prior to the coming of the Oslir as a consequence (among others) of Umath pushing his parents apart, lifting off the sky dome while pushing the earth cube into the sea. HIs failure using military force is probably a case of "even Worf was beaten", but his wetlands marriage gives him that role afterwards. The Theyalan pronunciation for Shargash is "Jagrekriand". (Much like that of Lodril is "Veskarthan".) The first time I saw the name "Jagrekriad" was in King of Sartar. If his demons are the Shadzorings, then Shadzor would be the name of the lord of those demons. Alkor may have undergone a quite traumatic experience, possibly a sexual one with him in the non-male role. Or he may have been flensed, and only received his red skin from that trauma. Eiritha is not your usual "favorite crop" land goddess as those goddesses mentioned in the Sourcebook (p.3 - Seshna, Frona, Ralia, Pelora, Teshna, Kralora). Genert's Garden appears to be Ernalda's body, much like Saird and Maniria. (No idea wheree that leaves Balazar and the Elder Wilds, though.) Her Earth Rites are kin to those of Ernalda and grant some mutual access. Eiritha has Hykim/Mikyh as one parent, and Genert/Ernalda as the other. Pick your couple. The majority of the Beast Riders trace their founders as sons of the Storm Bull and Eiritha. This doesn't make them storm people any more than the Malkioni (after all, Malkion is the son of Aerlit, a storm god, too.) The Orlanthi peoples are the product of the Theyalan salvage of myths from the patchwork that Arachne Solara's Web had created as the World of Time. The Lightbringer missionaries went out not just to instrluct the other survivors of the Greater Darkness in how they could contact the gods within Time, but also to collect those fragments of stories that their own ancestors had forgotten, patching together pieces that looked sufficiently as a fit. The Theyalan magic (aka rune magic) then reinforced those patchwork stories as the main way the Middle World interfaced with the Hero Planes, and established the consensus for that place. The Jrusteli myth researchers stole those methods and consensus, and then applied their Logic to the Theyalan patchwork, giving it a sequence that the original Theyalan patchwork may have lacked.
  3. Dendara is the sister of Oria, which gives her earth ancestry. Much like Ernalda has been portrayed occasionally as the spiritual side of the earth, with Esrola as the physical aspects and Maran as the destructive ones. This Oria-Dendara relationship is similar, which makes the presentation of Dendara as an alternative to Ernalda in RQ3 somewhat sensible. The goddess of the Hearthfire is Mahome, a lowfire daughter of Lodril/Veskarthan, and in Thunder Rebels an adoptive subcult of Ernalda. When it comes to Orlanthi, six out of seven women worship Ernalda. Among other Theyalan humans, that number may be lower, or even zero (e.g. the Ingareens). Yelmalio is mostly an Orlanthi cult, and has been such since the Second Age (though maybe known by a different name). Their women may (6 out of 7 again) worship Ernalda or Dendara, depending on how Dara Happa-phile they are. Full Lunars don't worship deities by gender. The non-Lunars in the empire and the provinces do, though. But then Pelorians sually (I guess another 6 out of 7) don't initiate to a single cult, but support their holy folk of acceptable cults as a mass of lay members, having the holy folk cast their blessings for them. Or they might initiate to Daka Fal. But their holy folk worship womens' deities like Oria, Dendara, Surensliba, Biselenslib, Thilla, Uleria, Naveria, ... and of course people worship the Lunar deities on the side without being initiated or illuminated, like the Emperor. With the prevalence of the Seven Mothers in the provinces, I expect Lunarized Orlanthi to have less than six out of seven women worshiping Ernalda. Hon-eel is a good replacement in the maize-growing lands - both Lunar and Earth. So yes, a vast majority of female initiates is initiated to the Cult of Ernalda. Pelorian deities have a lot less initiates, even though their lay membership may vastly outdo anything the Heortlings can muster. With the Malkioni west intersecting with the Theyalan furthest expansion, Ernalda is the go-to deity for female initiates, with land goddesses an alternative, or an alternative name for the same cult. Orlanth and Lodril, rather, with local forms like Waha or Votank occasionally outdoing the big ones. The Bull god (when not being Orlanth) might rival Lodril in numbers of initiates. The greatest number of Yelm worshipers is among the horse nomads. In Dara Happa and neighboring lands, only the nobility initates to Yelm. Eiritha is an excuse for a land goddess. Land goddesses are sometimes interpreted as Ernalda, sometimes as something separate. The God Learners dared to tamper with land goddesses, but they didn't mess with Ernalda. The Sourcebook (p3, 6) gives Ernalda the lands of Maniria and Saird and Genert's Garden, plus all the drowned places towards the Spike. Ralia's land is separate, even though the Green Goddess of Ralios is Ernalda in all but name. Pelora is separate, too. Thanks, and sorry for being not as enlightening. I dozed off before sending that... Entekos as the goddess of measuredly moving or still Air in the center of the storm isn't that weird, is it? The contradiction is there, and it is known - Brastalos is another manifestation of the Eye of the Hurricane, and so is Molanni. Definitely on the level of "an aspect of" or "another mask of", with added Kralori baggage (different names for the emperor in Kralorela, draconic features, mysticism....) One thing about Dendara in Dara Happa is that she is the cult for noblewomen, with other women left to Oria or some of the -eria goddesses. None comes to mind that isn't another form or son of Lodril. At least not on the Surface World - if you wish to develop an underworld ecology, such deities are likely to crop up. I haven't seen the runes of Togaro. The boiling ocean might have Heat, but then its main rune is Water. The Brass Mostali handle Heat, not Light (although molten copper emits white glow, and molten bronze still a bright orange). They generate heat by flame or by magic. Most deities with a heat characteristic haven't lost the light of the flame. When Fire is stolen, it is usually the full amount of fire. There are only three deities who have Cold without Darkness - Himile, the origin of that power, Valind, his ally, and Inora, Himile's daughter by Kero Fin. Shadow is a little more widespread - Argan Argar has it (and thus the Only Old One), his mother Xentha has it, and Moorgarki held onto it. Light without Heat or Flame is fairly common among the lesser celestials. I have speculated on Sea having two similar sub-forms, with Heler representing the salt-less variant of the isotonic water, and Nelat's brine the other, caustic end. Earth only has Dark Earth as its variety/internal antithesis. The Copper Sands or the Dead Place might represent the opposite. Storm is too young to have differentiate thus, unless you want to philosophize on Still Air. Moon has phases and underwent a color cycle. On the whole, I don't think that elemental sub-runes have much to say in terms of temperament and personality beyond those of the parent elements.
  4. Not quite. A colleague belt buckles salesman of Greg who knew about his stories and the boardgame idea happened to be at the printer when the first print run ever of D&D was delivered, and he bought a copy for Greg. Apparently Greg loved the concept and loathed the execution (i.e. how the rules were written).
  5. Sure, that was her second price. Her first price would have been to become ruling Queen of Dragon Pass, with Sartar has the junior partner in the relationship. It is in King of Dragon Pass that you can lose to your partner (the FHQ or the Luminous Stallion King) in the last part of the contest, IIRC. You can of course come in only second in the race for her hand, too. Why didn't the Windstop favor the Grazers? Their bonded walkers (the Vendref) didn't produce any grain that year, and the pasture was frozen for half the year. How would they have profited from that? They may have had the chance to graze their herds in Sikithi Vale, where the Glowline protected from the Windstop, and harvests could be brought in fairly normally, but the Windstop still was a big blow against their wealth. The appearance of the Feathered Queen appears to be an old Pentan prophecy. It certainly features in the prophecies for the Hero Wars in Dragon Pass. But the other thing that happened was that after a century of being the only humans to graze the Pass region, there was a lot of change, pastures were lost to the migration pattern, and cheeky Orlanthi started farming in Grazer core regions, too. The old leadership had no good recipe for the problems, and it was time for doing things another way. makes me have to ask. What is the the official stance one the Great Compromise? Doeas it just mean the gods can't directly (i.e. personally) work upon things or stomp around inside Time as I belive. Or does it mean they're literally frozen, unable to move as much as a finger or even notice anything outside of motals calling upon them. Essentially trapped as an existence of the "past" where they're constantly always and simultaniously doing and being eveyrthing that was before Time and nothing else. Beacause in the later case they might as well not exist as consious or even sentient forces. The Gods cannot do anything within Time without their worshipers causing this. They don't even have much of an agency when it comes to accepting or refusing worshipers, other than through divinations and thus indirect orders to their priesthood. All the pasts up to the Dawn (or possibly up to the conception of Time in the Ritual of the Net) are still out there, and may be or have been altered by mortals (re-) emphasizing other outcomes. Contacting a deity via the rites may fail the Turing test. Confronting the deity in their myths or in their domain outside of Time is a different proposal, as is manifesting (or killing) the deity (often in a breach of the Compromise) in the Middle World. In the interval between Orlanth passing the Flames of Ehilm and the Ritual of the Net. All the rest of Godtime still exists, too. Even if the deities had made up for good, their worshipers can undo that by introducing a new movement towards that rivalry. The capture of Whitewall and the ritual killings of Orlanth and Ernalda were such a mortal intervention, grown from long-term plotting by Dara Happan houses like the Assiday. Whenever there is a major change in the world that involves the Orlanthi, some will be on the side of change, others will oppose it with all their might. The Bright Empire is a special case as even the allies of Arkat managed to vilify Arkat after the final battle in Dorastor, creating a mainstream that rejects both Nysalor and Arkat. Compare the EWF. The traditionalist Orlanthi were opposed to getting too friendly with the dragons in, but the ones who made the EWF a success (for a while) were Orlanthi, too. If you have The History of the Heortling Peoples, read Lokamayadon's account of the Battle of Night and Day. His faction of the Orlanthi in this battle are the Tarumathings, followers of the High Storm that he had discovered and embodied. They supported the Bright Empire, an organisation that managed to unite the known lands of Genertela under a leadership with Theyalan (Orlanthi) roots. As for Light Orlanthi - at the Dawn, they named themselves "People of the Dawning", Theyalans. Obviously they welcomed the return of the sun, and life mostly like it had been good. There were those who had special problems with other folk - e.g. with overbearing Serpent Beast folk like the Pralori. For people in that situation, the rivalry between Storm and Sky was a theoretical consideration far removed from their actual existential problems. Having the sun back was good. Orlanth didn't just slay the Emperor, he also conquered the sky, and unlike the Middle World he also successfully defended it against Chaos. The Star Captains of the Orlanthi tribes and their folowers were a form of Sky Orlanthi IMO.
  6. KataMoripi is a Pelorian or Pelandan name for the Sky Witch Enjata Mo, so I assume that Dark Dendara had a role to play in Peloria, too. How much this is tied to Entekos is yet another question.
  7. Shargash: two deities in one, IMO. The Green God of Alkoth was a strongman and fertility bringer. If you look at the location of Alkoth, I doubt very strongly that the wetlands around the city had demand for slashand-burn agriculture. As Tolat on Trowjang, he finds the conditions to be the patron of slash and burn, and probably for the Zaranistangi, too, but the Zaranstangi held sway over some of the rice-growing regions, too (Melib, Teshnos, Ralios) and appear to have avoided the dry farming lands in between. Much like Orlanth, Shargash has a feat as regulator of the wild river, as water manager, and in his case, that's an essential for the rice farming that dominates Henjarl and the immediate surroundins of Alkoth. His initial resistance against Umath was passive-aggressive, bracing for the impact. After throwing Umath off his original course, he began to exchange missiles with the invader. Then both he and Umath crash into the ground and continue into the Underworld. In the Underworld, Shargash adopts the traits of Shadzor. Or possibly is hollowed out and entered by Shadzor, creating something very different from a celestial son (or daughter) of Yelm. Verithurus is another celestial daughter of Yelm turning red from this experience, also from interaction with Umath (getting pregnant). These sons occupied opposite positions around Raibanth, and in the Darkness (according to Yelmic time, 30K years later) they re-appeared reborn as twins to Dark Dendara. Another name for Alkoth is Hellgate, but when exactly did this Hellgate manifest, and was Shargash's armring a plug? Hell has little business being connected to the Surface World of the Golden Age, at least not before Shargash's Underworld experience.
  8. Ninjaed again... 😥 The first appearance of Ernalda in print seems to be Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha - Gods of Earth (now part of the Sourcebook). There are numerous land goddesses in Greg's western stories, like Britha, Seshna, Kala, or Vadela. Greg may be guilty of that... if you look at the Malkioni genealogies, you will find mortal demigods marrying goddesses (for lack of other females) by the dozen. Females are so rare that the daughters of Malkion (Menena and Eule) married their brothers (Horal and Talar). Even so, Malkion (at least a demigod himself) had several goddesses and demigoddesses as wives, like Phlia (mother to the higher caste sons, the aforementioned daughters, and Horal) - a tilnta or fertility/love nymph, Kala (mother of Dromal) - a land or mountain goddess in Brithos, and Waertag's mother Jeleka, another Wartain tribe niiad. Women are mainly good as wives, damsels in distress, seductresses, or crones. To be fair, Issaries, LM, Eurmal, Chalana Arroy and Humakt are far more universal than just limited to Orlanth. Having Mastakos is overkill, but then Orlanth is grandson of Larnste and would be a likely heir if not for his paternal heritage of Storm. Yelm used to have all the rune owners (except for Umath) in his celestial pantheon. Rune ownership has few in-game consequences, other than for Resurrection and Sever Spirit as resuable spells. And Chalana is part of the Yelm pantheon, and Humakt is the Carmanian death god, too. (Though wasp-headed there.) The Malkioni don't have gods. But they have all the runes, all the rune gods, as false gods in their myths, with sorcery to contact and in case of doubt command them. Dendara being an enigma: My first encounter with Dendara was in the RQ DeLuxe booklet Introduction to Glorantha where Ernalda was given as the sample cult, with Dendara as a light contrast to give Yelm's wife next to Orlanth's. That slightly shortened long cult write-up is fairly good, but it is missing from the Cults Compendium. So what is Dendara? She is a celestial deity of lower origin, sharing her planetary representation with Entekos. Hers isn't a dominant elemental connection. How much is Entekos Dendara, and vice versa? In a way, Dendara is "Earth in the Sky", while Entekos is the Middle Air and the body of Dendara. Entekos is not Sedenya. That's the TL:DR of the Entekosiad. Plentonius names Sedenya as the False Sun Goddess, and condemns her (but then he is oh so virtuous in his condemnations). The celestial rune for Entekos is a fragmented square reassembled into a plus inscribe into a circle (or Light Rune). Earth in Sky. No sign of a spiral or movement, only her (absence of) legs on Gods Wall indicate any air properties. (This combination of runes is close to what Umath was born from, though. Earth and Sky in a single glyph might well be the Dara Happan approximation for Storm or Air.)
  9. What is your source for that? Lokamayadon's timeline in History of the Heortling Peoples p.33 doesn't mention any conflict between Loky and the Talastari. Plenty of conflict between Loky and Rastalulf, and Loky and Haradangian, but none at home. Loky had long been on the Dorastan Council as Speaker for Storm when Haradangian (and the trolls and 'newts) broke away. Nobody from his own tribe had resisted his accepting that position. All of that was forced upon the Heortlings, but apparently embraced by the Talastari. And they had the Battle of Night and Day as their brutal subduction. Nice quip. Still, your facts were only of Fox News quality. Lokamayadon is condemned in hindsight, by the victors, and Rastalulf and Haradangian get promoted from losers to martyrs for the good cause. But the Orlanthi were split about halfways about the issue of Nysalor. The Heortlings and their allies (and the Esrolians as allies of the Only Old One) kept a closed front, but so did the Talastari on the opposite side.
  10. Joerg


    Forced intercourse happens in Glorantha, and is not treated as "turn into broos" rape. The Vadrudi host took "wives" from the sea, and those ancestresses of the Piscoi merfolk were anything but volunteers. "Forced consent" is as ugly a phrase (and deed) as is rape. (The ancestresses of the Cetoi may actually have gone for a voluntary marriage of protection against the rest of the host.) And that is ignoring cultural differences like the Transatlantic one whether hugs and kisses are first or third base. Rape is rare in Glorantha, and there are no sexually transmitted diseases (other than broo larvae and a general risk of infection upon contact with infected folk). The existence of Thed and the avenging goddesses shows that rare is a far cry from absent. The interaction between Satyrs and nymphs or other humanoid females is borderline, as are the Trickster seductions using magic. (The entire subject of using seduction as a power tool is sensitive, or insensitive.) Nice and edificing stories like the saga of Wayland the Smith have stuff like "forced consent". You don't need swan maidens without this theme. Or fox women without the inversion of this theme. Glorantha has these stories, too. Like Greya's Story. The Pentans appear to have a greater immunity to broo-ification, or a vastly different concept of rape.
  11. Calling the Vendref slaves is wrong. Slaves are a trade good. The Vendref live in self-organized villages and have roughly the same rights as many Lodrili in Dara Happa have. By Orlanthi standards, that amounts to vile oppression, but by Solar standards the Vendref have a pretty normal deal. The Vendref have less liberties than semi-free Orlanthi clansfolk (formerly concisely known as cottars) have, true. But they are significantly better off than the unfree (thralls - i.e. slaves whose offspring don't inherit the slavery) in Sartar. (Only) Vendref can join the Humakti bodyguard of the FHQ. And Barntar is a deity whose best known heroquest is a variant of the Orlanth and Aroka quest, which involves the Arming of the quester. More than the prohibition against weapons, the Vendref are prohibited from riding or owning horses. I wonder whether they have donkeys instead? Someone in Glorantha must breed them, or Issaries would be without mules. There are Orlanthi in Ralios who still think that Nysalor was one of the better ideas of their ancestors. After all, the Bright Empire was instrumental in defeating the Evil Emperor of the West until Gbaji (Arkat) converted other Orlanthi in Ralios to fight the Bright Empire. The Talastari remember Lokamayadon and the Bright Empire as a high point in their power in the world. Only the Heortlings, Arkat's Korioni and Talor's Fronelan allies were active foes of the Bright Empire, which had a high number of Orlanthi fighting on their side throughout the wars, too.
  12. Horse queens with feathers occur among all the Pentan-descended nomads (and the Galanini queens aren't much different even though they have no Pentan ancestry). Hon-eel's contest in the Redlands that led to the creation of the satrapy of Oraya was against a Pentan horse and earth priestess, too, and one of similar heroic stature. (Sourcebook p.178) It is possible that Hon-eel interfering with the Earth rites in Tarsh in 1490 was instrumental in transferring the sovereignty and avatarship of Sorana Tor to the FHQ. The FHQ is not just a priestess but also a shaman, at least in older sources (which insisted that the Grazers were a predominantly animist society). I think that the rivalry never ended. The bid for friendship on Orlanth's Lightbringer Quest just added another layer to it. Cloud cover vs. clear skies does remain an everlasting struggle in most of Glorantha (the Skyfall being a notable exception, and the Storm Bull storm probably another one). That silly riddling custom between Wind Lords and Light Sons is another remainder of this rivalry. All of Godtime exists parallel to the world of Time. Most of that Godtime has Orlanth as a rival of Yelm, and Vingkot and his sons as foes of Dara Happa (and much of the rest of the world). The Great Compromise freezes all of that, not just the Ritual of the Net and the emergence from the Gates of Dawn. The moment when Orlanth slew the Emperor is at least as present as the bid for friendship. There's also Shargash/Jagrekriand doing the Emperor's bidding in wounding and dismembering Umath. Then there is history between Dara Happa and the Heortlings. In the Gray Age, Shadzoring demons from Alkoth destroyed or at least harrassed the northern Orlanthi tribes. The horse warlords - emperors of Dara Happa - slew the Lightbringer missionaries. The Second Council retaliated, and ultimately overcame them at Argentium Thri'ile, plundering the wealth the horse warlords had taken from urban Dara Happa. (They refrained from plundering the tripolis, but sending an army of that size into Dara Happan lands was little different from plundering the land raw.) In the Battle of Night and Day, Palangio broke the Compromise. In its aftermath, Palangio suppressed and plundered the Heortlings, and Maniria. In Ralios, Dara Happan forces fought the Ralian Orlanthi rebelling against the Bright Empire, and suffered severe losses against Arkat before he was killed and sent to Hell. At the end of the Gbaji War, the Heortlings led the attack into Dara Happa, whose emperor had sent his most magical warriors to Dorastor to fight Arkat. The Heortlings won, ended the Khordavu dynasty, took lots of loot and lot of tribute southward for the nine years they held to the power in those lands, then had to be fought to finally leave. The reign of the Dragon Sun over Dara Happa as part of the EWF was the next Orlanthi crime against Dara Happa, at least as far as the Dara Happans are concerned. The retaliations against the EWF that followed - especially the raid of 1042 - was never forgotten by the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass and Saird (many of the latter had been allies in the fight against the EWF, but were looted in transit of that raid). Both Orlanthi and Dara Happans blame the Dragonkill to one another. (And the dragons, of course.) The Orlanthi have the more sincere cause in this, but the Dara Happan thirst for vengeance was fueled by that massive loss of manpower. The conquest of Sylila and subsequently the Provinces by Hwarin Dalthippa was seen as a fair retaliation by the Dara Happans, who then had to swallow the bitter pill that the Sylilan barbarians received the status of a heartland satrapy and equal standing with their own nobility. I guess they always blamed the Sylilans to be way too soft to the Provincials. That the Orlanthi couldn't be trusted showed once more in the Battle of the Falling Hills, which weakened the Lunar military so much that Sheng's barbarians could overrun the Empire. Under Sheng, there were plenty Dara Happan noble houses willing to rise against the Red Emperor to renew their privileges as Solar nobility - pretty much the picture you want for your campaign start. The Assiday involvement in the conquest of Sartar and its subsequent wilfull mis-administration is one of the latest expression of Dara Happan hostility against the Storm Barbarians. The Tarshites would have been happy to convert Sartar into another Seven Mothers-dominated provincial kingdom under their control, but the Dara Happans wanted revenge, and set out to destroy those barbarians. (It helped that the land remained wealthy from trade even after it had been looted dry of civilized goods during the conquest.) The disgraces towards Euglyptus (Building Wall Battle, Battle of the Hill of Orlanth Victorious) and him being replaced with a provincial barbarian as governor was the next slap into the face of Dara Happan revanchism. Enacting the Windstop was Tatius' latest (and biggest recent) atrocity against the Orlanthi. Summoning a dragon to kill Tatius was the latest (and biggest recent) atrocity against the Dara Happans (and the Lunars). Each side in this ongoing conflict sees only enemy atrocities and justified retaliation. A beautiful friendship looks different.
  13. While the Pure Horse Folk of Prax who became the Grazers are entirely un-Orlanthi, keeping human slaves is not at all what sets them apart. Worshiping the Sun Horse and the Golden Bow makes them ancient foes, and the reign of the Horse Warlords in Peloria that led to the Second Council wars and finally Argentium Thri'ile was the foundation of their beef with the Orlanthi. The Pure Horse Folk of Prax were actually invited by the rulers of Orlanthland (which was becoming the EWF around that time) as a buffer against the nomads. They became allies of the Jrusteli of Feroda and Robcradle, and foes of the Elder Giants of the Rockwoods. When Pavis set up his city, one Pure Horse leader performed the Zebra magic and became king of that city, splitting off the Zebra tribe from the rest of the Pure Horse Folk. For a while, the Zebra tribe ruled supreme in northeastern Prax, but without the EWF to back up the city of Pavis and the Pure Horse Folk, first Pavis fell, then the horse nomads were overcome at their final Praxian battle of Alavan Argay. The survivors found refuge with and adoption by Ironhoof the Centaur and became the Grazers. As the resettlement started, the Grazers lost hold of most of the lands between the Crossline and the Deathline, but managed to subdue the immigrants to the southwestern corner, which they still hold against the more successful immigrants in Tarsh and Sartar. Some of the displaced clans joined the Pol Joni and returned into Prax, eager to fight their ancient enemy Jaldon. The next direct confrontation of Orlanthi with Pentans was with the Opili tribe/nation during Sheng's ascendancy, uniting the Kingdom of Tarsh and the Lunar Empire against those nomad invaders. Derik Pol Joni stole their sacred bull and grew his Praxian cattle herds from this stock. The relationship between Grazers and the surrounding Orlanthi remains volatile. The betrayal of Tarsh King Yarandros (who stole Goldeneye horses for his cavalry) cost the Grazers yet more territory. When the original FHQ contested with Sartar for rulership of the Pass, she lost the contest. The Grazers remain as mercenaries in the politics between the Orlanthi kingdoms and queendoms around them, usually profiting from the plunder they collect as the hill barbarians fight one another or the Lunars. Lunar Tarsh or the imperial forces are little better than the Orlanthi in hiring the Grazers and then cutting off a significant part of their lands (Sikithi Vale) by putting it into the Glowline. The Windstop wasn't favoring the Grazers, either, even though they served as mercenaries for the Lunars during that time. With their domination over the Vendref, the Grazers have become a lot less nomadic, remaining rather close to "their" hamlets of Vendref who supply grain as fodder for their horses. The Vendref on the other hand owe their rather privileged status as walkers under horse nomad rule to the support they gave to the FHQ in her struggle for domination over the Grazers - magical, financial and military support. As oppressed Orlanthi compare, they don't have the worst luck - they are probably tied with the peasants of Jonatela in terms of oppression, and Ramalia is likely to outdo other places. Orlanthi in Holut in Ralios are worse off, too, and occupied Sartar had a couple of tribes that were hit very badly too (not talking about those that were annihilated).
  14. Yelm became identified as the major god of the setting at the time of the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile. The Dara Happan influence grew stronger in the Bright Empire of Nysalor, and the lore that came out of that period had Yelm in the Orlanthi myths, possibly also thanks to Harmast's two Lightbringers' Quests. The nature of Yelm is an enigma, really. The Jenarong dynasty worshiped Kargzant, then Yu-Kargzant, but their sun god was bridled during the reign of the sons of Vuranostum late in the first century, fighting a barbarian god emerging from below, wielding an iron sword (GRoY p.34). (There are no Theyalan stories corroborating this. By that late in the first century, at least the trolls had met the Shadzorings, and likely horse warlords, too. Hardly anyone else has shared observations of this conflict.) Avivath revealed Antirius and the Sunspear early in the second century. It may have been the efforts of Khordavu that made the Orlanthi acknowledge that Yelm was the Evil Emperor of their Lifebringer quest. And Dara Happan scholars kept postdating the re-ascent of Yelm - Plentonius' GRoY made Khordavu the returner, the later Fortunate Succession offers Khorzanelm and the Sunstop as the return date. Throughout the First and Second Age, there were periods of Dara Happan supremacy, but there were also periods of Dara Happan decline. The EWF took over the Dara Happans from within, then lost it again. In the Third Age, the Carmanian Shah Cartavar conquers Dara Happa, and his son and grandson also held the title of Emperor of Dara Happa. Then came Teelo Estara and Yelmgatha. There are a few attempts after Yelmgatha yielded the Empire to Takenegi, but none succeeded. Sheng Seleris didn't attempt to undergo the Ten or Eleven Tests, and neither did any of his henchmen manage to do so. Not even after the death of Takenegi. Not too much is known about the internal politics, apart from the names of a few satrapial clans in the Guide, and a few (probably highly non-canonical) names in Champions of the Red Moon - a weird product that would have been better if two or three smaller organizations had been presented as rivals, rather than to concentrate on one complex with some rather nonsensical portions. (But then, madness is a valued trait among the Lunars.) Then there are a few genealogies mentioning clans descended from the Emperor. Still, IMO taking a look at the inner workings of the empire would be the less disruptive approach to rewriting the Hero Wars outline. I don't know what kind of sources you used to get this impression. The Fazzur story shows the deep rifts inside the Lunar kingdom of Tarsh (which is allied to the Eel-ariash clan), and between Tarsh and the Assiday family of Yuthuppa (Tatius). The Lunars without the Dara Happans wouldn't be an empire, or a very different one. They have managed to inherit both the Dara Happan and the Carmanian emperorship, and they annexed Saird, too. The Arrolians are a good example for the non-imperial Lunar way. Without imperial Dara Happan and Carmanian authority, the Lunar movement might look a lot like that, or the Eel-ariash projects. The unified solar pantheon and Antirius and Yelm in particular required Orlanth bridling Kargzant, a celestial struggle in the first century of Time which apparently did not count as a breach of the Compromise. We have no Orlanthi sources for this event, though. Within Time, Yelm is Emperor by Orlanth's grace and preparation. The Dara Happans claim that Yelm's purity caused the rebel to clear Yelm's path. The Orlanthi claim whim. The Grazers have neither the ambition nor the manpower to return to Peloria - they have the cosiest place any horse nomads have claimed for their own since the horse warlords have been pushed out of the Pelorian basin (twice - Argentium Thri'ile in the Dawn Age, and in the Fifth Wane). Old Pavis was the most civilized Pentan kingdom that wasn't based on conquest of the previous population. If the FHQ has ties to Ernalda, it is mainly to the Orendana the Queen aspect/subcult. Her authority in Dragon Pass is as the avatar of Kero Fin, formerly provided by Sorana Tor who doesn't seem to have fully incarnated any more since her marriage to Illaro Blacktooth. There is a dynasty of Sorana Tor-descended priestesses from the Tarsh Twins lineage still at Shaker's Temple, providing another (lesser) source of sovereinty (e.g. used by Saronil).
  15. Joerg


    There is always the taking of slaves and making them obey to your whims. Frat-boy perps' excuses void the risk of becoming a broo. Gloranthan moralty is different from that of the users of this forum (or at least I hope it is... Violence is always an option?). But that goes for ancient world ethics anyway.
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