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Joerg

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Joerg last won the day on July 14

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About Joerg

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    Gloranthan studies
  • Birthday 01/03/1965

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    www.sartar.de

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  • RPG Biography
    Former president of Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft aka Chaos Society, Glorantha know-it-all (almost), some mentions in Glorantha publications
  • Current games
    Occasional HQG, RQ and Cthulhu
  • Location
    Kiel
  • Blurb
    Into rpgs since1984, into world building since the 70ies, into RQ since 1989, active on RQ-Daily and successors since 1993

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  1. Joerg

    Yelm Eclipsed

    Don't be so sure about Shargash. According to Jar-eel channeling Sedenya, Tolat was one of the four rebel gods who brought down Yelm, alongside the Bat (Artia?), Sedenya/Verithurusa, and Rebellus Terminus/young Stormy. Tolat is Shargash if the Grazers worship Yelm. IMO the Southpath never even touches the Sunpath, and the Sunpath never touches the Red Moon even in Summer. "north" should be a mistake. Mythically, the only time when Shargash wasn't south of Yelm (in the sky) was when he collided with Umath. He entered the Underworld near the broken North Pillar. It isn't published where he re-emerged. And when he did, neither Yelm nor Lightfor had ever risen in the east. If the Red Moon is ever eclipsing the Sunpath inside the Lunar empire, then the height of the Red Moon in your model is way too low (or the height difference to the Sunpath is). The planets just pass through Yelm, altering a tiny amount of Yelm's light by adding theirs. It is possible that Yelm's light can pass through or around undiminished, if so such a conjunction could be brighter rather than darker. I agree that the shadow that orbits the Red Moon would darken the sun. Not sure about the glowing side, though. A total eclipse might still only blot out a minimum of half of Yelm, with the other part could be reddened. But then, the orbiting shadow might be a hemisphere with a much bigger radius than the Red Moon. To avoid that, it would have to hover directly above the Crater. I tried various geometries for the shadow problem, and basically it is impossible to avoid. Just as you have the Crown Mountains beyond which you cannot look from below, you have a circle roughly the same size below inside which the moon is visible from any direction. This means that neither Full nor Dead Moon can ever be seen anywhere if you assume that lunar glow spreads in straight lines. On the other hand, we know that the Dead Moon is the absence of Lunar glow, and not the absence of Lunar glow except for that sliver of red on the bottom. Ipso facto some bending of light must happen that prevents transpolar glow to pierce the shadow, and likewise prevents a dark sliver at the bottom of a full moon. (Transpolar in relation to the bottom pole of the moon...) Assuming that the shadow only creeps over the Lunar surface. It is possible to have an orbiting hemisphere or hemi-ovoid of shadow that blots out the bottom on the dark side and allows a glimpse under the skirt on the bright side. You can play through lots of variations for this orbiter if you assume the top-bottom axis as its rotational axis. It might be easier to tilt the ground (and the moon along with that) in your model. The south path zig-zags across the southern half of the sky dome, never even getting near the zenith (the geometrical construct, not the stellar body that bears the same name). The eastern gate has a more or less fixed azimuth (possibly varying slightly with the tilt of the sky dome), the western gate jumps or oscillates across the lower edge of the sky dome as needed.
  2. Yes, a pity. I'll be having a short RQG weekend in about three months, with a couple of people from Northern Germany meeting in a holiday home in the outback for one evening and a full day of gaming. I am to co-GM, and I'll need to come up with a short scenario to illustrate my style of Glorantha gaming in addition to some of the already published scenarios (or possibly published by then, looking into the direction of the Grazelands to see some smoke rising from an EWF ruin). If anybody doesn't mind traveling to Kiel and join the car ride, we still have a place or two. Unlike Middle Earth, Glorantha doesn't have a day's worth of movie to get a glimpse of the possibilities without much insight into the cultures (and whatever one might think about the alterations to the story lines of both the Lord of the Ring and the Lord of the Ring appendixes with The Hobbit mixed in, Jackson and his team did a nerd's job to create the visuals of the cultures). There isn't that much to be learned about the Middle Earth cultures, really. Tolkien did a better job portraying the Beleriand cultures than he did the Ringwar cultures. And you have to be a nerd to know more than three Middle Earth deities (Elbereth, Sauron and Morgoth get occasional spotlight, but that's about all the deity names you get confronted with). Contrast this with the Orlanth pantheon plus the Lunars plus the Trolls. That deities section in RQG stretches on for pages. I hope that these get re-done in the Glorantha starter set as single-sheet each, in the style of Freeform Character info, so a player won't get distracted too much by other stuff. Likewise, the past events could benefit from being shown on a map, and possibly some illustrations of the main actors in those events. Possibly as a special chapter of the Prince of Sartar comic, and with heavy re-use of artwork from other previous publications. But basically, a number of easily accessible cheat sheets for Glorantha. (saves this to his to do list...)
  3. I wonder - would the Crimson Bat be a Loony Toon?
  4. More specifically, there was not that much of a difference between beast totemic ancestry and dragon ancestry. The earliest description of the Beast Rune that I have seen named it the representation of a dragon's scale. I am not sure that the Easterners make much of a distinction between Kralori dragons and Vithelan Phoenixes. Then there is the equivalence between TarnGatHa and Aether, HeenMaroun and Yelm, Metsyla and Antirius. Not yet fully draconic, but enough so to be contacted as such by modern Kralori. Mikaday appears to be the main exception. There is also the theme of the Twin Phoenix saga near the Andin Isles. The God Learner classification in Anaxial's Roster has two solar expressions of the first two beasts before splitting into Hykim and Mikyh, which were both beast and dragon to the God Learners IMO. The Dragon bit wasn't important to the Seshnegi (at least not until the wars with the EWF). Ancient migrations are known, after all we have stories about Basmol's arrival in Tada's Prax (and subsequently him being skinned to prevent him from re-viving). The floods of the Storm Age and Dark Age will have forced some refugee movements of Hsunchen/Hykimi/Fiwan populations, but IMO the expansion migrations of these people happened a lot earlier - probably in the Green Age. (In the "Collision of Worlds" model under the Separate Otherworlds doctrine that Greg discussed at various Tentacles conventions, the interaction of the theist and animist worlds in the north and the south date way back. The Hsunchen dispersal would have happened at this dawn of Gloranthan myth, I suppose.) First Age and earlier documents talk about the Hykimi of western Genertela, AFAIK. Seshnegi contact with Kralorela seems to have been initiated by Guilam D'Estau, the inventor of the False Dragon Ring. The portions of Genert's Wastes bordering to the Shan Shan were just about to be re-discovered as Hidden Greens by the Beast Riders, which indicates a previously highly fragmented nature of the place. Treack Markhor and Avalor may have been the first humans to cross the Wastes from East to West. (This also indicates a rather recent origin of the Iron Forts, or otherwise a different original enemy.) I wonder when the Praxians started to raid Teshnos. The historical maps in the Guide make it look like contact may have been made
  5. Must be a Zorak Zorani. Most trolls avoid religiously to burn their food.
  6. The longer-lived elves have the problem that a generation covers a century of history happening rather than twenty-odd years. True, a vast number of human-only historical events don't apply to them. Another problem might be that inter-forest cooperation may not be very common. Yes, there was the Moonburn of Rist, and the affected elves who fled to Dorastor became the Hellwood Elves, but take e.g. the neighboring Poisonthorns and what did that event mean for their ancestors? So you would have to come up with a timeline for your elf's home forest. Where would that green elf have its roots? The Dagori Inkarth Redwood, some copse in Dragon Pass, some backwater slope of the Mislari in Arstola (which is otherwise pure brown elf), or someplace insignificant in Balazar/the Elder Wilds? Ducks have a quite obscure history, so you would have to make up things local, or create an adventurer ancestor Forrest Gump.
  7. IMO about 150 years longer - the last major Slontan presence in Esvulari lands was about 80 years before the fall of the Clanking City, and afterwards "mainstream" Malkionism came in the shape of the Zistorites or the Brithini of Refuge/Jon Barat. Back when I introduced the notion of e.g. St. Ehilm I didn't mean to suggest that the sun entity revered there had ever been a mortal (though it left the possibility that the entity had been an Erasanchula, one of the immortal human(oid) emanations of the Core Runes in Danmalastan). Ehilm is a sun/fire entity well known in the Lightbringer's Quest, and it was a handy moniker at that time (and now again) to provide a neutral stance in the Elmal/Yelmalio question. The last light defender against both Darkness and Chaos looked to me as the ideal presentation of Esvulari horsemen in Jansholm in predominantly Heortling lands - they may be strange in their worship and all, but they are reliable defenders against those threats. In my first draft of the Aeolian Church 25 years ago (which came out around the same time David Hall's write-up for How the West Was One was made public), I tried to avoid using the Saint appellation for Orlanth, making him the emanation of Malkion that brought the Light back. Playing on the term Trinity may not have been helpful in avoiding the Christian parallel, but "Triangularity" sounds iffy. I do plead guilty for toting the concept of "divine saints" for the rest of the Heortling pantheon when it applied to the Esvulari. These were meant to be deities who were not the direct agents of Malkion, but did good in supporting Orlanth in the Lightbringer task. "Angelic" might have been another way to formulate that, with the same degree of misappropriation as medieval. I did borrow heavily from the Anglo-Saxon transition from paganism to Christianity, which does fall roughly into the historical backdrom of the Artus legend (though completely ignored by the Mallory version). I felt this was warranted as there is no indication that the Esvulari are descended from immortal Brithini - they feel like converts of Theyalan stock. The move away from the terms "church" and "saint" makes using the two main pieces on the Malkioni in the Stafford Library quite problematic, as those texts have these terms (and other HQ1-isms like "liturgists") in droves. (Revealed Mythology, Middle Sea Empire) A revised take on Malkionism, with focus on more than the Rokari sect of Tanisor and Rindland, would be appreciated. Ideally on the same scope as Ttrotsky's churchy take on the West, but creating that Bronze Age monotheism vibe presented in the Guide.
  8. The fun factor is quite limited, yes. It mostly manifests as grumpiness. Nah, that's a fun theory. For all that we know, the Altinae are an immortal race of human-shaped demigods, apparently compatible to the aesthetics of the Malkioni. (But then they were also fascinated by the (mortal) dragon-people of the east and their southern neighbors of Eest.) Where does Avalor fit in here? His journey starts as a God Learner ruler of Teshnos, but he ends up in Loskalm and encounters Halwal there. Including Brithos? As (cast out) celestial beasts, they (or their ancestors) could have made hoof-fall anywhere in the surface world, and multiple times. The pegasi apppear to be different from Hippogriff, but may have lost their wings to other enemies, too. Gamara loses her wings, but there is no mention of beak and claws. A sky origin of Eneral and his horses is more or less in the stories already. I haven't taken a closer look there yet, either. I have no idea whether Greg provided the main outlines of those stories, or whether those are a contribution of David Dunham and Robin Laws to the Gloranthan lore base. The outline of the False Sunhorses bias of the Grazers against the Pentan horse nomad force that was fielded at Karnge Farm (Char-un or Redlands/Opili mercenaries?) suggests a hostility between the hyal breeding Grazers (and former Pure Horse People of Prax, whose other surviving descendants are the Zebra folk of Pavis and Prax) isn't evident in the Hyalorings of Six Ages, who are presented as cattle breeders much like the Opili or the Pol Joni. Thankfully I don't need to assess canonicity any more... But is horse present for Waha's covenant at all? Waha's activity ranges as far west as Sounders River, from where he dug the Good Canal towards the Block, and Day's Rest where he collected Eiritha's daughters. The nearest horse riders were Ulanin the Rider's Orgovaltes of what we now call Sartar, part of the Unity forces and in no need to join the covenant in their wet and fertile homeland. The four lakes of Old Ralios are best described in this text: https://www.glorantha.com/docs/the-enerali-circa-130-st/ The presence of Triolini in these freshwaters (at least on the surface) is somewhat different in concept from the presentation of Zaramaka's offspring in the Sourcebook, but then the Waertain mertribe appears to predate the Cetoi/Piscoi divide and the flight of the Vadrudi. Contrast this to https://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/ which states that the Seshnegi had a huge head start on horseback fighting over the Enerali (who were charioteers in warfare, and riders only in herding/hunting). Really makes me wish to read "Malkion and the horses" from the gospels... which probably means someone has to write this. The Galaninae are matriarchal clans, according to the Guide (p.383). Do we have any hint whether the western Enerali were patriarchal? High Llama Pass, I presume? Kartolin should not yet be in the picture, nor what might lie beyond. (Does Avalor give any hints on how he got from the Genertan Waste to Fronela?) That's a direct parallel to Ifttala as ancestress of the Pendali. There are a couple of regions or countries in Glorantha ending on -os, and all of them are coastal (Slontos, Teshos, Vralos), except for Ralios, unless you count these four lakes as coastline. If Ralios also has the meaning of "horse", then I would modify your "horse land" to "horse shore", describing a habitat not unlike the Camargue. Galin was identified as Galanin's birthplace in Genertela Box, but that tribal list of 130 ST only has the female form Galana among the deities listed there. Yes, that's a theory I already came across when discussing the Broken Council Guidebook with the authors. And the sister may be the origin of the matriarchal Galaninae clans of southwestern Safelster, including the queens of Galin. Now, which of the Enerali tribes would have been the most likely horse riders to fight for the Second Council against the Pelorian Horse Warlords? (RQ2 Uz Lore p.14) According to "Safelster in the First Age", the Enerali began their warfare against the Seshnegi armed with stone axes (and the apparent cultural level of the band ceramic/battle axe people of central Europe), then received the knowledge of bronze working from the Theyalans. This does reduce the advantage brought in by Dari's connection to Ormak Promalte you mentioned earlier with access to metal working, or rephrase it to include the Lightbringer missionaries and their technology. When Greg published his Seshnegi king lists on glorantha.com, he commented on his writings about the dynasties and independent kingdoms of the Pendali and how he felt that those numbers and organisations may have been way too exaggerated for Basmoli chieftains. I had seen those kingdom lists as part of Hrestol's Saga earlier, and my explanation was an unnamed basal human population of Seshna worshipers who provided the agriculture or horticulture for their mixed blood Pendali overlords and their untainted Basmoli cousins who could have formed a second tier warrior nobility. The mixed blood royals and the peasants were absorbed into the Serpent King Seshneg and emerged as Malkioni after the counter-paganism of the late second and early third century. Leaving all options for divine paternity. Candidates include the Storm God, the Sun God, the Horse God and the Smith God. This version of Dari bears some similarity to the role of Damol (as can be deduced between his mentions in the Guide, the Seshnegi King List and Revealed Mythologies). Akin to Arkat / Argrath. Interesting. Any other cases of transgender identities? The Shan Shan (or Hsunchen mountains) protruded all the way south to Teleos. The Sofali are the best known Diroti among the Hsunchen/Fiwan, and the lost Diroti Sofali from the Seabird Army incident in the Orlanth lore must have been westerners for Sofala to be available as transport to Luathela. Possibly from around the Tanier estuary, destroyed before the colony of Frowal was established. Who would have been the people in Slontos to receive them? Kin of the Olodo of Jrustela and Umathela? Neralite sheep has a similar sound to Nevala the (Esrolian/Theyalan) sheep daughter of Esrola. Vrimakites aren't that surprising - a variation of that name appears in the God Learner systematic of beasts in Anaxial's Roster p.209, Mirakas the world bird, also on the next page Avarna the Flyer to complete the Dara Happan Vrimak and Avarnia couple. Oumarani the Phoenix doesn't ring a direct Dara Happan bell, but the Rinliddic names may have somehow made it to Zzabur. The Poralistor Waertagi are the most likely conduit. Sounds like the Sekever wars in more recent publications (Revealed Mythologies, Guide). Is this an alternate spelling of Vrimakites or does this reflect the rumored dragon hsunchen? "Vrikim" sounds like a conflagration of Vrimak and Hykim. Basically the roots of the Serpent Beast Brotherhood in the Guide, which I also blame for the Ralian Ancient Beast Society. Earth Walker? Any chance for those to be pre-WBRM? From the Slontos region, or further east? Is there any hint of beast styles in the Malkioni warrior caste prior to the Pendali wars or on Brithos itself? (And are any of the six tribes other than the Vadeli and the Waertagi mentioned in the pre-WBRM sources, or are these in all likelihood a product of the 1990ies/2000s, created in the course of creating the Stafford Library volumes?)
  9. I wonder when and how Harmast interfered with the Arkatsaga, and when and how Palangio entered the picture. The Theyalan element to the Dari confederation seems to happen mostly off-screen from those stories about the Enerali that @scott-martin mentioned before. The Battle of Night and Day gets presented in Troll Pak, but the Curse of Kin already gets mentioned in RQ1. That's only 2 years after the publication of WBRM (where all the pre-history of Dragon Pass was the Empire of the Wyrms' Friends, and the Crater covered much of the Pelorian bowl). Aerlit is another early form of Orlanth, IMO (alongside Jonat's Resat, and the Enerali versions Humath and Erulat), and Damol could be a key experience if there is ever any Orlanthi activity in Seshnela, even though Damolsket and Damolsten are now part of the Luatha-controlled archipelago. The absence of a moon goddess probably means absence of another celestial goddess than Annilla or Artia? The Genertan wastes probably feature in Avalor's saga, and possibly in the Loper epic. The Zistorite epic seems to draw on the Kingdom of Night and the EWF, which makes it in all likelihood a post-WBRM story. The Poralistor river folk did reach the Thunder Delta as they pushed that second outlet of the Sweet Sea eastward. They appear to be followed by a slightly different blue-skinned evil people - IMO the Vadeli after the Nidan uprising. The enemy of Bisos may have been of Vadeli or Waertagi origin. Mt Turos was the City of Lodril to the Dara Happans, their far western outskirt, and would have had one of the celestial orbs hovering above, at least while the Old Man still was awake. On the whole it is quite weird that the focus of published Glorantha is centered on the WBRM region rather than the previously explored lands. Sure, Greg sank much of Seshneg, Slontos and Kralorela with the fall of the God Learners, and had Snodal shatter Fronelan cohesion (later in the historical timeline, but as one of his earliest stories). To saddle a different horse, around 1470 a clan of Grazelander pony breeders and their herd traversed Esrolia westwards, unwilling to accept the Feathered Horse Queen and female horse power. Any idea what happened to them, or whether they encountered the female-led Galanini clans of south-eastern Ralios?
  10. Sandy Petersen has a Youtube channel where he discusses scenario design, how to create horror in games and stories, and what is behind the creepiness of Lovecraft's stories: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVDIvzRZD39Rv9uR8mqfOBg The view numbers are astonishingly low... which I take it to mean that nobody around here has noticed the channel so far.
  11. Let's just say that a dentist's idea of preparing the fixtures for a bridge is a case of vivisculpture, and that anaesthetics in the submandibular glands aren't that lucky as shots go. They (and as a consequence I) remain highly irritated. With Snodal, right? That makes the Fronelan discovery journey backwards in time. A foreshadowing of the "horses are no creatures of the Earth" theme that reigns in Prax? Yet we have his birth place in Galin. But hey, deities get born as their own children or grandchildren all the time. Ok, that process of domestication was what my hypothesis is built on. The Enerali are the only ones who bear the stem of the name of Ralios in their ancestry. Coincidence? That's at a time when four of the five Pendali kingdoms that had distributed old Seshneg between them still were independent of Froalar's heirs. Intriguingly, the dead deity the Pendali have to make without isn't their lion ancestor but their land ancestress - quite the difference to their easternmost brethren. The Enerali became the folk of Hrelar Amali, the place with temples to all the gods. No mention of King Dan as Dari's predecessor? Or are "Dan" and "Dari" only different ways to read the quite ligated type? I know that OCRing some of Greg's typewritten material from A&E had me on permanent duty to decide between "n" and "ri" with some early Atari ST based OCR software. With the narrow spacing of the type-writer or in hand writing, the distinction may be lost to a human reader, too. There are strong parallels between the "sons of the founders divide the inherited land into kingdoms bearing their names" theme, though. Eneral son of Galanin has four sons who become the ancestors of the four great tribes of Safelster, possibly remaining silent about a sister. Pendal has five sons with Ifttala, dividing up the Seshneg peninsula and continental root between them. Only the two easternmost kingdoms overlap somewhat with the westernmost provinces of the Rokari kingdom of Seshnela. That rhymes with the OOO's Fleet of Black Galleys active in 1250, in time for the Slontos sea battles. I wonder whether the Hykim ancestry is the only way to be counted as a beast person. Does it include any burtae of Mikyh, too? Thinking of Storm Bull here, or the various pastoralist groups that later were Theyalanized and now have always been Orlanthi. By the time of Halwal and Yomili, the subjugated Pendali (subjects?) had long become absorbed into the Seshnegi population (and likewise the Enjoreli bull folk into the Akemite populaiton). All of the Pendali cities that were present at the Dawn were continued as Seshnegi cities, suggesting that the Pendali or at least their (Likiti? Likiti-descended?) subjects practiced some form of horticulture, agriculture and/or pastoralism that was compatible with the Malkioni methods. Promalte appears to be a heavily conjugated form of Primolt. Grandfather Sky. The gospels are mentioned on p.18 of Revealed Mythologies, listing the six strongholds (with IMO one error: Noloswal should read Neleoswal, and one unnamed other major stronghold - possibly Isefwal or Nenanduft in coastal Loskalm rather than riverine Akem, if we follow that south to north trend). The beast interactions are fairly numerous, only topped by his interactions with people: (All taken from RM p.19) That has to be an A-type rumor.
  12. Pelanda at least was completely within the range of the riverine Waertagi.
  13. Joerg

    Gunda the Guilty

    I wonder why they would bother with the biological process at all when e.g. the Pinocchio method (Durev) yields perfectly human/divine individuals. Or a Pygmalion method. The conception and birth of Llew Llaw Gyffes did have a sexual act (it wouldn't be a Celtic story without it, would it?) but has otherwise all the trappings of sorcerous reproduction. Maybe Gunda resulted from a similar approach?
  14. Joerg

    Gunda the Guilty

    Nope. I have wondered about the genealogy which has both Holar and Horal on the same level, though. The same source that gives us Kaldes (Hrestol's Saga) also has Froalar's sorcerer naming his son-in-law as his prospective successor. Malkioni history starts swarming with monks in the Jrusteli period, possibly earlier with those Damolsten guys (who may have been something like a sacred band or the Jomsvikings). Judging from Meriatan's description in the Guide, such sacred bands appear to be a Malkioni thing.
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