Jon Hunter

OK because i am a sado and have nothing better to do on a Friday night .

I've made some changes to the blog.

• The first is i've started to list synopsis of the posts rather than the full posts on the main page and categories.
• The second is that when they area  series of posts i've order them in the order they  should be read in not the reverse order of how they were written.

The aim of both is to ease reading and browsing.

The question is before i go do all 100 posts, does it work and does it make things easier ? 

HI All,

I was just wondering if anyone aware of gloranthan colloquialisms, either published or stuffs that has dropped into you games over time?

I just wrote that Balazaring citadel guard was 'as happy as pig in muck' and it kinda worked, but its a northern english phrase which especially works in the context of Balazaring citadels.

Anyone got anything 100% Gloranthan?

Was he a chef caught in the preparation of orange sauce :)?

Hi all,

Sorry about the separate post for this, but just put together an article on writing NPC's for Glorantha and differs from the usual stuff.

http://www.backtobalazar.com/creating-interesting-believable-npcs-glorantha/

Enjoy
 

Jon

Just now, David Scott said:

I tried to find the definition of passion spirits in RQ and couldn't - I found there stats etc though. Anaxial's Roster says:

From this I would say that they can splinter / making more but less powerful versions of themselves. This would be a mechanism for them dissipating.

cheers Dave plenty enough to suggest i havent deviated far from the norm.

OK finished up Cyriel section with two new posts,

• http://www.backtobalazar.com/cyriels-prostitutes/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/plot-hooks-cyriels-operation/

This stuff is a little grim, but plots can sometimes go that way.  Inspiration came from the film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whistleblower, and that's the mood i'm aiming at. If this stuff wont make your players angry don't use it.

The whole Cyriel Section now fits together like this

• http://www.backtobalazar.com/cyriel-summary/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/cyriel-endelkar/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/cyriels-traders-character-write-ups/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/cyriels-guards-mercenaries-character-details/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/cyriels-prostitutes/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/cyriels-endelkars-business-interests/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/plot-hooks-cyriels-operation/

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

I don't see why not. 

Disease Spirits certainly spawn other disease spirits when they kill their host.

If a Passion (Greed) Spirit possesses someone then leaves, the Greed Spirit could well leave a Greed Spirit behind.

 

Thats what i was after ... its going  to be a bit ick, but its a plot.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Not really, Humakt and Babeester Gor are no more magical than Ernalda.

In fact, a cult such as Humkt almost has the "1 in 100" built in, with a Century of worshippers having a Centurion, or the equivalent, as a Rune Level. Acolytes might be a halfway house for NCOs who support the Centurion.

The point I think me Joerg agreed on was not that the cults were more magical but the commitment of its members to the cult will probably higher. 

If you chose obscure and difficult religions you religious enthusiasm is probably higher. For the more sociably normal, vanilla and acceptable religions that's where you are likely to get ratio's closer to 1 in 100.

I never encountered a Humakti century stated up or encountered. I see them as a cult or warriors as proposed to soldiers. With a large warband being 30.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I don't really agree.

Martial cults don't really have more intense worship. I can see worshippers of Uleria or Minlister having far more intense worship than martial cults. Farming cults worship their hero or the land, that kind of worship is just as intense.

Well we are allowed to differ in opinion without calling each other outside to duel ....

I'd agree about Uleria i could see a better ratio in worshippers there, Minlister id see devoted worshippers as rare and would expect to see him worshipped as a secondary God by most worshippers, in pantheon worship, or in rites associated to other gods. I'd also be very suprised to ever meet a worshipper beyond  probably with the rank pf acolyte/devotee due to the nature of the cult.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

A Witch Cult, such as Subere, is very magical by nature, but its worshiipers are not all at the same level. Many are learning their trade, many take years to get to a certain level of ability, some never do.

Alchemists might seem more magical than other people, bnut they probably aren't. They might have some magic to help them manipulate/improve potions, but is that more magical than blessing a field to grow well, or making oxen plough all day?

No one was saying they all worshippers would be of the same (high) level, just that the 1 to 100 ratio works across the population as a whole, and for vanilla cults, but as cults get more specialised the ratios will change, and lets not get too inflexible with it.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Members of cults can get some magic for free and some cheaper than normal. Prior experience can teahc magic as part of life experience. People can be taught magic as a reward for performing tasks or for long service.

Not everyone who has spells has paid for them with hard cash.

Of course they haven't, but when the costs of there earned/free magic is 500 years earning somethings not right.  Even if they haven't paid cash it still has a value.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, cultists of Ernalda/Orlanth, Ernadla/Yelmalio, Dendara/Yelm and so on have 1 rune level for every 20 or 30 people, is that 1 for every married couple?

ha ha bloody ha .... 

OK spirits and possession ....

a few questions 

are spirits ever able to possesses more than one individual at a time?

Can passion spirits birth other passion spirits?

14 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Not much physics, actually, mostly logic and mathematics.  How do you explain properties at the event horizon?

So, in other words, nothing is impossible and there's no need for explanation.  It's all 'just magic.'  Very convenient, but not satisfying in the slightest.

I'm not a great quoter of Jeff so what i'm saying is no way canonical  but ........

You are looking for answers in a scientific manner incompatible with the world.

To the players the mundane Gloranthan world functions in reasonably similar ways to ours, time passes, things fall down, blood pumps, forces are opposed, liquids displaced etc

However those events are as much driven by magical forces as biological, physical and chemical Also there isn't a comprehensive scientific framework to understand and explain this, and the detailed questions that RW science has raised in the last 300 years haven't been asked by anyone in Glorantha ever. 

For example; Whether runes work in a similar way as elements in the RW as particles making up all kinds of matter is irrelevant , because no one in Glorantha would be aware that matter is made up of smaller particles.

43 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Just because those laws may not be exactly the same (gravitation being one particularly glaring one) doesn't mean that there isn't a natural logic to it...and I mean something other than Runes as elements, a theory which I've made clear before I consider ludicrous.  (What are the physical properties of a Death Rune?  What is its charge?  Mass?)  Nor does it preclude some of those laws from being exactly the same.  Conservation of energy/momentum, for example.

Its quite clear that most of the world off Glorantha functions with cause and effect in a way similar to ours when nothing different is noted, for ease of game play if not anything else.

What I think is consensus is that the reasons for the functionality are different. 

Questions about the charge mass of Glorantha atoms are redundant because Glorantha does not have the concept of sub atomic particles and forces. Concern about those question is outside the scope of the Gloranthan Universe.   

If runes are the driving force that defines the Gloranthan universe ( and I believe they are), to try and substitute them into a modern chemical or physical methodology is wrong not because it is unscientific, but because it is too scientific. Within Glorantha I would not even consider the framework of atomic particles(modern or rune based) as relevant. 

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

Looking at the way the cult runs, I disagree. There’s a BG shrine at the Paps, as part of the Earth Temple. Under RQG shrines give access to one cult rune spell and are run by a godtalker. They can regain their rune points there. It’s a tiny cult protecting a tiny population of earth priestesses. The cult has no rune priests, Just runelords that fight. The cult only exists as the ancient shrine is there and few have a calling to that particular role in the Wastes.

All of which is completely believable, but so is a minor temple with one priest, a devotee or two and 10 - 20 initiates in the local area. Either would work for a game, and what id use to determine which  is the MGF rule.  If i had a player who was BG initiate id probably play it that way, because its believable, it makes sense and its ads to player fun.  

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

Think of them a bit like the Swiss guard at the Vatican. There are about 16 Ernalda  priestesses amongst the nomads (Pavis & Pavis county orlanthi) and they are mostly Pol-Joni and Agimori. To become powerful in this cult is hard, most will do a pilgrimage to other temples to learn more magic.

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

Because the Mostali don't regularly commit feats of engineering.  It's odd to me how people espouse this, then turn around and try to use logic to explain their theories of, for instance, why the sea is salt.  It's also funny how there's a 'correct' way of viewing something in a YGMV universe.

I think we were both stating an opinions, but are trying to dig a little into the nature of Glorantha, and how it differs from our world.

YGMV means feel free to deviate but there will be standard approaches and opinions to the way Glorantha works. In my games ducks never seem to get a mention (i've not uninvented them, they just get swept under the carpet) but i'm very happy to admit my games vary from the standard Glorantha approach in the way.

Quote

Btw, those Bronze Age civilizations that Gloranthans are supposed to most resemble had science as well, because there were people who didn't buy into the idea that everything in life was the result of some godlet waking up with a hangover.

Yes they did, but even the more scientific ones believe some odd stuff.

To quote Hippocrates "A physician without a knowledge of Astrology has no right to call himself a physician."

The scientific worldview and paradigm we have today is about 300 years old and often misapplied to historical settings, let alone mythical ones.

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As I said it’s a guideline that we use and you may want to increase some of the number. if you want to produce actual numbers go ahead, although I’m not sure it’s a useful exercise. When looking at a general overview 1 in 100 works well in practice. The numbers work very well with Babeester Gor, only large Earth temples will have rune levels or devotees and they are likely to be mobile. I suspect the main centre for the cult is in Esrolia. In the Wastelands, there are only 55 initiates. Please also note that these numbers never include PCs, so at some point there will be a devotee of Babeester Gor in the Wastes. 

I'm prone to agree with Joerg here, the 1 to 100 numbers is very good as regards general population and for large and popular cults, but as cults get smaller and have higher intensity of worship that ratio may change significantly,  1 to  20 or 30 for marital groups, 1 to 10 for specialist cults ( includes Lhankor Myh, Chalana Arroy) and even up to 1 to 3 or 5 for extreme cults such as Vivamort.

The reason for this is that the ratio is mainly determined by how many people have the desire to attain the status who realistically have the ability and drive to do so.

The strict global 1 in 100 i believed is is modeled from the real world, where to be frank the real tangible benefit of magic and divine providence is at best hard to quantify, and worst none existent. In Glorantha the tangible effects of magic means that magic people not only  generate enough extra value to contribute significantly to society themselves, but will increase the overall contribution of other people in the community.   Also most can and will sustain themselves, as priests of obscure cults also fulfill roles as healers, traders, craftsmen and sages.

The limit is not ability for the society to support magic people, but is the number of individuals with the desire and capability to make the Gods that large a part of there life.  When people choose obscure and offbeat Gods we will find a group  of people that have self selected to be more prone to desire & attain spiritually. 

So for your 55  Babestor Gor cultists in the wastes it would be very likely to see at least one priest or lord and a couple of devotees, in fact it be very hard for the 55 initiates to  function without them.

1 hour ago, boztakang said:

On a macro level, I tend to believe that Magic is a wash. For every Repair spell there is a renegade Gremlin running around breaking things. For every Plowsharp, there is a stubborn Stone Spirit refusing to be budged. . 

A those extra obstacles and problems or just different explanations to events that we would explain by science.

I'd thought about disease as initially thought about all of the disease spirits as well as natural disease, but then rethought, disease spirits is the main way disease operates in Glorantha, illness spread by micro bacteria and viruses just doesn't exist in Glorantha. Magical problems are not always on top off mundane or scientific problems, often they are alternatives to them.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Everything is magical but not everyone has magic spells.

Please show me a good range of publish stats for human characters with no spells ?

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

You are welcome to your perception.

I am

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Try RQ2 Previous Experience, or the RQ2 Monsters chapter - many intelligent 'monsters' with no magic. Bearwalkers, Broo, Ducks, most Gargoyles, Giants, Manticores, Newtlings, Runners, Tigersons, Cave Trolls, Tusk Brothers, Unicorns, Wolf Brothers, Wyrms, Wyverns.

Try looking through actual characters and encounters that were published  in supplements with no spells.  the picking there are very very thin and its not the norm.

The norm is; 

• Very weak  and poor characters will have 1-5 points of battle magic
• Mid level encounters will have 5 to 8 points of battle magic
• Warriors and trained soldiers will have 9 -12 points
• Magically Experienced Characters will have very many.

I'm not sure why you are arguing that magic and spells is not pervasive in Glorantha, its one of things things that defined Glorantha and Runequest and differentiated it from other systems.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

And indeed they are. For the Lunar army you have the annual pay, and for Pavis you have the prices in a gold-rush town.

I'm not sure where you got Pavis from i was working off the RQ2 rulebook, which was as vanilla as RQ2 got.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Peasants don't wander around with masses of battle magic.

See the Previous Experience in RQ2. Peasants are poor.

Adventurers are atypical. 

See example stats across a wide range of everyday folk stated for RQ2 - Griffin Mounatin, Pavis, Bordleands and Sun country as sources.

• Average balazaring hunter: Circa 7 pts of battle magic - circa 6,000 Lunars worth of spells
• Balazaring Citadel warrior: 8pts battle magic - circa 7,000 Lunars worth of spells
• Lunar Peltast (Griffin Mountain) : 13 pts battle magic   - circa 10,000 Lunars worth of spells
• Newtling - 11pts battle magic  -circa 9000L of spells
• Sun Dome Templar - 12pts of battle magic, circa 10,000 lunars worth of spells
• Sun Dome Militia - 2pts of battle magic - 1500 - 2000 L of spells
• Trollkin 1- 5pts of battle magic - circa 1800 L of spells
• Standard Praxian Nomads - 4 -6 pts of battle magic, 2000 - 4000L worth of spells
• Balazaring Baboons - 8 -12pts of battle magic, 6000 - 10,000 L worth of spells
• Pavis Street Gang - 4 - 11 pts of battle magic, 7000+ L worth of spells
• Trollkin watch in Pavis - 7pts of battle magic 5000+ L worth of spells

Sundome militia will be closest to what you means as a peasant. But when worker trollkin are wandering round with with 500L of magic, its suggest the two economic systems aren't joined up.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It may be worth noting that in my original pay tables, salaries were at least ten times higher, but I was told to reduce them. Working through the annual earnings of thanes and housecarls, based on the hides of land allocated to them, gives very similar values to officer/NCO salaries.  

My gut feel is that you were probably closer to right first time. If we are tying stuff into older price lists and approaches 

But when the RQG comes out we may see a complete reworking of training and spell costs, and the new figures would make much more sense.

I don't like the old RQ2 stuff and think its grossly out of date in terms of costs for spells and training. It belongs to roleplaying in the 70's and early 80's, But until we have something different we need to try to make things work with it.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There will be many different economic scales throughout Glorantha: prices are affected by supply and demand, the cost of transport, and the price the buyers are willing to pay. Pavis is a bit like a gold-rush town in that regard: away from the usual trade routes (in fact, generating a specialized one of its own), in fairly hostile territory in all meanings, and with an inflated local economy.

For example, there's been a thread about the price of iron. Do you believe there's one set price for the iron that comes out of the Iron Mountains? There's one price for the initial dealers, and the further away you get, the price increases, modified by local events such as wars, and demand.

There will be many economic scales but they will sensible, related and rational.

What i think we have here is the desire to reflect real bronze age economics with your good self and the old RQ2 economic system, which was designed to give adventures something to spend there money on after bringing ridiculous amounts of gold out of the ground after doing a dungeon bash.

I don't think either are right for Glorantha with hows its matured and grown over the years, but i'm very clear that the two scales cannot sensibly coexist within the same game world.

Trying to reconcile the two at the moment we would see peasants generating 10 silvers a year of worth, but wandering round with 1000 lunars plus of battle magic, just not feasible. Maybe the new runequest will reset the system a little.
 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

It would, if everyone had access to it. The issue is: how many people have healing magic other than specialists, and, of course, player characters. Personally, I don't take player character adventurers as representative of the entire population....

At that point i think you out of the step with one of the main themes of Glorantha which is the common availability of magic, and its ubiquitous nature.

I've also never seen Glorantha as place where the players are a class of adventures separate and distinct from the general population. they are a subset of that population and they may have the edge, but the cultural tie in is part of the game world. 

Also I cant find any published examples of stats for sentient creatures in Glorantha that don't have access to magic.

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I agree, but remember how expensive these spells are. If we look at the RQ spell list most spells average around 1000-1500 Lunars to learn even at a basic level. Considering how much money the average peasant makes, it's unlikely they'll be running around with access to more than the most minor of spells, and certainly not anything close to our average adventurer's arsenal.

On of the reasons im suggesting adding real world bronze age economics on top of Glorantha is that it doesn't work.

Every human NPC i have seen stated for Glorantha has access to magic, here area  few example of stats pulled from supplements of RQ2 and RQ3;

• Average balazaring hunter: Circa 7 pts of battle magic - circa 6,000 Lunars worth of spells
• Balazaring Citadel warrior: 8pts battle magic - circa 7,000 Lunars worth of spells
• Lunar Peltast (Griffin Mountain) : 13 pts battle magic   - circa 10,000 Lunars worth of spells
• Newtling - 11pts battle magic  -circa 9000L of spells
• Sun Dome Templar - 12pts of battle magic, circa 10,000 lunars worth of spells
• Sun Dome Militia - 2pts of battle magic - 2000 L of spells
• Trollkin 1- 5pts of battle magic - circa 1800 L of spells
• Standard Praxian Nomads - 4 -6 pts of battle magic, 2000 - 4000L worth of spells
• Balazaring Baboons - 8 -12pts of battle magic, 6000 - 10,000 L worth of spells
• Pavis Street Gang - 4 - 11 pts of battle magic, 7000+ L worth of spells
• Trollkin watch in Pavis - 7pts of battle magic 5000+ L worth of spells

from these published examples I think its safe to say in Glorantha almost everyone has access to magic

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Common and rune (to use your definitions) would only confer a slight advantage over Earth mainly due to the time the effect works. This slight advantage is still an advantage, however. Using the basis we use for "magic" people - 1 in 100. Given a population of 100 initiates is one healer's magic enough to avoid illness and death in glorantha considering their rarity. We actually have percentages for Sartar for cults in to look at numbers.

I think its the common place healers in Glorantha that make the difference, the buff spells for everyday items such as plowsharp, craft item, etc, will give limited but not insignificant effects. 

Not game changing but an extra 10 -15% of skills roles 3 or more times a day can affect a persons productivity.

However instant spells such as heal 2, repair and ignite go along way to making life so much easier, and do not require an initiate of required cult.

Heal 2 not only stops blood loss, but also would stop infection, resets minor breaks and massively shortens healing times, i think this one spell alone changes the nature of the world.

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A bow fitted to your requiremenst will cost you as much, looking at the man-hours that have to be put in the construction and preparation of the materials. (Even if much of it is providing a suitable stick of yew or flawless pieces of horn.)

Not when the worth of years labour is 20 silvers... 

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Quote

Compare those prices to medical services.

Sill doesn't add up, the worth of commander yearly, salary is not half a week of a trainers time.  A legion commander should not be expected to pay 7 1/2 years salary to learn a battle magic spell.  I get the logic but the scales wrong.

It would lead to trainers and instructors being paid 40 times what a imperial commanders is. A spell trainers are heading to 300 times the net worth.

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Quote

Not so in Glorantha, of course - coinage may have been as old as alloys, when you think of the Clack or the Wheel. The Clack might have started as a weight rather than a means of exchange, possibly when preparing alloys.

City life for known citizens will be similar. Only transients and known good-for-nothings (soldiers, mercenaries, adventurers) need to pay cash.

 

First coins are and have been part of Glorantha from the start, its one of reasons i don't think its a Bronze Age world in the strict sense of the term.

The second here is we are looking at worth given, not the coins which are used for doing it. 

A provincial soldiers pay would be 3 clacks a week, what is that in terms of beers ???? 

This isnt 'meant to say Martin has this wrong , just that within Glorantha there a current two distinct economic scales and I don't think they have been reconciled yet. 

Something i have not read before here is a real deep dig into how a world as magical as Glorantha would effect an economic and social model.

So  to start a discussion on it. 

There are three types of magic we should think about;

• Common - Battle magic as described in the rules and what I assume to be non adventurous equivalents (i've always assumed they exist just aren't relevant to game play ) which will is used by all, quick to replenish and will have a significant boosts on day to day craftsmen productivity, farming yields, livestock health. 
• Rune - Rune magic, rare powerful magic possessed in some aspect by many but difficult to replenish and reserved for special or serious occasions by most. Used carelessly by only the rich or powerful.
• Ritual - Community Rituals that both make the world work, but also protect,  and positively boost the fertility, longevity and productivity of a people group. Performed in yearly cycles or in extreme times of need.

These should have the following effects;

• Increase productivity - Meaning the following things are possible - goods would be relatively cheap, more free time for individuals, abundance of food, better education for most, more inventive and creative societies 
• Decrease in child mortality - the following are possible - massive population booms, smaller family sizes
• Increased life expectancy - increased knowledge and wisdom within communities, greater generational conflict, 
• Increased capabilities - Ability to achieve things that only much later societies would have developed on earth

Also there is the counterpoints that;

• Magic makes the threats of the world Greater
• Opponents and foes usually have the same magical abilities
• Increased growth rates mean societies acquire critical masses where they implode, have a revolution, split, schism, or in other ways self immolate much quicker.

This could manifest itself in these areas;

• societies will be bigger and support a greater population at a similar time in earths history
• Building crafts and magical technologies will surpass earths abilities in similar timescales
• societies will have the ability to be more structured and control orientated
• rate of growth will be faster
• rate of decline will be faster
• chance of cataclysmic event are higher
• ability recover is greater
• Goods are cheaper than relative to earth

Nowhere near a finished article but enough maybe to start a  discussion. Any other thoughts?