Jon Hunter

13 hours ago, Charles said:

And why shouldn’t a really powerful sorcerer become the equivalent of a demigod? Delecti was pretty advanced in the EWF, so likely achieved draconic illumination. Which would mean that he has at least some access to forms of magic other than sorcery.

It would possibly be a sliding scale ....  ones persons powerful; sorcerer another persons Demi-God.

imho the level of technology for Glorantha depends on what would destroy the suspension of disbelief for your group.

This that tend to do that are

• Modern inventions retrofitted with primitive technologies
• Things that seem inconsistent with our perceptions of the technology level of the Glorantha
• Things that have obviously been changed just cause we can - id consider joerg's beetleskin hull's in that
• Things that  just seem out of place

Lots of those things are very personal to refs, players and groups due to taste, level of knowledge, preconceptions and previous gaming experience.  So I really to think this is an area where "your glorantha may vary" is very well applied.   

What cannon should be probably is to take the the path of least offence and to be most  vanilla, as not to force on to people gaming tables ideas which will jar.   So if you want a flame thrower  made of bellows spewing Greek fire, you may. But don't expect it in an official supplement any time soon.

Seriously I think worry about lots of details put players don't give a hoot about. If Harrek turns up in longboat, triremes, or a galley. most of out players wouldn't care.  Just as long as he doesn't role up in a Medi evil Caravel or steam powered iron clad.

On 3/27/2018 at 6:53 AM, Evilroddy said:

Jon:

These are the Wargames Foundry 28mm figures I use for Sartarians.

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/european-bronze-age-scandanavia-north-west-europe-1600-bc

They're metal and they're a wee bit more expensive but they paint up well and look very good on the skirmish table.

For Lunars I use Crocodile Games Miniatures.

https://www.crocodilegames.com/store/itemDetail.cfm?prodID=455&catID=40

Cheers.

Evilroddy.

Nice choices but significant price differentials on both, i'm currently going to be using Victix Carthaginians for my luanrs. 60 Hoplites, peltasts and med infantry all in one box. 

On 3/24/2018 at 2:53 PM, M Helsdon said:

Crunch' should reflect 'fluff', not the other way around. If the world is changed to fit in with the foibles of a game system, then there's something severely wrong with the creative process.

Id take issue with this, Glorantha exists as game world. If the world definition damages the gaming experience it probably needs redesigning. Believability and suspension of disbelief are factors but only is a s much as how they effect the game.  MGF( Maxiumum Game Fun) is the order of the day.

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It's why AD&D is so unsatisfying (for me). The combat system is odd, and the treatment of cultures and religions to fit in with the abstract alignment system just doesn't work, for me.

There is also a balance to these things, and AD&D has always had issues around the depth of its game worlds, wide and large but lacking in depth and substance is my general opinion. Its often too abstract to be believable.

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Perhaps, but there have been plenty of historical skirmish games which don't attempt to rewrite history to make skirmishing the only historical method of warfare.

Not the only method of warefare, but its the type of warfare which makes much more sense within a RPG  environment.

In an RPG you want a small defined combat where the players can be the main movers and shakers on there side of the conflict. 

Any world definition that makes the players bit characters in combats and conflict, for the sake of historical accuracy  is to my mind  fundamentally broken and not fit for purpose.

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Just not realistic, if you are attempting to emulate a battle. There are ways of doing it; demeaning the setting isn't the way to go.

There has to be flex in the setting to allow games to flourish. Glorantha is not  historical phd project fro a few history buffs, its an active vibrant living game world.

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It depends upon your personal credulity filter. In fantasy games, literature and films, the audience is expected to adjust their expectations of what is and is not real.

So, it depends upon what you aspire to emulate. In fantasy games there's inevitably fantasy, but if it doesn't work then the whole thing collapses.

Its ability to suspend disbelief comes down to levels of expectation, which is based on the knowledge level of the audience, and  also the expectation/intent of the audience.

I still get annoyed by helms deep cavalry, I didn't feel robbed or notice gladiators inaccuracies, 

With all due respect I think you are different than the intended Glorantha target market on both counts, as you are much more highly informed in this area than most individuals (even gamers.)  and also as you don't actively game your not as prone to see the need of occasional fudges to keep the game moving.

Both make you more probe to see deviations between Glorantha and historical settings as more significant than others. Please don't think It means i think your positions and opinion invalid because of this, i just see that they come through a particular filter.

To conclude my game needs Lunar military in sizes that PCs can interact with , fight, threaten, rescue. I don't care what or when these appeared in real world military history, my game needs them thus they exists within the game world. We have a world in which dinosaurs and humans co-exixts, Gods are real, there are talking animals, ducks that smoke cigars. We can cope with military units of a size and style which suits the game.

A few posts have gone live recently

• http://www.backtobalazar.com/using-ancient-miniatures-glorantha-review-gbp-dark-age-warriors/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/gloranthan-miniatures/
• http://www.backtobalazar.com/tulina-pavis-npc/

On 3/17/2018 at 10:47 AM, Sayerson said:

Strangers in Prax as well.

 

My fav renaissance  supplement. Never played or reffed, but just for inspiration and background.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

But boy are we straying in our efforts to be more right(eous) than the other.

I was wondering if it was working for you guys ?

As promised ...

http://www.backtobalazar.com/using-ancient-miniatures-glorantha-review-gbp-dark-age-warriors/

Can you even say are we looking at less than 3 months, 3 -6 months, 6 months + ?
 

I'm having with some fun with historical miniatures  for gloranthaat the moment, will be sticking a review of some up soon on www.backtobalazar.com.  This thread has inspired.

As a note from the limited research i've done its considered that Alexander was way ahead of his time, and is the exception that period and not the rule.

Though it seems the Assyrians, Persians and Egyptians also had some grasp of military logistics.

It would seem if intended or not the different logistical strengths have had a significant effect on the military history of the different cultures, organised empires have had the ability launch large scale wars of invasion,  tribal cultures are morel limited to raids, defensive wars and border skirmishes because they don't have the ability to keep large scale forces in the field for protracted periods.

This definitley pans out when looking at the Lunars and Orlanthi in the third age, is this consistent across the rest of Glorantha?

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Rather than admiring the Romans, I think we should look at Alexander the Great or Hannibal's achievements (and failures). I don't really see the Gloranthan armies as following the Marian reforms to the military, but closer to the older form of hoplites being accompanied by servants or slaves, doubling the head-count of such a unit with non- or semi-combatants (those servants often doubled as skirmishers in the early phases of a battle if free men).

Alexander was the earlier commander who was the exception i meant and is a good early example of logistics.

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The existence of Angus Farquilis as Master of Wagons indicates that the Lunars do indeed recognize logistics as a key to operating in a country without leaving it devastated (as most of my barbarian examples apparently did, and as did military forces as late as the 30 years war armies).

Ok here you encounter my  working definition of logistics, leaving off the land and leaving devastation isn't using effective logistics. Logistics as i'm referring to it separate logistic structures, and the existence of planned supply lines that enable army's to move fast and not devastate the surrounding population.

The existence of Angus Farquilis answers my core question its a detail id either overlooked or more likely forgot. I'd just defined some lunar logistics stuff in Filicher for my games was just checking it fitted the setting in a moment of self doubt .

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

15 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I have a great deal on logistics, ranging from what an infantryman requires, to speculations upon high level Lunar logistics. I'm not certain if I am at liberty to share the material...

Broadly speaking it sounds like the Lunars have complex logistics structures more similar to the Romans than the usual earth bronze age arrangements ( with the odd exception.)

That's how I read Griffin Mountain and how I have interpreted you answer, would you concur?
 

On 3/2/2018 at 10:07 PM, M Helsdon said:

Hi Jeff,

Have made a few changes to the 'booklet' and have a few more planned. I have also received a few requests for access (possibly because of this post, which I've only just noticed), but have directed them to you, as it infringes your copyright material. There's now a shorter 94 page draft in DropBox, in addition to the 300 page version (which is about to grow...)

New material will relate to shields (having read a few more books on the 'archaic' period of Greek warfare, there are a number of new shield types to add) and there's a significant factor relating to the comparison of shield-wall versus phalanx, amongst other things. Most of the new things about chariots have already been included (but possibly not in the version you have).

Hi,

Have you got aNy stuff on logistics especially in terms of the lunar administration. 

Griffin mountain suggests lunar logistic capacity is significant. Does this bear out in a wider context?

Jon

Another post, just some background I put together for my game. I built up a list of company sized mercenary units working through Holay.

http://www.backtobalazar.com/mercenary-companies-holay/

8 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Obviously the spell has a beneficial effect, otherwise who would bother to cast it?  The point I was making is based on how agronomy affected economic history.  IRL technical development hinged on the production of a food surplus that allowed urban environments to flourish.  IRL if you want to plant more crops, you need more people and to clear more land, which is a problem because each person requires an acre of land to produce a bushel (1 years food), and clearing land was time-consuming, difficult work.  More fertile land was desperately important.  Much hinged on soil fertility, as potentially if 1 acre could produce more than 1 bushel you were ahead.  Thus if you could get even a 1% increase in productivity by rotating your fields or using a new fertilizer it was worth it.  Hârnmaster is the best game system for this btw, they literally have each region's soil fertility listed.  My point was that Bless Crops doesn't get you ahead, it mitigates total failure, which means that as with the rest of the point about Glorantha being homeostatic, Bless Crops doesn't add anything, it maintains homeostasis.

No surprise you didn't actually agree  .

My counter point is than in RL economics you never budget for close to 100 efficiency, because it never happens.  You budget for average efficiency, including the potential of catastrophic failure. (if you budget for it over a period you should have good chance to generate a surplus to survive it ).

Therefore if you do anything to significantly mitigate catastrophic risk you significantly increase actual average productivity over a period.

I do agree with Jeff  that actually trying to work our how magic  effects Gloratha by extrapolating effects of particular rune spells and battle magic spells is not a fruitful way of approaching the question, it has however been fun :).

2 hours ago, Aprewett said:

Sort of related, I remember reading that MAR Barker had different versions of Tekumel, the game, the books and pure. Each supported that setting version, if that makes sense 

Well Glorantha has 3 official RPG systems HQ, 13th  Age and RQ. It also has various homebrews, mash ups and misappropriations of which i'm responsible for one.

It also has various computer games and board games, and fantasy literature which all plug into the world.

I would argue that non of these define Glorantha, ( not even 2nd edition RQ), what the different rules systems and platforms give us are ways of interacting with Glorantha to give us the gaming experience we prefer.

I think there is a belief amongst some that RQ2 defines Glorantha, and they will attempt to create a hard definition of the game world by using those mechanics.  I would agree with Jeff that its probably unwise to do this and creates constraints upon Glorantha that the rules set was never designed to do. ( I hope i didn't put words into Jeffs mouth here )

On 2/11/2018 at 5:31 PM, jajagappa said:

For the Lodrili, yes.  For men, I think start with the Overseer and the 10 Workers from the Gods Wall with their roles, tools and trades.  And then common nicknames about physical features, Fire, and Earth/Mud.  But never a nickname with the terms "Gold", "Sky", "celestial", or anything else affiliated with Yelm or the Sky World!  That would be considered not only offensive to the DH overlords, but likely rebellious.

6. Mohenjar
God of Overseers. Mohenjar carries a ceremonial mattock and a small legged bucket. He knows how, and is not afraid to dirty himself.
7. Morkartos
The Foreman. He carries a long crossed staff, or “chief foreman’s” staff.
8. Perandos
The Digger (with Mattock.) He carries a mattock and brick.
9. Pererlotil
The Digger (with shovel.) He carries a shovel and bucket, and brick mold.
10. Navestos
The Harvester. He carries a sickle and basket.
11. Urder
The Worker. He carries a thresher (whip) and basket.
12. Morurder
The Boss. He carries a small baton of authority.
13. Alfostios
The Cooper. He carries a saw, with a barrel beside him.
14. Ostevius.
The Carpenter. He carries a hammer, with a box beside him.
15. Venurtera
The Potter. She carries a wheel, with a pot beside her.
16. Urdera
The Carrier. She carries two baskets.

Most of that works been done

• http://www.backtobalazar.com/lunar-names-part-1/

On 2/11/2018 at 5:31 PM, jajagappa said:

I'm sure these prefixes are equally applied to imperial names, cities, houses, etc.  And I wouldn't worry about ILH2 presentation since it's non-canonical.

If we do that, we loose a sense of distinction between the different Lunar naming conventions, it would be nice to have Pelorian, Dara Happen and Lodrilli working in subtley different ways.

45 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I'd be very reluctant to extrapolate mass society effects from the description of a Rune spell. These descriptions are intended to given a game effect for player characters. The existence of the Bless Crops spell allows player characters and their communities to survive things like the Great Winter, wars, magical phenomena, angry spirits, ill combinations of planets and stars, etc.  When I've run community games with harvest rolls, everyone runs to the Earth priestesses to hedge their bets. With Bless Crops you've got a chance. Without it, you tend to be screwed.

Hi Jeff,

I think you hit on an interesting point here which is the mechanics which different people use to define Glorantha.

For some people Glorantha is defined by specific game mechanics, rules table or a piece of background which they latch onto, whether that be  certain RB & WH rules, specific spell descriptions and formulations, or a cult percentage table from the back of cults of prax almost 40 (OMG!!) years ago.

Its just the way some peoples minds work and they are detail thinkers.

I prefer an approach that sees Glorantha as an entity that exists outside specific rules , and rules are systems and approximations that give us working models that allow us a consistent defined approach in how to work with Glorantha, but they do not and should not define it.

However when you talking with someone with a differeng mindset, there is no harm in jumping inside their idiom for a while  

cheers

Jon

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Not really.  If a 1 acre plot that returns 1 bushels of wheat has bless crops it will only produce its maximum yield.  What bless crops does is ensure that it is likely to make that 100% yield available even when frosts and other trouble occurs that would reduce the harvest.  You probably won't get less than the maximum yield, but you will never get more than the intrinsic fertility of the land can support.  What you get is a reliable harvest.  Does that mean "more" crops?  No, it isn't superphosphate fertilizer, and it won't allow you to produce 1 harvest per season either.  It produces reliability and predictability not surplus.  Frankly, a reliable and predictable harvest is a big deal given that subsistence farming is fraught with the threat of famine IRL.

So you seem to agree that over time  magic will yield a higher average result,  but not a higher theoretical maximum yield.

If we agree on that. we agree that bless crop does have a significant effect upon effectiveness of farming.

I did some digging RQG doesn't have bronze chainmail, or any chain mail for that matter  .

I suppose the background issues here are the dichotomy of "Glorantha is different than the RW" and the push for bronze age realism within the setting.

Ok i.m sure this has been done to death before, but juts coming up to speed with discussions.

Runequest has always had bronze chainmail in its armor lists etc, RW bronze was never made into chainmail and doesn't have the properties for it how is this reconciled?

• Giving Gloranthan bronze different properties than RW bronze?
• Writing chainmail out of your Glorantha?
• A bit of both?
• Making chain-mail an iron only armor type?
• Any of suggestions /accommodations?

Cheers

Jon

On 07/02/2018 at 10:47 PM, jajagappa said:

There's a number of prefixes that can work for nobles of the greater houses (e.g. Ez-zaya works out to "Divine Exalted", "Zayen" to merely "Exalted"; others might include: Agga- (Glory of), Dava- (Victory to), Suren- (Light of), Ven- (Dedicated to)). 

These are currently used in imperial Lunar names, source imperial, lunar handbook vol 2. Though pointed towards lunar Gods, aspects and Heros. I could use them pointed towards cities, houses, families , association and other Dara happen Instituations

On 07/02/2018 at 10:47 PM, jajagappa said:

Those can generally be extrapolated from names/words in GRoY.  For family/house names, I don't think there's any established pattern.  I think a suffix of -a or -en to a house name will give you "of" that family.  You could probably derive a whole array of Lodrili families/clans from their association to a "parent" noble house.  E.g. Assiday-arth might be "overseers [belonging to] the Assiday.  Other Lodrili family names might be derived from names in Entekosiad.  And there are probably various minor Yelmic or Lunar families/houses that could be found (despite the reign of Sheng, it's aftermath, and subsequent Dart Wars).  The Patromas of Pavis note may be one.  The Endelkars might be another.  But some you might just have to create (if you venture into the non-canonical sources you could derive more).

Lodrilli are most prone just to have one name of all the culture i've covered so far. Nicknames would be most common for titled names i think.

On 07/02/2018 at 10:47 PM, jajagappa said:

Whether you can build out a reasonable set of Personal Names and Family Names may be the biggest challenge.

I think i've got a workable set of personal names, just family names and titles that are looking difficult

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As with Ez-zaya Hon-eel Yu-Takenegi or Zayen Tatius Assiday-en. :-)  [Something Jeff and I played around with some time ago when working out the Lunar great houses.]

You think its scaleable?

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

p.314 has a non-eel Pelorian noble with Ochlo-molari. While all the four official examples of the -eel family (Hon, Jar, Sor, Bor) have three letter personal designators, that's evidently not a necessity.

 

I had missed that, but still is very hard to scale up for the following reasons.

• It covers a very small percentage of Lunars in the top houses and clans, I dont think a random name generator can assume NPC's will be from those houses and clans.
• We don't have enough lunar clan/family names to create a list
• We don't have enough data to extrapolate a pattern or style

On the matter of the three letter personal designators I was joking more than anything else but Jareen - eel doesn't quite work the same. Let alone longer names.