EricW

There's an interview with Greg Stafford from 2005 which details under what circumstances a hero can provide rune magic. My reading, Greg seems to be suggesting a hero can only provide rune magic to worshippers when they retire to the other side.

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/heroes-immortals/ 

I think this makes sense, otherwise Glorantha would be awash with demigods powered by worship from their communities - every village would have their living more than human immortal champion.

Treack Markhor, the renegade knowledge priest who founded the cult of Atyar the knowledge devourer 

How about Blood of Orlanth? Brilliant three way struggle between EWF zealots, old ways rebels and God Learners trying to establish a beachhead into dragon myths.

Add Orlanth’s secret vulnerability, a source of unspeakable power which if misused could change the balance of the world.

Suggesting there is only one Earth goddess is like suggesting their is only one air god, that Orlanth, Storm Bull and Humakt are all expressions of Umath. 

Ernalda has daughters who are likely chaotic (Dorasta), even undead (Ernalda's undead grotto). 

Granted there is a close connection, a progression. Perhaps daughter is an anthropomorphism, the different land goddesses could be what Ernalda would have been if she had travelled different paths, now frozen in time. But for whatever reason, there are differences between the Earth goddesses, in some cases as profound as the differences between the air gods.

The God Learner Goddess Swap was attempted because the God Learners thought there was only one Earth Goddess. The Goddess Swap failed because they have were wrong.

My view insanity should if possible be worked into the game narrative, without getting too worried about strict definitions. 

For example if someone starts experiencing paranoia, don't tell them they are paranoid - instead, play the paranoia. All their senses should be warped by their illness. If they roll a spot hidden on one of their fellow party members, they should see some kind of hint that the person is a traitor - a scrap of coloured thread which suggests the other party member has had illicit contact with an adversary. "you suddenly remember that thread looks like the cloth of the jacket wicked henchman was wearing". If they try to denounce the other member, all good - but warn them other members of the party have been behaving strangely lately, perhaps more than one member of the party is under some kind of malign influence. It could be dangerous to speak openly - who to trust?

If they become insanely obsessed with magic, tell them weaving Cthulhu magic doesn't seem to be upsetting them anymore. Tell them they have the impression their last insight somehow armoured them against further san loss. Don't make them roll san checks anymore. Naturally all their sanity is withering away behind the false calm of their obsession, but they don't need to know this.

All sorts of wicked fun to be had.

I think your idea is on solid ground. There is an awesome description of an illuminated Humakti scorpion woman who became a true chaotic abomination in "Lords of Terror - The Cults of Dorastor";

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Rana was born a human of the Bilini tribe, a tomboy in a clan chief's household. When her father refused to allow her to join the Vingans, she severed ties with her family, and joined a Humakti mercenary troop. She eventually became a Sword, and came to lead her own company. She earned a reputation and a good living by escorting merchants through dangerous lands, and her group became much in demand after several successful trips through Dorastor. At some point she became illuminated and embraced the way of Lunar civilisation, though she remained devout to Humakt.

Finally Rana's luck ran out. The caravan she guarded was ambushed by the scorpion men and all were slain, save Rana, who was captured and chosen by the queen, K'Zara, for the Ritual of Rebirth. When K'Rana hatched, she remembered her former life, but illumination shielded her from madness. Concealing her memories from K'Zara and the tribe, she grew to adulthood, and became a favoured bodyguard of the old queen. When K'Rana judged herself ready, she challenged K'Zara, winning easily. She devoured the old Queen and assumed leadership of the tribe. Unfortunately, she also assumed K'Zara's chaotic features. K'Rana mastered the philosophical conflicts of her twin natures (Scorpion Queen and Sword of Humakt), then began to teach her people the ways of Humakt.

Few of her tribe were promising pupils. Most became initiates (and now support a shrine), but K'Rana hoped her children would be smarter. Her first hatchlings were of human intelligence, but her second clutch produced a group of bestial siblings, barely above animals. In dreams she consulted K'Zara's memories, and the curse of the Folk was revealed to her: Bagog is a beast by nature, and has intelligent children only when she devours people. While Scorpion Men can eat each other, this only staves off the loss of intelligence for a few generations. Her first clutch produced superior children because she devoured K'Zara, wisest and strongest of her tribe.

In the three years since she became queen, K'Rana has increased her tribe's status, though it remains one of the smaller tribes in Dorastor. She renewed her ties with the Etyries merchant, trading information and escort through Dorastor for goods difficult for the folk to obtain (e.g. metal armour and weapons).

Personality: K'Rana has stoically accepted her fate, she now works to elevate her tribe from savagery into the fringes of Lunar civilisation. She identifies with her tribe, particularly her own spawn, but she envisions extending the benefits of civilisation to all Scorpion Folk.

...

 

Could have all sorts of fun with a scorpion man character. Is the former character sane(ish), like K'Rana, or are they insane, like the madmen out of Bird Box, utterly determined that the rest of the party should also be transformed? Even if they are sane (sort of), will they try to convince the party to accept them as they now are? Ask for help to heal their unfortunate chaotic transformation? Will PCs volunteer to go on a crazy dangerous heroquest to confront Bagog, and demand their friend back as they were before the rebirth?

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Riddlers have misleadingly been labeled as Tricksters, too. Many mystical practices may appear as nonsensical as the drunk antics of your village drunkard trickster.

My impression is EWF took themselves soooo seriously. Leading people in bizarre quests for fake fragments of draconic trickster wisdom, to fully harness the power of Eurmal in the service of the great dragon, is a game which would never have grown old - at least for the tricksters leading their fellow dragons into utter bewilderment. I can just picture solemn groups of draconic tricksters leading earnest seekers into utter stupidity.

Count the boggles before you sleep, because the boggles ate the sheep. 

From King of Sartar, p92

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From the beginning of time, Orlanthland and the dragons have been enemies. Orlanthland slew Aroka and Sh'hakarzeel, and and many which were lesser. They had, in their turn, ever plotted against Orlanth and humankind, who had robbed them of their ancient world.

One day Eurmal found a new way to betray his master. He found a foolish man, and split his tongue, the way that a bird's tongue can be split to make it talk. And he also split the man's brain, and his heart. That way the man could understand dragon speech.

The man, who is called Rostand the Speaker, enjoyed the effect. The dragonewts, which were always something to fear, spoke to him and he understood. He found his way to a dragon, and rather than being eaten, he learned a song from it!

Rostand thought this was great fun, and he got his friends and family to try it. It was a simple operation; soon they were all doing it to each other.

It was easy to understand the dragon speech, and learn to do new magic from them. Many people wanted to do this, and did.

Orlmandan the Red was the priest who protested this. He was unhappy that everyone was so willing to befriend the enemy of their god. They did not agree, and instead they stopped going to Orlanth's sacrifices. Naturally the spirits of reprisal for their god came to exact vengeance, but the dragon friends used their spells to banish the spirits. 

Orlmandan the Red was unlucky enough to lose his temper, and the ring of Dragons slew him with fire. This caused more violence to break out, but after many fights the loyal Orlanthi were driven out of their homes. 

Obduran the Flyer was the first dragon friend to also be an Orlanthi. He proved that he could do both, and that Orlanthland would not react. This was a marvel to the people of Dragon Pass, and some of them began their sacrifices again, as in the old way, while continuing their sacrifices to the dragons. This custom spread anyplace that the dragon friends went. So many people followed it that Obduran the Flyer sat upon the high council of the EWF. People who had been raised within the draconic belief moved quickly through its ranks, like Ingolf Dragonfriend.

...

I guess its possible Eurmal was too busy laughing at his joke to bother being a presence in the EWF. But Rostand the Speaker may have been a trickster. Or at the very least, the victim of a trickster.

Where is Eurmal? I mean a draconic trickster would be truly strange, but he started the whole mess so he must be involved somewhere.

Is Invisible Orlanth a sorcerous Orlanth cult?

1 hour ago, klecser said:

Eric, you're always quick to jump in with quotes from HPL's writings as if they, in of themselves, should be justifications for a position. I think it's worth noting that not everyone treats his writings as gospel. Nor should we in this case. Remember how HPL was pretty racist himself?  That is kind of the whole point. Authors are writing these scenarios because they want to make it very clear that, while we love HPL's writing and his contributions to literature, we don't support his personal ethics. The "turn the Mythos on its head" movement is deliberate and it has multiple goals. "Abiding by canon" is not one of them. None of us should be looking to HPL for moral codes or primers on engagement on social issues.

Obviously everyone is free to create their own interpretation. Some have suggested August Derleth reinterpreted Cthulhu in terms of Christian dualism, replacing HPL’s amoral horror with .good guys vs bad guys.

OTOH why call it Cthulhu if you want to do something completely different? Why not invent your own pantheon of gods who represent human failings?

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That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom. Meanwhile the cult, by appropriate rites, must keep alive the memory of those ancient ways and shadow forth the prophecy of their return.

http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cc.aspx

I get the impression the Great Old Ones and their acolytes don't care about human racial or social divisions, if anything their goal is to sweep aside divisions and bring humans together in one great holocaust of ecstatic self destruction. It surely simply wouldn't occur to them to leave any group of humans out of their plan because of  something as absurdly insignificant as human skin color.

The Seven Mothers as warped Lightbringers makes a lot of sense IMO. 

What happens if a group of "Lightbringers" reach the the Halls of the Dead, then ask for the restoration of a chaos god? The result could well be an impossible contradiction, a chaos god  (or goddess in this case) who wants to heal the world with chaos.

This could also explain the failure at Castle Blue, and the waxing and waning of the moon. If a dead and shattered chaos goddess re-entered the living world via the same path Yelm took, she has to be part of the compromise. She can't simply be ejected as an unwelcome incursion of chaos.

Why does Ginna Jar have to be a person? Maybe we're overthinking it, perhaps Ginna Jar IS the clan wyter. A symbolic something associated with the Wyter placed on a seat. An invitation for the Wyter to make its presence known via mystical signs or whatever if it has anything to contribute to the meeting.

Clan shaman maybe? Someone in touch with spiritual matters who isn't part of the main hierarchies and serves simple needs of folk?

Let’s not forget the Lunars use magic to tamper with the weather, conducting a hero quest to defeat Valind every winter.

One of the things Argarath does in King of Sartar from memory is defeat the Lunar attack on Winter, resulting in a far colder winter in Lunar territory.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I like this. It brings a question about an abstraction - who is theoretically your enemy - down to something more immediate. Instead of saying "Yeah, so that dude pinged as an enemy, not sure why to be honest" you would go "I sense his blood-lust and killing intent towards us!" This is a lot meatier.

I think if we think in terms of game play, we should probably keep "detect enemies" simple. If you cast "detect enemies", the spell detects enemies. I don't think it is necessary to nail the definition down too much, it detects people the players would reasonably identify as enemies, either now or later in the scenario - unless there is a good plot reason why they aren't enemies at the time the spell was cast, but became enemies later.

Having said that I think there is a case for suggesting illuminates get a pass from "detect enemies" style spells. Orlanthi think illuminates are chaos, so if you allow Orlanthi to sense illuminates using "detect enemies", you've effectively given them a "detect illuminates" spell, which doesn't seem right at all. 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

... And a very interesting hook, IMHO !

I can definitely see the Red Goddess looking at Eurmal's presence in the Empire, and thinking, "What he really needs a Harley Quinn type Mythic Girlfriend!  oh hey, and a backdoor into the Storm Tribe ftw!"

He he, all that potential - but Eurmal is the embodiment of wasted potential 😉. Don't forget, as a Light Bringer Eurmal is adept at slipping through the clutches of chaos monsters who seek to snare his power.

I think Eurmal would be a good candidate for a troublesome outlaw God in the Lunar Empire. Eurmal supports thieving and outlawry, his shrines are usually well hidden, and he provides lots of useful magics for hunted outlaws who want to stay one step ahead of the law. In the empire Orlanth isn't strong enough to restrain Eurmal - so Eurmal is pretty much free to run amok.

29 minutes ago, womble said:

IM (RQG) Glorantha, Passions do indeed serve as indicators of Enmity for the purposes of Detect/Find Enemy spells. Anyone in range who is a member of a "Hate [Group/Individual]" set, or has a Hate Passion that includes a set the caster/subject is a member of will register as Enemy, even if they are unaware of the caster/subject's existence. I'd say the same would apply if any of their Cultic relations were 'Hate' too. Illumination obscures Cult membership, though, so that element of the Detect would be defeated by Illumination, as would registering because the caster has a "Hate (Chaos)" Passion because Illumination obscures that element of your nature. 

Edit: It also, IMG, naturally includes anyone without any moral/prejudicial attitude who simply merely has the intent of inflicting significant harm on the caster/subject.

Illumination specifically allows people to hold contradictory passions. For example an illuminated disease master healer, like the Gbaji worshippers who secretly spread plague then “cured” the plague they themselves had spread, could love Malia hate Chalana Arroy, and love Chalana Arroy hate Malia all at the same time.

What does a lightbringer see when they cast “detect enemy” on an illuminated healer who is also a disease master?

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yes, well, ask your divination question carefully (as if that was news to anyone).  Detect Enemies is potentially the end of most Gloranthan spy plots when you think about it. I wonder how many cults surreptitiously cast Detect Enemies on prospective new members?  Most, I would guess.

You could play it that way, but my thinking is "detect enemy" just seems too simple a solution.

How could illumination ever have presented a threat to Glorantha if a simple "detect enemy" spell can detect a dark side illuminate who wants to loot your cult for its powers? I mean the whole Gbaji thing would have been over in five minutes - "guys, you need to cast detect enemy on any prospective initiate".

Take the following description of an illuminated Humakti who got transformed into a scorpion queen, from "The Cults of Dorastor":

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Rana was born a human of the Bilini tribe, a tomboy in a clan chief's household. When her father refused to allow her to join the Vingans, she severed her ties with her family, and joined a Humakti mercenary troop. She eventually became a Sword, and came to lead her own company. She earned a reputation and a good living by escorting merchants through the dangerous lands, and her group became much in demand after several successful trips through Dorastor. At some point she became illuminated and embraced the way of Lunar civilisation, though she remained devoted to Humakt.

Finally Rana's luck ran out. The caravan she guarded was ambushed by scorpion men and all were slain, save Rana, who was captured and chosen by the queen K'Zara, for the Ritual of Rebirth. When K'Rana hatched, she remembered her former life, but illumination shielded her from madness. Concealing her memories from K'Zara and the tribe, she grew to adulthood, and became a favoured bodyguard of the old queen. When K'Rana judged herself ready, she challenged K'Zara, winning easily. She devoured the old Queen and assumed leadership of the tribe. Unfortunately she also assumed K'Zara's chaotic features. K'Rana mastered the philosophical conflicts of her twin natures (Scorpion Queen and Sword of Humakt), then began to teach her people the ways of Humakt.

Few of her tribe were promising pupils. Most became initiates (and now support a shrine), but K'Rana hoped her children would be smarter. Her first hatchlings were of human intelligence, but her second clutch produced a group of bestial siblings, barely above animals. In dreams she consulted K'Zara's memories, and the curse of the Folk was revealed to her : Bagog is a beast by nature, and has intelligent children only when she devours people. While Scorpion Men can eat each other, this only staves off loss of intelligence for a few generations. Her first clutch produced superior children because she devoured K'Zara, wisest and strongest of the tribe.

In the three years since she became queen, K'Rana has increased her tribe's status, though it remains one of the smaller tribes in Dorastor. She renewed her ties with the Etyries merchant, trading information and escort through Dorastor for goods difficult for the folk to obtain (e.g. metal armour and weapons).

 

My point is, if a non illuminate casts "Detect Enemy" on an illuminate, how do they make sense of the answer? Rana believes she is a good Humakti, she doesn't think using her scorpion queen poison tail is an issue because its part of her. She also didn't have a problem with reconciling her faith in Humakt with her conversion to the "Lunar Way". She could probably use a scimitar without feeling bad about it, without letting it bother her - because she is an illuminate. No matter what outrages she perpetrates, she thinks she is doing the right thing, her intentions in her own mind are always good.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Actually, illumination offers you no protection against divination or detect enemies.  It only protects you from spirits of retribution.  It is quite possible for illuminates to be someone's enemy and be detected as such, and divination will work on them too, except it is expensive and most people won't bother unless there is a good reason to waste your divine magic that way this season.  Does Thanatar even get divination except via hijacking someone's brain?  I can't remember.

According to RQ3 "Lords of Terror", Divination cannot determine that an individual is illumined or has become an apostate. However "Dorastor Land of Doom" says Divination is effective on an  illuminated individual, insofar as his actions affect the appropriate cult.

So pick your sourcebook ;-).

I think I have an answer to my question though, the general feeling is Lunars would not be using illuminates to infiltrate rebels, even during the troubled spy infested age described in "Orlanth is Dead", and the Lightbringer rebel groups would never be tempted to use illuminates to infiltrate the Lunars.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Why are we discussing Lunar occupation when your original question was about the Arkati and Ralios?  As for the "surely be absolutely seething with intruige", it doesn't look it from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, the Sartar Companion or the Coming Storm.  

 

 

From "Orlanth is Dead":

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In the cities and towns, Lunar courts enforce a new kind of law, with no concern for justice. They deny the sacred right to wergild, and no one has a free voice or the consolation of kin!

Intermarriage between troops, colonizers, and Sartarites, especially in the clans of the city rings, has brought new concepts of kinship, ownership, and loyalty, diluting the Custom of Vingkot and the Laws of Heort. New Pelorian has become the language of city and confederacy court. Lunar shrines and altars have been erected in every city’s market square, while the temples and holy places of Orlanth are defiled and laid waste.

Lunar missionaries have recruited many clansmen, assisted by Tarshites who claim to follow the Old Ways, but who have turned their backs on Orlanth. Spies, informers, and collaborators are everywhere, and the clans who seek to maintain the ways of the Storm are wracked by the horror of kinstrife. Sartarites act as intermediaries or guides in the collection of taxes, in hunting and punishing rebels, and in destroying the holy places of Orlanth, Urox, and Babeester Gor. They call themselves the Moon Winds, but we call them ruptureds. These traitors use their newfound power to prosecute tribal rivalries and inter-clan feuds with murderous efficiency. So deep is the treachery that Sartar is now the battleground of tribe against tribe, clan against clan, and even sister against brother.

Even those who take the outlaw path bring hardship and danger to all. They neither plow nor herd, but instead must demand food and shelter from kin or from the steads of strangers. In a time of poor harvests and high taxes, they must live off the labor of others. How strange to see women and men from different clans and even different tribes living and fighting together! Some are truly heroes, but others are little better than bandits.

The armed uprisingsagainst the Lunars include Starbrow’s Rebellion, the Righteous Wind, The Season of Five Storms, the Firebull Moot, and the Black Arrow Callings. All have been quickly contained with a mixture of bribery, treachery, threats, and military action. With the exception of Prince Temertain, those of King Sartar’s blood are no more, and the heroes who openly opposed the Lunar army are all dead or exiled.

 

So definitely an environment with a lot of spies and intrigue, at least during some of the most desperate periods of the occupation.

I accept saying Lunars are using illuminates to spy on Lightbringers is a stretch, it doesn't actually say the collaborators are using foul magics to conceal their treachery from Orlanth. And Lightbringers accepting help from people they suspect of being illuminates is a greater stretch. 

All I am saying is in such desperate times, it seems plausible that if a reliable long term source of vital intelligence about Lunar activities was available to rebel leadership, they might be tempted not to act on their personal suspicions that their source of information was an illuminate.

54 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The problem I have with double agents joining cults is that it's too modern a mindset.  If you have a society whose idea of a liberal attitude to crime and punishment is to liberally apply the death penalty, then there isn't much interest in long-term infiltration of an evil cult to find out their nefarious plans - just kill them all as well as people in the wrong place to be certain (c.f. the likely fate of the villagers in Gaumata's Vision).  Want to know where the chaotic cult is meeting?  For that you have informers (I saw X meeting Y to pray to Z) and witchfindes (including our Storm Bullies).

 

I wouldn't expect some hill tribe to mount a sophisticated infiltration effort. 

But cities and town under Lunar occupation would surely be absolutely seething with intrigue. Only the very clever and cautious would survive even the first few days of imperial infiltration efforts.

There's a hilarious scene in the book "Bill, The Galactic Hero" in which thousands of rebels storm key buildings in the Imperial City - but as the rebels charge, their numbers rapidly dwindle, until the only person left is the leader of the movement. All the rebels except the leader were imperial spies, but there were so many imperial intelligence agencies running covert operations against the rebels, the agencies never realised the rebellion was a figment of their paranoia - all except its hapless leader. 

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

LOL since when do religions have to make sense?  I agree with the general idea, don't get me wrong, but if it is going on, it is likely in Ralios not Dragon Pass, as there are all those other Arkats there, and some of these new outfits probably don't play by the same rules as the old Arkat secret society.  The older Arkat outfit is all about protecting the Hero Plane, and probably aren't that worried about other chaos.

Ah but these are desperate times.

The Lunar Empire attacks the hero plane with chaos even while it conquers the mundane world using every tool at its disposal, fair or foul.

There is even a plot to kill Orlanth, a plot which is perilously close to success.

Arkat repeatedly betrayed his gods and broke his oaths to those gods in his single minded pursuit of Gbaji. 

Are you guys seriously saying the temptation to use the dark side to serve good never occurred to anyone?

You might never fully trust your illuminated spy, but if they provide desperately needed high quality intelligence and faithful service, would you really be in that much of a rush to kill them?

This is the slippery slope of illumination - the end justifies the means, if that end is worthy enough.