d(sqrt(-1))

5 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

It depends whether 'soundless' can be taken to mean that no sound at all is emitted by the subject, in which case they would effectively have a 'stealth' coating rendering them invisible to troll sonar. I can't remember if this cropped up in gaming before, but I now have a player with a human Argan Argar initiate with Darkwalk, so it is going to be quite important whether the spell works (for whatever your particular interprestarion of that is 😉) against trolls as well as humans.

Since Argan Argar is supposed to be the interface between troll and human cultures I do feel that the spell should work against both species.

Yes I too have a player with an Argan Argar PC with Dark Walk and Create Shadow, hence my questions. In fact I initially talked them out of having Summon Shade and Control Cult Spirit on the basis that it would use all their rune points and they might not have such a good chance of controlling the elemental when it turned up.

It could be that Dark Walk gives a "stealth" ability that stops Darksense pinging subjects of the spell. 

So if another PC needs a Heal Wound urgently I have to:

• move to their position (round 1)
• Cast Heal Wound, say with 10 MPs, on SR 11 of round 2?

Even if I can move there in (say) 6 strike ranks I can't cast the Heal Wound on Round 1?

Does the MP used on Heal Wound not count as "boosting"? The spell says "The caster must simultaneously spend magic points equal to the points to be healed" which sounds as though they don't count towards the casting time. (Psullie said this above).

The definition of boosting on p248 seems to read that "boosting" is only done to overcome Countermagic etc, similarly for sorcery p387, but the section on Strike Ranks p255 does say that the SR of a spell is DEX SR + additional points of spell + boosting magic points for Spirit Magic (although the Spirit Magic section doesn't mention boosting as the other two do).

EDIT: Just went back and read the discussion in the Rules thread and it does indeed say SR1

As a Strike Rank aside, the wording (p314) for casting Rune Magic says "Rune magic spells take effect at strike rank 1". Now does that mean SR 1 of the round, or that they only take 1 SR to cast? With the former, you'd have to cast it before moving, whereas with the second, you could move first, then cast it. It feels like it ought to be the second but the wording is odd. The example is not much help either way.

42 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

Good point. It's defined as totally invisible and soundless, so it should work against troll darksense as well. Although I notice in the new Bestiary that troll darksense is only implied to be sound based (in the Sea Troll section), whereas it used to be explicit in Trollpak and previous works on trollkind.

I thought that Darksense was always defined as basically sonar? If the protected PC is soundless that doesn't stop Trolls pinging them. The Silence spell (p264) says that it only stops noise created by the users movement. Ok, it's a Spirit spell so the same may not apply to Rune magic...

32 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Be careful with the Create Shadow and Dark Walk combination, it suffers from the same problems as Mist Cloud. You see a blob of darkness that moves around. Sure, you can't be seen inside the Shadow, but people can see the shadow moving around. I have used Create Shadow to link two areas of shadow, allowing me to move between them with Dark Walk.

Dark Walk is a funny spell, in some ways. "So, I can't be seen when it's dark? But it's dark, so I wouldn't be able to be seen, would I?"

Well I was wondering about the use of it for Trolls seeing as they can see in darkness anyway, but it's great for Argan Argar during the day...I was thinking about counters to it and yes one disadvantage is that there is this hazy/shadowy/darkness blob of 9mx6mx6m moving around, bound to make people suspicious and drop missile/area attacks etc in there, or just dispel it and you are left there standing like a numpty.

Given that the spell says "9mx6mx6m or any other shape with the same volume" (324 cubic metres) I'd be strongly tempted to make it 2m (high) x 13m x 12m or 2m high x 7m radius (approx.), especially if you can move it around reasonably easily. Unless you are a Troll, 2m should be high enough to cover you so you stand a reasonable chance of not being hit too much. Won't help much vs Darksense or Detect Life etc I guess.

Mist Cloud I hadn't read - 2m diameter for each Rune Point covers a lot smaller area, and it looks like it doesn't move so it's a bit like the equivalent of D&D Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist.

Interesting idea about moving between shadows with Dark Walk - I don't get that from reading the spell but it could make mythic sense.

46 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I would say they probably have to concentrate to move it, but could do something else as well, perhaps with an INTx5 Roll.

If the Shadow is like a Shade and has intelligence, the caster could simple give it an order to move to a certain place.

Sounds a reasonable interpretation TBH. I'm not sure if the intention is that it's like a shade, or "just" darkness though.

46 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I think we used the "That's silly" rule for that in RQ2 and treated it like Invisibility. 

Invisibility while in darkness/shadow? That's also a decent interpretation that makes more sense. Since Invisibility is a 3 point Rune Spell, here you are getting a limited form of Invisibility for (possibly) 2 points - 1 point for Create Shadow and 1 point for Dark Walk, and that also takes you 2 rounds to set up as opposed to 1. It also fits with the interpretation that it's mostly useful for sneaking about but still makes it useful for combat. Sold! I'll give it a go.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Quote

Re Create Shadow: I think it has to be commanded by the caster and moves according to the caster's wishes. After all, this nis not just a piece of darkness, it is a living shadow.

So does the caster have to concentrate to move it? Can they do something else at the same time?

Quote

Re Dark Walk: Why Range Self? I could cast it on someone else 30 yards away.

The wording is odd, it says "allows the user to be totally invisible and soundless in darkness and shadow to anyone within range. Blend-in is total". Cults of Prax says the same with the exception that is also says the spell is stackable to 2 points for double duration. The way it reads to me is that is cast on the caster ("the user" but it could possibly be "the target") but makes you invisible and soundless to anyone within 160 metres.

2 Points of Create Shadow for a Shade seems reasonable to me.

5 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

You're trying to define the spell logically within the framework of the rules. I'm just saying what works for practical GMing.

A 1 pt rune spell that gives you the equivalent of 15 points of shimmer for 15 minutes as well as total invisibility is not balanced with other rune spells, so I don't use it that way.

That's not to say that your interpretation in incorrect or that mine is right, but since every Orlanth Adventurous initiate has access to the spell you would have to wonder how any night time ambush against the lunars could ever have failed to wipe them out completely if we define it your way. From the way that the thread on the official rules interpreations is going I do not expect there to be any sort of official response except to say that it is up each GM to decide how to play the spell within the context of his own campaign.

Sure, what I'd really like is an idea of the intention - I can make up my own interpretations, but it would be nice to know if they are reasonably accurate or not. 

The difficulty I have is that spell A says "creates darkness" and spell B says "works in darkness" but the resolution seems to be "you can't do the things in darkness that other rules say you can". So if the Argan Argar player wants to create shadows and sneak about undetectably they can, but for some reason that doesn't work in combat is a huge suspension of disbelief problem

Sure, hence my question!

It's not the same as the Invisibility spell, which makes you reappear when you attack until the end of the round, because it's giving you Being Unseen and Soundless while in darkness - and the rules definitely say that people who can't see in darkness are at -75% to attacks and parries. Not normally a problem if you've got Trolls in a dark cave etc (well except for the usual problems with Trolls in a dark cave!), but the Create Shadow spell explicitly says that 1 point is enough for Dark Walk to function. So I'm at a bit of a loss to see what it is for exactly. If you can sneak around without being detected why wouldn't that help in combat too?

10 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

I've always treated this as if the target has successfully made a hide in cover roll and a move silently roll. It allows an initial attack by surprise against an unsuspecting enemy, but gives no further advantage while engaged in combat. I feel it should be a stealth facilitator rather than a combat augmentor.

That's interesting, as I'd assumed that it doesn't wear off once you attack (it doesn't say either way), so you'd be basically invisible and soundless for the full 15 minutes. I can't see how that wouldn't give you a big combat advantage really!

38 minutes ago, Crel said:

My understanding is that all dimensions are multiplied. Length, width, and depth AFAIK (memory, not re-reading). I think it just works, no POW roll needed. DEXx3 makes it somewhat more dangerous than flat Dodge when used on highly-skilled opponents, but I don't think using Dodge instead is too crazy. It's worth thinking about if someone in the middle of a huge rift can realistically avoid it, though--at the least, I reckon they'd be forced to move if they succeeded their check. Maybe they'd need to roll a special, too.

I just found the text to be ambiguous on the dimensions thing (are stacked Rune Points meant to be linear or geometric?). Thinking about mounted PCs I guess I'd possibly give them a Ride roll to leap off a mount if it was about to fall in a big hole.

If it just works with no POW vs POW that would seem to be an easy way to get rid of opposition with a starting PC - Rune Lord attacking? Oh dear they probably just fell down a 15 meter crevasse...

Interestingly there's no mention of the fissure closing up again, so I guess the area near the Shaker temple in Old Tarsh must be riven with giant holes in the ground!

(Based on PhillHibbs' Specific Sorcery Spells thread) 

Caveat: I posted these to the RQ Core Rules thread but with a game coming up on Tuesday I'd be interested to see what people think generally as they might become relevant:

Create Fissure (p324) : Are all dimensions multiplied by the number of points in the spell, or just the depth? If you create it underneath a target do you have to overcome their POW or does it just work? Why DEX x 3 rather than Dodge to not fall in?

Create Shadow (p235): Can it be cast on a target and move with the target (earlier versions were immobile AFAIK, but this version says it has a movement rate of 12 - so how does it move? Or is that a maximum if it is cast on a target?). If One point is enough to allow Dark Walk - does that mean I can cast both and become invisible and soundless for 15 minutes while moving around even in daylight (well there will be a bit of haze)?

Dark Walk (p235): This is really a range Self spell isn't it? The implication is that it works on the caster. I guess it means that anyone attacking gets -75% to hit etc as per total darkness? Anyone more than 160m away can see the target normally if it's not night?

Summon Elemental (p342): Can I summon an Elemental directly on someone within Range? Do I need a POW vs POW roll to do so? How much Create Shadow do I need to summon or maintain a darkness elemental in daytime: one pt, two, or more? I'm guessing two from the Create Shadow write up since that blocks daylight on Cave Trolls and Trollkin, or maybe one since that's enough for Dark Walk to work?

I always thought that without any restrictions placed on the item you'd know the spells when you picked up the matrix.

A PC is normally (5*3) + (2*2) dice = 19 dice. So roll 19 dice and allocate 3 per attribute (or 2 dice (+6) for INT and SIZ). I guess you  could even allocate more than 3 or 2 dice to an attribute if the GM was happy and you don't go over the attribute max.

Or assume dice will roll 3.5 on average (or 4) = 66/67 (if you use 3.5 average) or 76 (if you use 4)

Also note that with attribute total 92 or less you get an extra 3 points to spend. Pretty much everyone is going to get that, as (92 - 12 (INT/POW))/19 = 4.21, so you'd need to roll 4+ on every single die not to be eligible, and then you get +2/+1 to further attributes depending on elemental runes and then possibly homeland modifications too.

All great suggestions, thanks - I'd be interested to hear what happened in later sessions!

Nice ideas. Oddly enough one of the PCs is an Argan Argar merchant. I'll need to check where their nearest temple/shrine is. They don't have an Orlanth initiate though.

For the last one, when you say an axe to ritually drive Redeye back, do you have any thoughts on how that might work (other than just hitting him with it I guess!)

I think the PCs have to go to Queen Leika anyway to be confirmed Thane, so it fits in for them to follow it up in this way.

Ok, I'll need to read about Tarndisi then. Not much I'm familiar with really!

Given that's likely to be later on when the PCs are tougher, anything for the short term?

Thanks.

I'm going to run "Defending Apple Lane" from the GM pack on Tuesday. Reading through it I'm just wondering - if the Tusk Riders flee back to Pig Hollow and Redeye the boar turns up, what happens then? The PCs can run away as recommended, but that then doesn't solve the problem of the Tusk Riders and leaves things unresolved. Ok, the Tusk Riders could continue to be a problem, or they might wander off to somewhere easier to raid etc, but those all seem a bit uninteresting.

Does anyone have any interesting thoughts about what else might happen? Given that Redeye has been there for ~50 years and is pretty tough, he's not going anywhere soon. Eventually I guess the PCs could take him out, but might this put them in Ernalda's bad books?

23 hours ago, Jeff said:

Heck, if there was a trollkin with a negative damage modifier using a club, I'd do the double negative special damage because it adds to the pathos.

If the trollkin rolled < 0 he could actually heal you!

Wow I don't know what to say really. He will be missed.

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Our high level RQ2 campaign had Defence around the 80% mark, which was very effective against normal NPCs. Some had Defence of over 100%, but they had high INT so made the increase more often, I think Raven, our Aldryami Yelornan, had INT 24, but she didn't play as often as some PCs.

Ok, I was thinking that you would be a likely person to have experience of it. I guess even at high levels of defence, if you need to split it between multiple attackers it's not that effective. Also ISTR that you had PCs with skills in the 100s of percentages, so -80% might not have been such a great effect, relatively. But as you say, against normal NPCs pretty effective.

True, but Defence was normally in the 0-10% range and much harder to improve (roll INT or less on d% in any adventure where it made the difference between being hit or not). I suppose if you played a PC for years it might get up to high levels - can't find my Rune Masters pdf at the moment to check. 

(It was never really clarified if negative Defence counted or not - none of the monsters with high SIZ etc had a Defence lower then zero though)

One tweak I've considered (not tried, but it isn't actually contradicted by the original RQ2 rules), is a way to avoid the bookkeeping on locations, but keeps the rules pretty much the same:

- The location HPs are viewed as thresholds. Any damage to them comes off general HP as normal, but you DON'T track/reduce the location HP. You DO still track wounds in locations and also blows doing double or triple damage. e.g. Arm has 4 HP. If hit for 3-, that comes off general HP, if 4+, arm incapacitated and you note a wound (up to 8 HP max) and lose general HP, if 12+ arm severed.

If nothing else I think this would be useful for GMs, and it's not actually that different from how things currently work.

6 hours ago, MOB said:

We are planning to release updated PDFs of RQG, the Bestiary and the Gamer Screen Pack soon. If you previously bought any of these, you'll be able to download them from your Chaosium account or your DTRPG account. When the updates have been released I will note it on BRP Central.

Will there be a log of changes? As someone who uses the rulebook rather than the pdf it's a bit annoying if I have to hunt through to find the changes from the print version.

1 hour ago, styopa said:

Why settle for plagiarizing; after all Sandy WROTE *actual* RQ Tekumel rules. 

We in fact use them (somewhat reskinned) for Malkionism.  http://www.tekumel.com/downloads/RQtekumel.pdf 

Sure, in fact I have my own expanded version that includes Shamans and other creatures from Gardasiyal and the Tekumel Bestiary. But the Tekumel temples and spells are structured somewhat differently from Glorantha cults

I used to use Sandy's Sorcery Rules and Shaman rules for RQ too.