SDLeary

Well a few,

First the changes doesn't address the problem-that is that a wide damage roll will cause some weapons to perform erratically against ballistic armor.

Secondly, the rule would serious weaken body armor-to the point of it not being worth the bother. A half damage hit from a rifle will probably disable a location or cause a major wound. The high NIJ rated armor is designed to prevent that. A .32 round fired inot a Class III vest should do less damage than if fired into a Class II or Class I vest.

There is no real difference in protection with the Damage Resiistance approach. A 15 point vest might work more often than an 8 point vest, but both would still only give 1/2 damage protection.

OK then... how about the damage value that penetrates soft armour be used vs the location hit points in a resistance roll... failure equals a knockout and/or reduction of fatigue to 0. Or, perhaps, some sort of degrees suggested above, but rather than something with so many options, we allow specials and crits. Special 1/4 damage, crit, none.

I suggest this because, as I understand it, and have seen photos demonstrating, soft armours do NOT prevent damage, they prevent penetration and tearing damage. Trauma still occurs (being spread out over a much larger area), possibly including internal bleeding and broken ribs. Even plates in semi rigid armours do this, but to a far lesser degree.

Another option would be to introduce Stun damage in a game with firearms and treat the damage not "stopped" by the value of the vest as Stun.

SDLeary

I would like to suggest that for ballistic armour, rather than adding a penetration value, a method that is based on the RQ3 spell Damage Resistance be used.

For flexible armour (no inserts), rather than no damage though, if the roll IS made, the shot does half damage, and causes no bleeding. If a single shot is twice the value, or higher, then the shot does full damage.

For Rigid armour, as per damage resistance.

Somewhat easier than developing a whole slew of penetration values and AP values for objects, unless of course thats your thing! ;-)

Thoughts?

SDLeary

I think you can still buy SB5 from Chaosium's site... $29.95.

I'm not sure why it's selling on Amazon for $42.50...

What was Moorcock's big gripe with the game anyway?

I mean, at one time he must have approved of it and made a contract... and written a favorable blurb for it.

I read some online forums where the locals seemed to think buying or even playing the game was tantamount to taking a squat on Moorcock's head.

Much as I've enjoyed his books (most of them) it's hardly high-art... didn't he write a lot of them in one sitting?

He's got some great ideas but can also slip into hackery.

I'm figuring that his main complaint is about money... that Chaosium wasn't supporting the game heavily enough to generate a lot of royalty checks or whatever...

Elric is his laurel to rest on, surely, but I can't say as I'm too worried about 'dishonoring' his wishes... and I can't see the MRQ version succeeding where Chaosium's version 'failed'...

IIRC its more about him getting SOME royalties. Apparently, originally he wrote the contract in such a way that Chaosium was not required to pay royalties at all. And once games got larger, he was miffed because he couldn't convince Chaosium to renegotiate.

SDLeary

Perhaps the biggest abuse of "conventional wisdom" is the .45s reputation as a "manstopper". It right up there with bullets "knocking" people back or down.

Well... to be fair, the .45 is MORE of a man stopper than the 9mmP. Energy is generally higher across the field, and the bullet tends to be of larger diameter, and more mass. This tends to relate to the amount of energy actually transfered to the target. This is ONE of the reasons that special forces the world over use it on operation; the other being its subsonic nature.

The shape of the .45 ACP though is something of a slightly elongated ball (american football or rugby ball, with a flat end) and thus should not have the overall penetration (target depth) of the sleeker and narrower 9mmP.

SDLeary

Im aware that the EDU stat isnt actually factored into any of the skill basics. Im still on the fence if its gonna be used or not

In a SciFi, I would think that Edu would be almost required. Despite being a military campaign, isn't there the chance they would have a techie or science type anywhere in the campaign? If so, how do you arrive at their techie points? Not something the listed MOS seem to handle.

SDLeary

Hmmm... found the passage. Reads the same. This had never registered when I first read it.

Such is the arrangement, general and detailed of the phalanx. It remains now to compare with it the peculiarities and distinctive features of the Roman arms and tactics. Now, a Roman soldier in full armor also requires a space of three square feet. But as their method of fighting admits of individual motion for each man---because he defends his body with a shield, which he moves about to any point from which a blow is coming, and because he uses his sword both for cutting and stabbing---it is evident that each man must have a clear space, and an interval of at least three feet both on flank and rear if he is to do his duty with any effect. The result of this will be that each Roman soldier will face two of the front rank of a phalanx, so that he has to encounter and fight against ten spears, which one man cannot find time even to cut away, when once the two lines are engaged, nor force his way through easily---seeing that the Roman front ranks are not supported by the rear ranks, either by way of adding weight to their charge, or vigor to the use of their swords. Therefore, it may readily be understood that, as I said before, it is impossible to confront a charge of the phalanx, so long as it retains its proper formation and strength.

-Polybius, The Histories, Chapter 34

I wonder though if this was the case during the initial engagement, or after the charge and wall has broken apart.

Here is the link ( I couldn't find my own copy ):

Ancient History Sourcebook: Polybius: The Roman Maniple vs. The Macedonian Phalanx

SDLeary

According to Polybus, in "General History of the roman Republic", about the battle of Cynoscephales (chapter 18 to 33), (I'm translating my french translation to english, so some words may be different to one direct latin to english text":

"Each roman legionnaire also uses only 3 feet of terrain; but to be able to both cover themselves with their shields and give cutting strike, they need some space to be given to them, having between them, wether on the side or front to back, at least 3 feet of free space if they want to be able to move freely."

So, the order of battle is made to allow cutting strikes.

After Marius, the rule is to use thrusting strikes to provoke bleeding wounds, but this is 100 years later (Cynoscephales is -197, marius is around -100).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Dayum... Thanks! Now I'm going to have to go dig out my copy of Polybius to see if thats the way it reads in an English translation! ;-)

SDLeary

That is the drawback to pushing out product. One reason why stuff used to tricky out was that the same half dozen people wrote it. The best stuff for RQ2 is all written by the same people. That's why the quality is consistent. Open the floodgates and everything goes down except for quantity.

I'd rather buy one book like the Great Pendragon campaign then a dozen half-assed OGL Pendragon books. Same with BRP.

"The Great Argrath Campaign"??

SDLeary

I haven't seen a non-shrink-wrapped game (other than hardcovers, and even those are inconsistent) at a gaming store in the greater Los Angeles area of a book of current vintage in nearly a decade now. If you're finding them in your area, far as I can tell you're lucky.

Up here in the SF area, most stuff isn't shrunk. IN fact, my current fav FLGS HATES books shrunk. Makes it hard for them to learn about the product too.

SDLeary

An alternate easy way might be to include Pendragon-style personality mechanics, and make one of those spectrums "Sane ---- Insane". Then, you could simply adjust your total along the track according to failed rolls and character action. I've long had a hankering for a Call of Cthulhu with personality mechanics in it...

Woo! Now this sounds interesting.

Perhaps with an additional pairing... Hardened/Sympathetic, and some way to note particular situations that might reoccur.

Time to go back to the Classics books to find the full list of pairings.

SDLeary

I'm happy to report that I just got an email back from Dustin asking me to send on a full outline and schedule for my first sourcebook for BRP. From there we move to contract.

Since it's not a rulebook, and is mostly source material, it should be pretty quick from outline to completion.

More information when it's approved and work has begun.

Woot!

SDLeary

I think he was just saying that damage/hit location matters to some extent for every weapon... not that they did the same damage.

As the proud owner of a big stack of Phoenix Command books (and having actually played games with them on a few occasions) I agree with Badcat... it's plausibility vs. playability every time. I think the stats in BRP are sufficiently believable and very playable... and I can't think of any modern game that didn't get arguments from some gun enthusiasts saying it was inaccurate... even Phoenix Command.

Yes! I see that now! Sorry Nightshade!

Dayum coffee should have kicked in sooner

SDLeary

The reasons why a shortspear wasn't the standard weapon for roman infantry.

1) In the early years, the legions were still using longspears in Phalanxes.

2) In latter years, the Legion had worked out how to defeat the Phalanx, and by then had acquired the Spanish thrusting shortsword (gladius), which was ffaster and more effective for the style of fighting used by the Romans. Epscially if you have your front ranks "lock & lift" the enemy's spears and let you shotswordmen duck underneath and butcher them. Which is just what the Romans used to do against Phalanxes. But is is pretty much the gladius that kept the shortspear from becoming the primary weapon of the Legions.

Until they started facing Cavalry

SDLeary

Its interesting that the roman infantry as one of the most successful armies in history didnt use the spear or a lance. Instead they used gladius and spatha combined with shield as their main armament. (The cavallery and the cohors equitatae has been the exception to this. They used a medium spear - the hasta - in close combat from horseback)

The romans has been surely experts in fighting techniques (and tactics as well) so I think they knew why they did issue a sword and not a spear as main weapon to their legionaires.

BUZZ! Thank you for playing!

Before the adoption of the pilum (Marian reforms IIRC), Legionaries were spearmen, called Hastati, and used the Hasta (spear). Marius introduced reforms which made the army a more mobile force on the battlefield, and a javelin replacing the spear fit the bill nicely. Enter the Pilum.

Once the army began to encounter massed cavalry (Parthians and later Goths, not to mention their own), the Pilum became a lot less effective, and they moved back to being spearmen. Ideally they would still carry 2 javelins, now called a Spiculum, or darts called plumbata.

Throughout their entire history, as far as can be told, legionaries carried swords also. Exceptions exist. Early on a legionary had to provide his own equipment... skirmishers could have axes or maces in addition to their missiles.

Romans were never primarily swordsmen as we understand it; the gladius being used as a thrusting weapon from within the shield wall. Traditional swordsmen tend to do poorly in a shield wall. Even when they adopted the spatha, it tended to be a thrusting weapon.

SDLeary

If you were going to do that, you'd need to do it for more than guns; almost all piercing weapons are dependent on location for a lot of their damage; its virtually as true of an arrow or an epee as it is of a bullet.

Not quite so. Once a bullet enters, a crap load internal damage can be done. Take a block of ballistic gel. Shoot it with an arrow, stab it with an epee, and shoot it with both a pistol and rilfe. The patterns for the firearms will probably be much much more violent. Thats what happens inside a body.

Now if you wiggle the epee or spear around while inside the wound... :eek:

SDLeary

2 more points here.

As far as development of axes and swords. The ancient Chinese used what is sometimes called a " dagger ax" in which the ax head was more like dagger blade then what we think of as a ax blade.

And I have always considered the Falcatta and Kopis the same weapon for game purposes as the Kukri. I really prefer the term falcatta over Kukri but if I use that term nobody knows what I'm talking about except Badcat

As far as the Falcatta/Kopis is concerned, there are many who think that it is a refinement of what looks to be a sword/axe. The Khopesh (sickle sword) of the New Kingdom in Egypt. Ironically, it appears to have been edged on the outer sweep, not in the concave like a sickle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh

Just for reference, I do NOT like Wikipedia as an authority, but it makes for a quick and dirty reference, and it had a pic!

SDLeary

The other thread about Cthulhu Rising got me to thinking about CDA. Could it take a similar treatment and survive? Could the mythos creatures become demons? The Mythos and Non-Mythos Grimoires get the WoW/BRP magic treatment?

This would give us a gritty low fantasy setting, and would bring this excellent work back from limbo. Call it something along the lines of Torchlight

SDLeary

Cthulhu Rising would probably be the best route. Scrubbing the mythos references and calling the beasties aliens would not only be expedient, but would provide the game with a well made setting. Is it Aliens/2300 like? YES! Which means you can run Traveller like games, though a bit low tech for that genre; Aliens/2300 middle tech reach-for-the-stars type games; and if you play on the core world/worlds, you might also be able to due Cyberpunk. Firefly like stuff comes to mind too.

How about "Torchlight" as a fantasy setting? A re-edit would have to be done, of course. Cthulhu monsters fit right-in in a fantasy setting as demon types. Fantasy Europe would be gritty enough for BRP. Also, using the powers and magic options, some could do something ala ArsMagica if thats your type of thing.

Yes, I'm talking about CDA (it is currently OOP after all), perhaps with the fully revised/completed Pagan Call scenario.

SDLeary

He was using the Jane's as a reference when working specifically on Cthulhu Now. I'll have to go back and compare those tables to the current edition.

SDLeary

Some of the weapon damage has changed for some reason.

.375 Magnum: 1d8+1d4 in the current Cthulhu, and 1d8+1d6 in Cthulhu Now. The .38 Automatic is currently 1d10, was 1d8 in CN.

Looks like a few others too, but pistols have been mentioned, so there ya go.

This is true. In BRP you can fire arrows at the same rate as a 9mm, and that's not really realistic.

SGL.

Yes and no. At least in Cthulhu. There is a spot rule on p.63, current edition.

It is written thus:

This is slightly different from the way it appeared in its first iteration in Chtulhu Now:

The chance there is also one fifth.

Also in Chtulhu Now, if you used the optional Hit Locations rule, you had another option, Aimed Shots, which applied called location shots from RQ to firearms.

SDLeary

Not too shabby Rurik,

BTW, Sandy may have used Jane's to get the weapon damages, but for whatever reason, those numbers were thrown out when they revised the game. First edition CoC damages are different that what is is 5th, and seem to work better IMO.

He was using the Jane's as a reference when working specifically on Cthulhu Now. I'll have to go back and compare those tables to the current edition.

SDLeary

While impact energy isn't a bad metric, its not entirely the whole story, either.

Very true. But for a simple (in terms of combat) game like Cthulhu, it made sense. And it does give a very very good baseline to work from.

By enforcing impailing (I would limit this to first round in a burst, as in the rules), and criticals, you enable almost any round to not only take big hulking types down, but to kill them.

I've been toying with the idea that criticals are auto death in the head and chest, but for NPCs... kindof a toned down mook rule.

Adding special rules for round types, etc., would cover most variation. For example, the 4.6 x 30mm round used in the new MP7 PDW. Its a small and light round (For those of us in the states, the bullet is .177 cal., the same as many air rifles). Because of this the actual standard damage should be low. The round has excellent armor penetration though. On a special, I would allow three rolls of the dice for damage, similar to the way a rapier impales in RQ.

Other options might be impaling for jacketed rounds, and nothing special for unjacketed. Not sure about hollow points and the like though.

The extremely long winded point being that the current tables can be tweaked for better real world performance, and left alone for the light games.

SDLeary

And, FWIW, when Sandy devised the damages for Cthulhu Now, he did use Jane's. IIRC, he based the damage on the amount of pressure at impact.

It seems to make more sense, as listed above, to enforce Impale and Critical hits, along with major wound than to rework the whole list.

SDLeary