Dogboy

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

What do you mean by diversity Dan? I see plenty of Holy Country influences on our Sartar stuff, some Pelorian influences, and even the occasional Prax bit (more in use of Praxian beasts, leather, and hide - the Praxians don't have much architectural influence on folk in Dragon Pass!). 

Maybe I've missed them, as you give less context in RQG than in HQG for Gloranthan art styles. can you point some out?

I will say it seems odd to me that you see the Unity Council as pushing a single style of art, considering their background (later on, possibly, but initially they will be wide ranging in their art styles). Similarly the Horse Lords, as nomads, are likely to be patrons of the local folk arts.
 

The Scythian/Last Warrior - Is a Russian  movie that has a lot of crazy Gloranthan flavour.
Midsommar - A bunch of Godlearner apprentices go on a jolly to pagan lands. Hilarity ensues.
I agree on Warrior (Korea), but would throw in Warrior (India) as a tale of a lone Humakti who seeks his lost honour.
It also bears reapeating, one of the finest non-Gloranthan Gloranthan comics is Mesolith. It has serious Votanki/Hsunchen vibes.

On 6/2/2022 at 7:45 AM, M Helsdon said:

The available material primarily represents Dragon Pass, Prax, and the Holy Country, which is a very small area, and to a lesser degree southern Peloria. That's a relatively small geographic area. For a wider view, there's the Guide.

Dragon Pass is a pretty cosmopolitan, and I'd expect some diversity there. Prax doesn't seem to get a look in.

Anyway, it seems I'm the only one who finds this annoying, so I'll shut up

2 hours ago, svensson said:

The Lightbringers enacted the greatest Heroquest ever in order to make the Great Compromise possible. What's more, they didn't have any pre-trod path to go by. They had to journey to Hell without the mystic support of clan or tribe and find their own way to correct Orlanth's mistakes.

They were gods, not heroquesters, none of what they did was pre-trod, although they did have the mystic backing of their tribe. Also the Lightbringers quest is likely a post-Compromise myth: why would the King of the Gods suck up to Yelm? The original myth is about going to Hell to wake Ernalda, only with the First Council did the Lightbringers bring back Yelm, thus the Sunstop.
 

On 5/30/2022 at 10:11 AM, JRE said:

Anything that fits in a post will be a gross simplification. And using RW art outside of its own context will also be a simplified analogy. But we also need visual markers to help immersion.

That said, I expect most people in Glorantha will assume that the statuette is earth related, but they will consider it is from somewhere else, or possibly a copy of old art, rather than something people still do. 

OK, the original posts are longer than anything that has been written about Art history in Glorantha. By a long way. Mostly because AH has by and large not been written about. But just because it is voluminous, doesn't mean it's correct. One look at the Prosopedia (the one in Gods of Glorantha, not the up coming one), tells you art in 3rd Age Glorantha is very diverse. Hell, that booklet is why I got into doing Gloranthan art in the first place. I worry that RQG and it's supplements are undermining that somewhat.

On 5/27/2022 at 12:41 PM, jajagappa said:

Look at the RQ Quickstart scenario!  This is a classic Earth goddess.

The question is, is this representation a "Second Age Reduction in Complexity" or a sign that the original Posts are a gross oversimplification of a complex subject 😜.

On 5/28/2022 at 9:07 AM, soltakss said:

Kuschile archery is useless to foot soldiers.It is good for cavalry, though.

 

 

You misunderstood me. It is a leg up for a people with no propensity for it. They are crap cavilry, and it gives them some ability in an area they are weak in.

27 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

A good thought, but I feel this would not be rough enough!

According to Trollpak, he's correct, but it would be a couple of metres tall and chewed into the rock.

On 3/18/2022 at 4:40 PM, M Helsdon said:

Originally posted on FaceBook by @Jeff

 

A HISTORY OF GLORANTHAN ART, PART I

DAWN AGE

At the Dawn, there were basically two cultural centers - Dragon Pass (also known as the Theyalans or the Unity Council) and the Peloria lowlands ruled by the Horse Lords.

 

This is why I don't always agree with Jeff: Breaks down Glorantha into 2 parts of Central Genertela. IMO Genertela, alone, is much more diverse than this.

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

IMHO there is no correct answer. 

"If they worship me and give me magic/pow points, i am whatever they want that i am*."

* Within my remit. Limitations may apply. May cause side effects, like inability to eat bird flesh or wash on some days. If these cause issue, consult your priest. Terms and conditions can be found at your nearest temple.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

I may overstate these things a bit for dramatic effect (and comedy value).  I think what we are dealing with could be called the MASKS OF YELMALIO (taking a leaf out of CoC).  Is this actually the same deity?  I don't think so.  On the other hand, Time didn't used to exist, so causality is a mess Before Time.  I am not so blind as to pretend that they are not highly similar deities, I just think Glorantha is richer when we include diversity.  In this case, I would suggest modifying the cult write-up for Yelmalio a bit to incorporate the differences in the single cult write-up.

This is why I used the term Entity. Though the cults of Yelmalio, Kargzant, and Elmal have some overlap, they will have differing myths. Differing myths, means differing powers. These aren't the "same" gods, and anyone saying so probably doesn't understand Gloranthan gods, IMO. If Elmal has a Hill of Gold, it is unlikely that it includes him being rolled by Orlanth. More likely he gifts him one of his powers, as the Loyal Thane of Orlanth he is. Similarly, Kargzant that was, wasn't Yelmalio, as the horse people have no use for a footsoldier cult. Instead they would have the Plain of Gold myth, in which he is purified of extraenous powers, to reveal the Kernal of his being, representing the predation in the Darkness.

Cults syncretise, Gods don't.

The problem we have is that we only have Jeff to write this. Jeff is Chaosiums' Greg, and he has a very clear idea of Glorantha works. He has to do the majority of the writing, and frankly it's a big task. Asking him to do this kind of writing is going to increase his workload significantly. I wouldn't want to burden him more.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Grrr...!

Why does everyone want to destroy Light deity diversity?  Damn your eyes Monrogh and your hegemonizing swarm mentality! This is pure Godlearner Syncretism ! Kargzant and Elmal are NOT Yelmalio.  I mean what about their associated cults and subcults?  Does Yelmalio get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get Orlanth?  These deities are simply not the same person, and this idea of an over-arching Yelmalio is Godlearnerism.

On one hand, I understand it: These gods all refer to one entity. But on the other, the cults themselves are very indivudal things. For Jeff, I say you homogenise as much as you need to get the books out, but I also know that there is a lot that these cults won't agree on.

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

He was worshipped by the early Horse Nomads.  The Pure Horse People worshipped a superior god as a result of something we donn't know and need not speculate about here.  Now consider the view of the Pure Horse People of Prax - you have two gods to worship for the same magic.  One is a Star at the Centre of the Nigh Sky while the other is a loser god of an inferior planet whose worshippers are well known to them as walkers and trash.  Being Pure Horse Folk, they would accept the god with high status. 

You are conflating the cults of Yelmalio & Kargzant. They are not the same thing, they just talk to the same entity. For horse people, he might be a better fit: lance and shield  charges, archery etc.

6 hours ago, Tabor said:

Polestar need not be foreign. He saved a lot of people during the great darkness, maybe one of them was your grazelander clan. Besides, any solar enough culture is going to have a name and great respect for one of the most important stars.

I meant that in that Pole Star, as a cult, is a lowlander war cult. It's the cult of officers. Pentans know the entity, but likely, not in the same way. It's like this conversation, Yelmalio is known as Kargzant by early horse nomads. It doesn't mean they worshipped the same cults as the Sun Dome, it means they worshipped the same entity.
Now they worship an amalgamated Sun god (at least we have the Grazer, not the Dara Happan, cult in the rules, even if i'm not totally sold on it). To my mind, Yelm should have Catseye, not because Yelmalio is "the only sky god worshipped with mych frequency by [outsiders]... and gives his father [Catseye]" but because, to them, it is an aspect/subcult of Yelm. IMG, I'd have Yelmalio as a fork of the Yelm cult, that sat beside the Archer level but allowed the worshipper to be folded back into the Yelm cult at the Sun Lord or Elder levels if they choose to lead, Much like how a Vingan can become an Orlanth Rex member.

50 minutes ago, JRE said:

Kuschile archery cannot be taught normally, so we should stop using RW analogues, and obviously is not useful for horse nomads as they do not normally learn it. However it should work for Impala riders, or the list of gifts and geas for them should be changed.

No, Kuschile is only for Yelmalio cultists as we know them: foot-soldiers, with little experience of horses. My point about kids was a stupid one, I'll admit.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

They could worship Pole Star for that.

You have no soul, Pete 🤣
Anyway, why take on a foreign god to do the job already taken by one of your own? I'm down with them pushing their Sun god on the Dara Happans, but they are unlikely to take a walker god  when they already have a servicable god themselves.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No.

As Jeff noted the Grazelanders are Pure Horse People and descend directly from Yelm and can contact Yelm directly.

As I noted, the Yelm cult fully encapsulates the stories of Yelm the Youth (adventurous), Yelm the Archer, Yelm the Sun Lord, and Yelm Imperator (ruler).

They don't need Yelmalio to fill those mythic roles.

But he is there. There is a very good reason why the Grazers would still worship Kargzant/Lightfore: because you have to protect your herds at night too. Yelm/Yu-Kargzant gets Catseye from Yelmalio/Kargzant/Lightfore. He wouldn't get that from a bunch of footsoldiers, he'd get it from the cult of nocturnal guardians.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Dawn is about 1600 years ago and what people called the sun then isn't really material for RQ, dontcha think?

This conversation, now taken out of context, was about Yelmalio. Some enterprising Yelmalio cultist Heroquested and found a link to 1st Age Kargzanti Horse Archers. Kuschile archery is a leg up for a bunch of foot soldiers. My guess would be that it would also be taught to Grazer kids, who aren't great riders (yet), as defense against attack.

1 hour ago, Eff said:

Well, to bring it back to non-Chaotic Telmori, I think you can view "Pure Ones" as a kind of political football that gets kicked back and forth between being an attempt at respectability politics and being a justification for prejudice and violence. 

Yes, they are talked about, but as they shun outsiders and are generally shy, and retiring, they can be regarded as cryptids. As such, good luck trying to join them, as they'd rather stick hot needles in their eyes, than have an outsider interfere in their shizzle.

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Imperial Sun is an epithet made by an outsider scribe and not one necessarily made by the Grazers themselves.  Yu has the sense of godhood about it rather than Emperor.  Hence Yu-Kargzant reads to me like God of Kargzant with time and custom turning the title into a proper name (cf Jupiter whose name is literally "Sky Father").

Most Pentan Sun worshippers are members of a specific tribe.  Whether other solar tribes have any is kinda beyond the scope of the forum.

Higher-Kargzant, though I do remember that there was supposed to be some shade thrown at whether he was considered Yelm by the Lowland Pelorians/Dara Happans. There was a whole "Empty Emperor/Puppet Emperor" piece, with the Horse people concealed by curtains, which we never took to final art for GRoY. It was sketched but we hadn't decided on who was represented in court.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Because they are Yelm worshippers, and there is an entire set of myths about Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Archer, etc.  Yelmalio is not needed there when they can fully embrace all aspects of Yelm.

So, you don't see any confusion in mine and Jeffs' posts? 🤨

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

If I recall, Greg figured that Kuschile Horse Archery dates from when the Pelorian Kargzant was recognized as Yelmalio in the First Age. As Yelmalio is also the solar horse god, it meant that the cult members of the Peloria hills could serve as mounted archery without being particularly good horsemen.

If Kargzant=Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is the sun-horse, why isn't Yelmalio worshipped as such in the Grazelands? you'd assume they are very adept Kuschile archers. it makes me think that Yelmalio is Orlanth Adventurous, to Yelms' Orlanth Rex.

On 5/19/2022 at 6:28 PM, jean said:

There is one on sale on the Jonstown Compendium.

 

Ooh, sounds intersting. Are they any good? I don't know the artist.

On 5/21/2022 at 11:23 AM, Akhôrahil said:

There's a very nice map - better even - inside the Dorastor book. I presume it's the color map that you lost?

Do you mean the nice map with the giant sleeping?

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Oh, the map fragment?  I always thought it was a piece of artful misdirection, to give confidence or maybe over confidence.  But it does really match the ruins map, it is just incomplete , and there is no deception in it being labeled a map fragment.  And the aerial view in the book is an aerial view. The fragment is unlabeled too, and the book even says Daravala's advice on it will be wrong.    Your players need to do their own recon and that is no accident, clear in the scenario and I have no heartburn about it.

Well, I don't see it's correlation, so it must be me.

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The oddity for me was neither the map fragment nor the aerial view, but the Key to the Ruins on p.73 (and some of the text about entering the ruins) which clearly works off of another (likely original) map that was not included (probably replaced by the aerial view).  You're left trying to work out the association between the text there and the aerial view.

Yeah, there is some issue with maps in the 2 scenario books: They just don't seem to match the descriptions. In the case of Miskanders Tower, it's obvious that the AD was never told of the original maps. In this case i suspect similarly.

Hi, I'm gonna be moving my Aggar campaign to Dorastor, and was reminded that my copy of Dorastor lacked the bleeding map 😂
Does anyone have a scan of it, or access to a decent map of Dorastor? I know it's a long shot, but i thought it worth asking.

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Clearly not.

OK, so, trying not to be such a dick about this, I do see EpicureanDMs point. Traditionally (i.e.RQI&II) Yelmalio was painted as an adventurer cult. A lot of his mythology can be seen as "a plucky god, goes it alone, and in his adversity, he shines". Rurik, in all those examples, isn't part of a militia. He is part of a band*.
It was only with MOBs' Sun County (RQIII), that a lot of folks realised that Yelmalios real lesson was "if you go it alone, expect to get the sh*t kicked out of you!". His cult was given context, and  it was portrayed as a cultural cult.
Every game since then, despite pushing cultural play, portrays a rag-tag group of disparate adventurers, be that HQG or RQG.
Looking at RQG, he is again depicted as an adventurers cult, and it it can be inferred that players can come from multiple cultures, and join together as a band. it does undermine the whole militia conceit.

That said, in my own game, we have a sole Yelmalion, and he seems pretty happy in that he is a sole believer amongst a bunch of mangy Orlanthi.

*He also dies a terrible end because he wasn't part of a militia, which is hilarious.