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Just now, Atgxtg said:

Yeah,  but they arn't actually "tin" or "copper". Maybe someday someone will clarify just how close the analogues are. Is Glorantha iron magnetic? Is there magnetism on Glorantha? I bet the Mostali would know. 

There were "compasses" in RQ2. It was some kind of "tin" nail iirc, that pointed to Magasta's Pool. It had something to do with the Sky Rune.

On 8/21/2018 at 1:14 AM, M Helsdon said:

Making a good javelin, much like making a decent bow, is a job for a specialist, not a carpenter. A javelin requires the services of a redsmith, a leatherworker (for the ankyle) and a skilled wood crafter.

Carpenters make carts, wagons, doors etc. not precision weapons.

It would be a mighty poor carpenter that couldn't make a balanced javelin shaft. Javelins predate Homo sapiens  by 80000 years: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131126-oldest-javelins-stone-weapons-projectiles-human-evolution-science/

So if a Homo heidelbergensis was able to make a javelin shaft, I think that it doesn't require very trained or specialized workforce, just some suitable wood. Therefore shafts' prices should reflect the amount of wood used, and the rarity of suitable wood. And since javelin shafts require less wood than spear shafts, they should be cheaper.

11 hours ago, Furry Fella said:

You have to relate the Income and the standard of living in the charater professions. Plus there is absolutely no way a practiced crafter's gross margin (sales of goods ;less expenses to make them) nets only 2L a week go look at the prices and costs associated with living. Secondly these are disposable incomes for Characters so they are away 40% of the time - there being no penalty to income generation roles for absences of 3 weeks per season. This stuff is in the between adventures stuff. Equally a "Hide" of land generating max gross margin income of only 80L for something that takes several weeks to plow - please! Your own quote shoots your position down. take that 80L as net disposable income and the problem is solved. Equally you are assuming that much is not made and or achieved at lower cost. I'm a mix cropping and pastoral farmer with wood lots or rights to same. I want need leather or curoboilli similar armour for fyrd duty well I can supply the cured hide. I can supply the timber and hides for shield. Quilted Linothorax is actually producible at my steading - it was for the entire darkages and medieval period - as it is simply multiple layers of cloth stuffed tightly with wool generally ( but substances will do) and stitched to hold all in place very good BBC Doco had experimental archaeologists doing it in reasonable time to a high standard in days with only general instruction. As a farmer I'm a decent jackleg carpenter or wood worker so that's my spear shaft etc.

From RQG:

"The adventurer’s income represents the amount of income
they make before their expenses from Standard of Living are
deducted. Any remaining income is profit, and can be used
by the adventurer, or re-invested into additional property.

After determining their occupation income, an adventurer
must pay to maintain their Standard of Living.

After paying for their Standard of Living, any occupation
income left gets added to the adventurer’s personal wealth. If
the occupation income is insufficient to maintain the Standard
of Living for that occupation, the adventurer can pay
out of their personal wealth."

So that 80 L for a crafter is a what a crafter household earns on a normal year, and what they use to pay for their living expenses, not the amount they make extra on top of their living expenses.

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Unfortunately the majority of Near Eastern (including Assyrian) bronze arrowheads suffer from extensive bronze disease corrosion (cuprous chloride in the copper alloy reacts with water to create hydrochloric acid which eats away at the bronze, and in turn reacts with the copper, ultimately resulting in a covering of green fuzz). After many centuries the original state of the head cannot be accurately assessed. Iron arrowheads rust, with a similar outcome. It is rare to find an ancient bronze or iron arrowhead in good condition, unless it is recovered from a very dry environment. Most of the ancient arrowheads you see on sale aren't very ancient.

Speaking of, does Gloranthan bronze suffer from that too, and do iron weapons rust?

On 8/21/2018 at 8:43 PM, Atgxtg said:

Perhaps. Most RPG price lists tend to be pretty bad overall. I used to get my playerslaughing in D&D by translating prices from gp to weight in gold, and the nightmare of logistics. Magics items were literally worth more than their weight in gold, which was fine until you realized just how commonplace magic was, and what it meant to the economy. A good magic sword could literally cost a ton on gold, and a leader outfitting his troops with even +1 weapons is going to need a heckova supply line, and the city of El Dorado to pay for it.

Not that any of that helps with RQ bow prices, but at least we don't have it as bad. If you want to, just divide the prices by 10 or 100, or assume that the Gloranthan Yu tree is much rarer and harder to cultivate, and takes longer to dry than the Terran Yew tree. Perhaps Yu only grows in Snakepike Hollow!

 

Haha, yeah it gets a bit silly, otoh carrying a ton of gold isn't much of a problem if you have a bag of holding

In RQ3 if you wanted to buy a broadsword, you had to give the smith about the sword's weight in silver coins. That at least has changed in RQG.

12 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

No, because they have to be far straighter and well balanced than a thrusting spear, requiring more work on the shaft. A wonky javelin is far less likely to hit the target.

A carpenter makes a 1.5L a week, so even when if a more balanced shaft requires a day more of whittling, planing, and filing, it wouldn't raise the price over what the extra bronze and wood would cost for a spear.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Spears tend to be expensive, especially if they are made of coppiced wood, which provides a stronger shaft than a spear made from split planks. Atlatl, to be effective, have to be made very carefully; if the shaft isn't perfectly straight then it isn't going to work very well.

As for the price of bows, whilst arrows are supposedly covered by the cost of a quiver, historically, a sheaf of arrows could cost more than a self bow (including a long bow). In the 14th century, a sheaf of 24 arrows for a long bow cost 16d (one shilling and four pence). As few players or GMs keep a tally of munitions, the cost of a RuneQuest bow also covers an endless supply of arrows. 

Yes, spears weren't the cheapest of weapons, but javelins require much less wood and metal, so they should be cheaper than spears. Fom: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291766619_Late_Bronze_and_Early_Iron_Age_bronze_spear-_and_javelinheads_in_Bulgaria_in_the_context_of_Southeastern_Europe "The way to distinguish javelinheads from spearheads is to take in consideration the size and the weight of the ends. The first type weighs less than 150 g and is between 6 and 15 cm in length. The second kind has weight between 300–500 g and length between 20 and 50 cm."

And while making a good atlatl requires some skill and work, it doesn't require weeks of whittling. I don't think that one stick should be equivalent to what a cottar makes in a season.

RQG arrows seem to cost about 0.2L, so a sheaf of 24 arrows without a quiver would be 4.8L. This is relatively more expensive compared to the Medieval prices, but bronze in RQG is more expensive than iron was in the Middle Ages, so I think that it looks about right. I've used the same system that's in RQG, ie. the players have to keep a tally of the arrows, but buying new ones is included in the living expenses (along with new scales for scale armour, sword sharpening etc.)

In addition to bows, some other simple weapons also have inflated prices. Eg. atlatl costs 10L, when its accurate description is "A short stick with a socket at one end". Javelins cost more than spears, but they need much less metal. The staff in staff sling costs 9L. And two darts cost as much as a sword.

Now missile weapons are effective, but their prices shouldn't reflect how good they are, but instead the costs of making one.

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Praxian nomads aren't moving everyday. camp is set up and the herd either is grazing ahead or towards you. When the range between camp and graze becomes impractical, you move. Big moves are across poor areas. You may be camped for a week, that's plenty of time. Sinew dries very fast, I have prepared and used sinew that dried with in 24 hours. Skins are prepared in stages, easy to move, horn preparation has plenty of time.

Look at neolithic technologies, they are the closest to the Praxians eg

https://www.braintan.com/articles/brainbones&hotsprings.html

https://sensiblesurvival.org/2011/11/07/preparing-and-using-sinew/

It's also no coincidence that the Bighorns oasis has sheep

http://www.heartwoodbows.com/Bighorn_sheep_bows.html

These are two good resources:

https://www.amazon.com/Native-American-bows-T-Hamilton/dp/B0006C4FXA (my local library had this)

https://www.amazon.com/Arrows-Native-Americans-Step-Step/dp/1599210835/ much cheaper!

This next one is my favourite, it gives you good practical handling experience of materials that aren't fiddly bows or arrows!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drums-Tomtoms-Rattles-Percussion-Instruments/dp/0486218899

The most common glue is from the natural slime of the giant praxian sand slug. Children are often sent out to hunt these before they grow too big. 

As for costs, most of the materials are free, the actual cost is time related. There aren't any specific praxian crafters for bows, everyone makes their own or shares in part of the process. 

 

Nice!

Would you, or anyone else, happen to know if IRL nomad tribes had designated bowyers, or was it something that every man had to learn himself? Or were full time bowyers only employed by some warlords?

7 hours ago, Furry Fella said:

The problem is you are comparing cost to the characters net disposable income AFTER All living and family expenses NOT to a wage. Take you wage and deduct food, housing, clothing, tools, family etc and see where it gets you. As an example by the 14th century a man-at-arms  armour cost several years disposable income for the holder of a single manor, often more than the total cash receipts taken by even a quite well of minor knight. That is why raising troops by indenture was so much used and why loot was so blood important - almost all your pay even for a knight was absorbed by paying your commander for your kit and caboodle plus feeding you.

Nah, I'm not. A Gloranthan crafter makes about 80L a year or 2L a week, and and it's difficult for them to save any of it if they want to keep their normal standard of living. So using the current prices, commoners can't afford the weapons they are supposed to use.

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

One of the many reasons for the Iceni Revolt was that the Romans took away their weapons. One of the reasons the Angles took over East Anglia so easily was that the Iceni were stripped of all their weapons after the revolt.

Interesting, was this something that Romans did elsewhere?

Awesome pics!

7 hours ago, styopa said:

Bow?  Absolutely routine.  Commonplace, even.  Sure, some places had great stands of terrific wood and made better bows than others, but the MAKING of a bow was pretty straightforward, straightforward enough that they were pretty much a standard peasant's tool for hunting.  Bows were made of wood; wood was everywhere.

Sword?  HIGHLY uncommon.  Not only were the materials and expertise for making them expensive, they really were optimal for killing people.  For Joe Serf, a good solid knife was many times more useful.

Good info on http://www.bow-international.com/features/traditional/native-bow-woods/ including (what may be surprising to some) that English Yew...was NOT ideal for bowmaking.

Yeah, this exactly.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Where tolerated.

When you have a strong centralized power (like e.g. the Roman Empire, after having dealt with the Iceni revolt), you may take a dim look at native farmers having tools that could be used against your military.

The ancient world invented castes to deal with this problem. Wielding a weapon became a privilege.

Doesn't it follow that rather than giving the price for a bow, the rules should give a price for the tools to make one, and the time it needs? Seriously. Much like weapon proficiency with a firearm should include proper maintenance and repairs, shouldn't proficiency with a self bow include making a replacement?

 

That article ties its usefulness to the too moderate and clement climate. Let me note that the heyday of the English Longbow followed a Little Ice Age (the one that destroyed the Greenland colony of Icelanders), so the yew harvested following that century may have been way better suited.

I've read that the Qin dynasty confiscated weapons, but not that the Roman Empire tried it. And I haven't read about the Lunar Empire trying to confiscate Sartarite or Pavisite weapons. Giving hunters and bow using soldiers and warriors some percentage on Craft(Bowyer) would make sense, but all archers didn't make their own bows. Adding rules for bowmaking would be great.

Continuing on composite bows. Sure, some were posh status symbols for kings and nobles, like the 100k $ Beretta shotguns of today. But your average nomad could also afford a composite bow, while he couldn't afford a sword or a metal armor.

19 hours ago, Humakt said:

My work is related with trees, so I’m curious about that price on yew, a mature timber of yew is rare to have so to make bow may be is not very old ones? From branches? Or it must have any special characteristics or part of the tree?

Adding to what others have posted about bowstaves, here's a cross cut of a longbow found on the Mary Rose:

10 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Lets see. According to your source later 1460s (the highest price) is 2 shillings per bow. 2 shillings is 24d, or close to a month's pay. The lowesr price, 1 shilling (12d) is about two weeks pay. There is no longbow in RQ2, but there was one in RQ3, with the same price as the composite bow, so we can use that price, 150L here.  That does seem high compared to the prices for swords. So I think you've proved your point. 

 

That price, 1 months wage, matches up with what I had above in pence.

 

The problem here is that we have little to go on regarding a weeks wage in Glorantha. All we have is a note that 1L is worth 1£  ,pre-WWII . If it's 40L/week we'd be in the 1 month's pay territory. If 80L/week then 2 weeks pay. Either are nice as far as thinking in terms of an hourly (1L or 2L per hour) or daily wage ( 8L or 16L pey day) , not that they would think that way. I suspect that 40L per day is too high though.

I meant a crafter's wage, not an untrained labourer's. In 1460s a thatcher (ie. not the best earning craftsman) would have made 5.5p a day according to http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html so the more expensive bow would have cost under a week's wage. And as for a Gloranthan crafter's weekly wage, that would range from 1.5 to 4 (p. 65 in RQG, and working 40 weeks a year).

RQ3 lunars are worth about RQG's clacks. In the RQ3 Deluxe Edition self bows' prices were 150L, and longbows' and composite bows' were 350L, which would also have been too high.

Bows cost too much in all RPGs I've seen. My guess is that Arneson and Gygax just made all the weapons doing the same damage cost about the same, and everyone's been copying them.

4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Note that Gloranthan (and terrestrial Near East) self bows are not European longbows (and yes, the European longbow of yew goes back to the Neolithic)

Just to confuse things, longbows are self bows, but the term self bow covers a wide variety of materials and at this point of the Hero Wars there are no longbows in central Genertela, save in the hands of rare Rathori mercenaries.

Yeah, I know. I was just asking his opinion about the prices.

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Can't be bothered to look up the prices in RQG, but a self bow should be cheaper than a composite bow which should be cheaper than a longbow.

Elf Bows should be the most expensive, but they are just grown on an elf bow tree and are given out free to Aldryami. Since nobody else can use them, they are effectively useless to humans.

 

Self bows are 50 L, composite bows are 150 L, and Elf bows don't have a price. The prices should be divided by 25 in my opinion.

Why should the composite bows be cheaper than the longbows? They require much more work and material to make?

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Do you have a source for that? I've seen prices for yew bowstaves at 2£ per 100, or about 5d each , which would be about a week's wage. But I haven't seen the price for a finished longbow, 

which typically took up 4 years to produce, and which would probably have been reflected in the final price. I also know that the price for Medieval arms and armor were deliberately inflated to help restrict ownership to the proper classes.  

Here's a source for the longbow prices: http://web.mit.edu/21h.416/www/militarytechnology/longbow.html I've seen many other sources too putting the price in the same ballpark. And it didn't take a lot of active work for the bowyer, the long time was needed for the material to dry. And even if the wood had to be imported, it didn't raise the price to half a year's pay. The low price implies that if a bowyer hadn't just started his shop, he could manufacture a new bow from his raw materials in a few days. So self bows should be significantly cheaper that swords, and even cheaper than spears.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Whilst self bows were relatively cheap in the ancient world, a composite bow was far more expensive in terms of labor and time, with the best taking a very long time to make (often bows were glued together and left for the winter to 'set' whilst being periodically checked).

Correct, composite bows required more than just wood, and they required more work too, and were easier to botch up. But they were still relatively cheap. A Manchu archery site: http://www.manchuarchery.org/bow-and-arrow-prices-1802 says that a composite bow cost about a month's wage for a crafter. Now the source is much later, but proles' quality of living changed relatively little before the industrialization.

6 minutes ago, womble said:

How about a nice round metric 5g...?  Is the difference going to matter very often? ("That King's Ransom, paid in Bolgs is going to take 6 carts to shift, not 5...")

 

Enquiring minds just want to know

As per title, how much cattle would an average poor, normal, or a wealthy clan have? From half to double the numbers compared to the human population?

26 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Obviously the former are what the Etyries merchants calibrate their scales to while the latter are what your average adventuring party receives - well clipped by cunning clan chiefs.

Hah, those would be quite clipped coins. i wonder how clipped were the ancient coins?

A longbow cost about a week's wage for a Medieval English crafter, not a half year's wage. Why are bows so expensive in RQ? Is it for game balance?

The Guide to Glorantha 1 says that lunars weigh 0.2 troy oz, ie. about 6g, while the Runequest Roleplaying in Glorantha says that lunars weigh about 4g or 1/8 of an ounce. Which is it?